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Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

For the original series, Roddenberry wanted an action adventure series intermixed with morality tales about current events that he could get past the network censors. At least, that's what he says in interviews later in life. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. I wasn't born until '79. Looking at the series, it seems to be true. In TNG, he developed the "holier than thou" edict where there's no conflict between people of the Federation.
 
Let me repost this here

Reasons why JJ should be involved with ST 4 ( based on the 1967 Writer's Guide)

1967 Writer's Guide said:
I. Build your episode on an action-adventure frame-
work.
We must reach out, hold and entertain
a mass audience of some 20.,000,000 people
or we
simply don't stay on the air.

II. Tell your story about people, not about science
and gadgetry.
Joe Friday doesn't stop to explain
the mechanics of his .38 before he uses it; Kildare
never did a monologue about the theory of anes-
thetics; Matt Dillon never identifies and dis-
cusses the breed of his horse before he rides
off on it.

This speaks more to the "essence" of Star Trek than Kirk's serial number, Caitian make up and time it takes to get to Vulcan







THE TEASER
We open with action, always establishing a strong
jeopardy, need, or other “hook". It is not
necessary to establish all the back story in the
teaser. Instead, we tantalize the audience with
a promise of excitement to come. For example,
it can be as simple as everyone tense on the
bridge, hunting down a marauding enemy ship...
then a tale-telling blip is sighted on the screen.
and the Captain orders “ALL HANDS TO BATTLE STATIONS."
Fade out, that's enough

STYLE
We maintain a fast pace ... avoid long philosophical
exchanges or tedious explanations of equipment.


And note that our cutting technique is to use the
shortest possible time between idea and execution
of it
.., like, for instance, Kirk decides that a
landing party will transport down to a planet ...
HARD CUT to lights blinking on the Transporter
console, PULL BACK to REVEAL the landing party
stepping into the Transporter.

I think JJ and hopefully, JL gets it. ;)

This speaks more to the "essence" of Star Trek than Kirk' serial number, Caitian make up or the distance to Vulcan.
 
Here's the thing: I think that Abrams Trek did keep to the essence of TOS, while adding a more contemporary feel and opening it up to a new audience who might not enjoy it or explore it.

Visually, maybe, but the writing and characterizations are way over-simplified and caricatured. And in the case of Kirk, inverted, particularly in the first film. The grim, studious, "stack of books with legs" Kirk has been replaced with a smirking frat boy hiding under womens' beds from their roommates.

CBS needs a demonstration of profitability first.
Decades of successful programming that have brought over a billion dollars to the studio.

Why is that a "slap in the Prime fans face?" :confused:

I'm trying to follow, but I'll admit, I'm struggling here. Please take my questions as legitimate curiosity of your point of view.

It's one thing entirely to have an AU where things happen differently, leaving the original timeline intact.

It's quite another thing to tell fans of the original timeline that "we're gonna take your timeline and make it go away and replace it with ours Essentially, it amounts to rubbing Prime fans' faces in the fact that NuTrek is now the only property CBS/Paramount gives a crap about. It's deliberately hurtful.

Ironically, I think 09 and ID would be better received if they had just "clean" rebooted, but they didn't. They chose to invoke the Prime universe in their origin story, therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too, and Prime fans rightly cried "foul!"
 
therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.
No. They ignored those rules because they're ridiculous.

The temporal prime directive is the stupidest fucking thing in the history of television.
 
CBS needs a demonstration of profitability first.
Decades of successful programming that have brought over a billion dollars to the studio.

Ford Motor Co. manufactured the Model T for almost twenty years, selling about fifteen million of them. The T was probably the most important and influential production automobile in history.

Then it was over. Ford and the automotive industry moved on.

TPTB understand that the same is true of oldTrek. Hence, Abrams and whoever succeeds him to create the next new version of Trek.

Oh, and "temporal prime directive?" Of all the trivial crap - not one potential viewer out of a couple hundred thousand would give that kind of nonsense a second thought and most who did would shrug it off.
 
Visually, maybe, but the writing and characterizations are way over-simplified and caricatured. And in the case of Kirk, inverted, particularly in the first film. The grim, studious, "stack of books with legs" Kirk has been replaced with a smirking frat boy hiding under womens' beds from their roommates.
Ok, I took you seriously up to that paragraph. really? Captain Kirk was never a stack of books with legs. was he smart? yes. was he highly educaded? of course. but he was an daring, adventurous ladies man first and foremost. maybe even too adventurous for Starfleet standards. through all of TOS. we only know about his academy years - being a 'stack of books' - from hearsay and nothing in 09 contradicts that. NuKirk made it through academy in record time, and I doubt this had happend because he was a good looking, smirking frat boy. in any case, he probably spent most of his time reading and learning during those years, but 09 never showed us that, because it is boring and doesn't make a good story. instead we fast forward a couple of years to his graduation year and the Kobayashi Maru where he already was very much like TOS Kirk. but in the time between joining Starfleet and graduating it is highly unlikely all he did was sleeping with women.
 
Visually, maybe, but the writing and characterizations are way over-simplified and caricatured. And in the case of Kirk, inverted, particularly in the first film. The grim, studious, "stack of books with legs" Kirk has been replaced with a smirking frat boy hiding under womens' beds from their roommates.

He was raised differently, but... since he graduated in three years, I think the stack of books with legs is still applicable. Besides, Kirk wasn't some angel when he was younger. In TOS, there's Areel Shaw, Janet Wallace, Carol Marcus, Ruth...

Ironically, I think 09 and ID would be better received if they had just "clean" rebooted, but they didn't. They chose to invoke the Prime universe in their origin story, therefore bringing it's rules (esp the Temporal Prime Directive) into play. Then they ignore those rules for their story's sake.

You mean the Temporal Prime Directive that no one paid any attention to unless they needed a complication for any given episode? Where were the time cops at when Janeway was disrupting the timeline or during Daniels shenanigans?

They tried to have their cake and eat it too, and Prime fans rightly cried "foul!"

They tried to make something inclusive and have gotten pissed on for the last seven years for their effort.
 
I choose to believe that the time agents actually did try to stop Nero, and got blasted from existence for their trouble. Or were also pulled into that wormhole, and stranded without a paddle in one of those timelines we saw in 'Parallels'.

Which brings me to my next point - look at all the time travel in Star Trek. Exactly how many times did the time agents achieve anything?

Are we really taking Mitchell's opinion seriously? Based on Mitchell's idea of flirting and professionalism, he probably meant Kirk would stupidly conduct a civil conversation with the women before he jumped into bed. And I imagine that compared to Finney, he was quiet and well behaved. I'll take Carols word for it, and she has David as proof that Kirk had actually had sex before the 5 year mission.

Plus, you can both party and be studious. I go to law school. Friday and Sunday nights are how we deal with endless monotony for five years straight. You do 6 hours of Property Law, and see if you don't feel the urge to drink.

I'm a Prime fan, and I wouldn't even give Bad Robot a yellow card. Based on the two review threads, a very large majority of Trekkies were perfectly fine with the new movies. Some fans weren't and they can dislike whatever they want. But there was no 'Prime fan cry.'
 
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Captain Kirk was never a stack of books with legs. was he smart? yes. was he highly educaded? of course. but he was an daring, adventurous ladies man first and foremost. maybe even too adventurous for Starfleet standards. through all of TOS. we only know about his academy years - being a 'stack of books' - from hearsay and nothing in 09 contradicts that.

Kirk confirmed in "Shore Leave" that as a cadet he was "positively grim." I'd call that more than hearsay.

Also, "first and foremost" is a poor choice of words for Kirk's "ladies' man" characterization. At first, in the early first season, Kirk was portrayed as anything but a womanizer. He was initially written as an extremely serious, dutiful military officer with no time for the distractions of the flesh. In "The Corbomite Maneuver," he complained about being assigned a female yeoman because he had no time for the distraction. In "Mudd's Women," he was the only human male in the crew who was essentially unaffected by the women's allure. In "Miri," Rand is upset because he doesn't look at her legs. The only times he shows romantic interest in Rand or any other member of his crew is when he's in an altered mental state ("The Enemy Within," "The Naked Time," "Dagger of the Mind"). In "Dagger," he was deeply embarrassed and uncomfortable about having danced and flirted with Helen Noel at the Christmas party, and a deleted line would've explained that he'd only done so in the first place because he'd thought she was a civilian passenger.

Although we saw hints of his off-duty romantic life in episodes like "Shore Leave," "Court Martial," and "The Menagerie," the "womanizer" portrayal didn't really emerge in full until the second season. And though that was presumably due in part to Shatner's own personality affecting the writing of the character, it was mainly because pretty much all male action leads in '60s and '70s TV were expected to be womanizers and have frequent romantic entanglements with one-time guest stars. Ironically, the trait that we tend to consider a defining attribute of Jim Kirk was actually one that made Kirk a less distinct personality than he'd been to start with and turned him more into a generic TV hero.


So the new Kirk is actually distinct in personality from the original. He's closer to the popular caricature of who Kirk is than who Kirk Prime actually was. But that's justified in the movie, because the timeline changed and his father died right after he was born. Abrams Kirk was raised without a father and thus became much more of a renegade than his more studious counterpart. We're also meeting him at a considerably earlier point in his life, so he's less seasoned. So the new Kirk isn't supposed to be like the original. But his arc in the movies is about his growth into the Kirk we know -- his process of growing beyond that immature renegade and developing into the great leader he has the potential to become.

It's like Arrow. The Oliver Queen of that series isn't like the Green Arrow of the comics, but that's because the whole series has been a long-form origin story showing how he became the Green Arrow. The Abrams movies are the same way. They're an extended origin story whose end point is a version of Kirk, Spock, and the others who are essentially the people we knew from TOS. So of course they're different from the characters we know, because they haven't become those characters yet.
 
Captain Kirk was never a stack of books with legs. was he smart? yes. was he highly educaded? of course. but he was an daring, adventurous ladies man first and foremost. maybe even too adventurous for Starfleet standards. through all of TOS. we only know about his academy years - being a 'stack of books' - from hearsay and nothing in 09 contradicts that.

Kirk confirmed in "Shore Leave" that as a cadet he was "positively grim." I'd call that more than hearsay.

That was likely his first year while he was still trying to fit in.
 
We do know he cheated. Not exactly the actions of somone totally on the straight and narrow.

The more 'mature', looser and 'better' Kirk does proceed to chase down and kick the stuffing out of the Finnegan hallucination over some taunting and a decade old grudge (right after a giant rabbit incident no less). I'd personally say that sounds more 'wound up' than just ignoring him like he did in school.
 
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We do know he cheated. Not exactly the actions of somone totally on the straight and narrow.

I also doubt his flaunting of authority is something that only surfaced once he became a starship commander.
 
It's like Arrow. The Oliver Queen of that series isn't like the Green Arrow of the comics, but that's because the whole series has been a long-form origin story showing how he became the Green Arrow. The Abrams movies are the same way.
please, I like NuTrek and I find it deeply unfair to compare those two movies to that bad Starling City 90210 CW melodrama. They are better than that.
 
Characters evolve. Especially in serial fiction. The Kirk we meet in WNMHGB isn't fully realised yet. Shatner has yet to put his stamp on it yet. The writers aren't writing for Shatner yet. Same for Nimoy and Spock.
 
Characters evolve. Especially in serial fiction. The Kirk we meet in WNMHGB isn't fully realised yet. Shatner has yet to put his stamp on it yet. The writers aren't writing for Shatner yet. Same for Nimoy and Spock.

It does seem clear the writers were writing for Hunter's Pike early in the series.
 
Yeah, that's exactly who Christopher's description reminded me of. Right down to complaining about the female officer.

And of course, Kirks middle name evolved alongside his personality. ;)
 
please, I like NuTrek and I find it deeply unfair to compare those two movies to that bad Starling City 90210 CW melodrama. They are better than that.

Speak for yourself. A lot of us love the CW DC universe. So I intended no slight.


It does seem clear the writers were writing for Hunter's Pike early in the series.

Exactly. The TOS characters were initially just the "Cage" characters renamed. Kirk was Pike, McCoy was Boyce, Rand was Colt. Another producer might've simply recast the roles and kept the names, but Roddenberry liked to change the names (indeed, he didn't settle on Pike as the captain's name until a week before filming on "The Cage," IIRC). Perhaps he was already thinking in terms of recycling the first pilot as a "historical" story. But he didn't change the writing of the characters, not until the actors themselves began to put their mark on the roles.

Indeed, it wasn't unprecedented for characters in the TV of the era to be pretty interchangeable. Maverick was written for a single lead, but it was changed to two brothers (and occasionally more) so they could shoot two episodes at once and stay on schedule. But the scripts were written generically, with the actors assigned to them randomly; the only difference was in how the actors played the roles. There's also Mission: Impossible, where Nimoy's Paris was exactly the same character as Martin Landau's Rollin Hand, with only the name and actor changed, and the same went for most of the other cast changes over the course of the show.

Then, of course, there was Roddenberry's later recycling act in TNG. Picard, Riker, Troi, and Data were basically the same characters as the more seasoned Kirk, Will Decker, Ilia, and Xon from the abortive Phase II series, although Data also drew on the title character from Roddenberry's The Questor Tapes pilot movie.
 
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