Primarily its awful start. Ratings never recovered after A Night in Sickbay, despite a big improvement in seasons 3-4, and who can blame people for giving up on show after that episode? It makes And The Children Shall Lead watchable.
Outspoken Marina Sirtis Interview
- Thread starter HaplessCrewman
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Primarily its awful start. Ratings never recovered after A Night in Sickbay, despite a big improvement in seasons 3-4, and who can blame people for giving up on show after that episode? It makes And The Children Shall Lead watchable.
I think I've probably taken the conversation away from the overall discussion of Marina's interview, dwelling on one specific comment. As I stated, it just hit a sore spot for me. Is there nothing that you liked but you were in the minority - where criticism of it would cause you to recoil?
I wish I could somehow travel to a parallel universe in which Marina's and Denise's roles never were switched and see Marina as Macha and with whom they would have filled the third seat after Denise!Troi left 
I have to disagree with her on Denise though. For starters -- Denise's acting wasn't that great and the show needed the improvements it made later; she was dead weight.
And other reasons: there was nothing to do with Yar. Despite what Marina said, she seems to think there was some kind of Earth-bound show like in dramas on TV during that period, where you can do all sorts of things and go all sorts of places; the crew were on the ship the vast majority of the show and going to empty space or alien worlds. What were they going to do with her they didn't do with Marina? Or Gates? Nothing, that's what. We got more out of Yar after she died than we'd have ever gotten with her alive. I'd trade seven years of Yar for "Yesterday's Enterprise" anyday. I'd trade seven years of an on again/off again relationship with Data for the Sela character and episodes, anyday.
I remember reading in Starlog (or the magazine, or the later thick ST:The Magazine) that Roddenbury wanted to expand Worf's role and that in order to do that, Yar had to go. It makes sense now tih Marina's story -- somebody was going to go and the only thing that saved her was Majel's advice.
And I don't get the weight thing and uniform. One: she wasn't fat, two: how hard was is it to lose five pounds anyway, and three: you know what they did when TOS characters got FAT in the films? They tailored the suits to fit them.
And no way TNG was going to go on another two years unless it improved. She's clearly forgottenb the expression of looking at things in rose-colored glasses. Season six and seven were bad with few highlights, even worse in season seven. Anybody remember "Subrosa"? Or the polished turd that was "The Chase"? Thanks, but two more years of that was not needed.
And other reasons: there was nothing to do with Yar. Despite what Marina said, she seems to think there was some kind of Earth-bound show like in dramas on TV during that period, where you can do all sorts of things and go all sorts of places; the crew were on the ship the vast majority of the show and going to empty space or alien worlds. What were they going to do with her they didn't do with Marina? Or Gates? Nothing, that's what. We got more out of Yar after she died than we'd have ever gotten with her alive. I'd trade seven years of Yar for "Yesterday's Enterprise" anyday. I'd trade seven years of an on again/off again relationship with Data for the Sela character and episodes, anyday.
I remember reading in Starlog (or the magazine, or the later thick ST:The Magazine) that Roddenbury wanted to expand Worf's role and that in order to do that, Yar had to go. It makes sense now tih Marina's story -- somebody was going to go and the only thing that saved her was Majel's advice.
And I don't get the weight thing and uniform. One: she wasn't fat, two: how hard was is it to lose five pounds anyway, and three: you know what they did when TOS characters got FAT in the films? They tailored the suits to fit them.
And no way TNG was going to go on another two years unless it improved. She's clearly forgottenb the expression of looking at things in rose-colored glasses. Season six and seven were bad with few highlights, even worse in season seven. Anybody remember "Subrosa"? Or the polished turd that was "The Chase"? Thanks, but two more years of that was not needed.
The problem I see is that the same argument could have been made about Nemesis: plastering the "Star Trek" name on it did nothing to make it popular ... or good.
That was certainly interesting...
I have to admit though I did find some of her remarks rather snarky... especially those towards DS9 and Enterprise (and I am not a fan of Enterprise at all).
Humbleness is always important to me and regardless of how right she might have been about her and the rest of the casts popularity... I find it a bit wrong about her disparaging remarks towards the other shows...
The reality is having been in the business is they were at the right place at the right time for the show to be as successful as it was, it takes alot for a show to be successful, so many elements have to come together, not just the cast and I love TNG but after hearing this interview I thought she of all people would understand that, my respect for Sirtis has gone down a notch (I still like her, just not as much)
I have to admit though I did find some of her remarks rather snarky... especially those towards DS9 and Enterprise (and I am not a fan of Enterprise at all).
Humbleness is always important to me and regardless of how right she might have been about her and the rest of the casts popularity... I find it a bit wrong about her disparaging remarks towards the other shows...
The reality is having been in the business is they were at the right place at the right time for the show to be as successful as it was, it takes alot for a show to be successful, so many elements have to come together, not just the cast and I love TNG but after hearing this interview I thought she of all people would understand that, my respect for Sirtis has gone down a notch (I still like her, just not as much)
I totally agree with that. There should be some solidarity among Star Trek actors, regardless of the show or movie they are on. I thought that was pretty crass of her to do that, considering the fact that while I like Troi, she was pretty superfluous on that show, especially when Guinan was introduced. The show could have got along just fine with no Troi. That is considering TNG is my favorite incarnation after TOS, and the fact I like Sirtis, and can't stand Whoopi Goldberg.
It's no secret that Enterprise is the least popular Star Trek incarnation, but considering her show and fellow cast members got a lot of the same grief when TNG first started, you would think that she would have some sensitivity towards other shows, especially Enterprise. That show's biggest crime was being the last incarnation prior to the reboot, and airing at a time when there was Star Trek fatigue. And let's not forget that Sirtis was part of the reason Enterprise didn't have the finale it deserved, either. Dare I say she contributed to the worst Trek finale, ever, due to shoe horning her character onto a show in which she didn't belong.
It's just poor taste for Sirtis to pile on like that. I am sure she wouldn't appreciate it if Quinto or Pine said something similar about her show or characters, especially the fact that Nemesis was so unpopular that it lead to the reboot. The box office numbers of Star Trek 2009 and STID absolutely dwarf any and all TNG films.
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Thing is, she did say she understood the ENT actors being upset, that they essentially made it a TNG episode and that it was all a simulation. She's not disagreeing with any of that, just that slapping the Star Trek label on something doesn't mean it's going to be good, or that Trek fans will watch it uncritically, and she's right. ENT suffered from poor pacing, poor characterization, lazy writing, and just general mediocrity. I say that as someone who has warmed up to ENT over the years, but I still see it as it is; mediocre.
There is, though, a notion underpinning what Sirtis says that she leaves unvoiced: that the only legit Trek was TNG. Yes, ENT could have been better written and conceptualized. Yes, DS9 did not resonate with audiences the way TNG did. However, she misses major points about how the franchise was managed and the environment within which things were produced. TNG was still the marquee of Trek, and the performance of the films were, in general, lack luster. Voyager received most of the attention of the producers and the studio due to their involvement in UPN. It's a bit ballsy to say that the franchise was being dragged down when the most prominent aspects of the franchise were flagging themselves.
I recently met Marina Sirtis after many years of being a fan (she was also a teenage "movie star crush" for a while back when TNG was on) and I was really saddened to find that we did not mesh well at all.
Maybe I caught her on a bad day, but I couldn't find a common emotional/personal footing with her despite having two rather lengthy interactions with her. I don't think it's that she was being purposely rude, and I know I'm pretty restrained when it comes to celebrities (I might be giddy and super excited on the inside, but I make it a point to have a more "reserved enthusiasm" and treat them like any other person.)
It was just one of those awkward moments where you just don't hit it off, you're trying to be cordial, but she doesn't get what I'm trying to say and I don't get what she's trying to say.
I've never had a single unpleasant celebrity interaction, so I'm sad that this was the one for me. What are you going to do; you can't win 'em all.
Maybe I caught her on a bad day, but I couldn't find a common emotional/personal footing with her despite having two rather lengthy interactions with her. I don't think it's that she was being purposely rude, and I know I'm pretty restrained when it comes to celebrities (I might be giddy and super excited on the inside, but I make it a point to have a more "reserved enthusiasm" and treat them like any other person.)
It was just one of those awkward moments where you just don't hit it off, you're trying to be cordial, but she doesn't get what I'm trying to say and I don't get what she's trying to say.
I've never had a single unpleasant celebrity interaction, so I'm sad that this was the one for me. What are you going to do; you can't win 'em all.
Agreed, BT.
I don't dispute that Enterprise had a lot of issues. All I am saying is that there should be some solidarity among Star Trek actors, and I thought her statements about Enterprise weren't necessary.
Each actor will always be partial to their show. Also, it isn't to say that Trek actors need to gush about other trek shows. But at this point, Enterprise has been off the air 10 years. Is it still necessary to pile on it? Sirtis, in this case, almost comes off like TNG is the only "true" Trek besides TOS. Even though a lot of what she said about Enterprise and DS9 might ring true, it just doesn't need to be said. Besides, I think of the two, DS9 holds up a lot better than TNG's early season, at least, and the later TNG seasons (6 & 7) were sub par. And as pointed out, the TNG films were lack luster.
Just because TNG was the only spin off that was lucky enough to get feature film deals, doesn't necessarily make it the "true" successor to TOS. In fact, one could actually argue that because TNG hosed up the box office, it ruined it for the other shows having a feature film, or a mixed cast movie.
As a Niner, I don't agree with her POV on DS9, but she's entitled to it so not going to nitpick on the point.
One thing I did find odd was that she says how in S1 of TNG they had "too many women". Three on a cast of nine is too many? Seriously?
One thing I did find odd was that she says how in S1 of TNG they had "too many women". Three on a cast of nine is too many? Seriously?
Like Shatner and Takei?
People are people, they have their opinions, opinions which may differ from other people's opinions.
So Marina Sirtis has a relatively negative opinion of Enterprise compared to TNG. Fine. As long as she doesn't have a negative opinion of people who feel positively about Enterprise (which she neither said out straight, nor implied in that interview), then it's no big deal. She also made a comment on the fading numbers for my favourite Trek, DS9 over its run, following a big start, which I'm not irked by, because it's patently true. DS9 never did TNG numbers.
Unless you want celebrities to sign contracts that prohibit them from espousing opinions and behaving in ways that will offend the fanbase (pop idols have to do that in Japan BTW), then you have to accept that humans will be human.
I would point out that her opinions about DS9 were largely preformed and , to some extent, reflect an agenda. Interviews show that she was bagging on the "Hotel Trek" almost as soon as TNG went off the air. Along with those opinions she would also say that it would have been better for TNG to remain on the air as a series. Ironically, she had many negative things to say about Voyager (until she was a guest on several episodes) and JJTrek (until she wanted to voice the computer). Ultimately, her comments--though based in some facts--reflect her career ambitions.
I don't listen to Mission Log but I did listen to the Sirtis interview. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of some of the things she says (Her thoughts on DS9 over the years being one of the big things), but I really do like the in depth but casual interviews. You really get more out of these than you do on the special feature sets on the blu rays. There was a lot of stuff I liked here, such as her reactions to social media, Whoopi Goldberg coming to the cast, and reactions to These are the Voyages.
^Which may explain some of her reservations when it comes to ST: Enterprise. I mean, if TATV's her window on the series, you could see how she wouldn't exactly be crowing about it. She does acknowledge that they made it into a TNG episode; but what the producers had intended for TATV was to be a swan song for all the Star Trek series that had ended by that point - and not just ENT, whose more appropriate finale was Terra Nova. (Of course if that's really true, where are the callbacks to the other series in TATV, besides the parting shot of ships)?
But seriously, Hollywood, when scripts call for an older actor to play their younger selves, use CGI or rewrite the thing, m'kay? All you gotta do is make a space anomaly so that they appear as they are to us but younger to the people they interact with. Um, Quantum Leap comes to mind? Or Tapestry? :P None of that shoehorn-girdle-wig crap!
And in TATV barring those solutions - why not just make it about present-day Riker being given a career award (captaincy?) but having moral objections due to his Pegasus experience, and so he's replaying that TNG period in the holodeck as well? Then we get to see him and Deanna married and thriving, and ENT receiving a slightly better legacy.
But seriously, Hollywood, when scripts call for an older actor to play their younger selves, use CGI or rewrite the thing, m'kay? All you gotta do is make a space anomaly so that they appear as they are to us but younger to the people they interact with. Um, Quantum Leap comes to mind? Or Tapestry? :P None of that shoehorn-girdle-wig crap!
And in TATV barring those solutions - why not just make it about present-day Riker being given a career award (captaincy?) but having moral objections due to his Pegasus experience, and so he's replaying that TNG period in the holodeck as well? Then we get to see him and Deanna married and thriving, and ENT receiving a slightly better legacy.
Riker comes off like an idiot in that episode. Apparently, during a pretty serious time, he needed to indulge in a Holodeck fantasy to convince himself to admit his involvement with Pressman to Picard. Forget the awfulness of ending ENT that way, but it tries to ruin a good TNG episode as well.
To be fair, nobody was particularly good in the 1st season except for Patrick Stewart. It takes a while for an actor and character to grow together. I'm positive Yar would have grown to be an awesome character. And Crosby's familiarity with the character would have grown along with the writers.
As you said, Yesterday's Enterprise was great. And in my opinion, the character evolved along with the writers familiarity with the TNG identity.
But I have no problems with how it played out. I just think it would have been great either way.
Oh please if ST series were killed by bad starts, TNG itself would never have made it to season 2. Why did TNG survive? It was the first ST TV show after 18 years (24 if you count TAS).
ENT (like every other post 1987 ST series) got it's legs under it by Season 3 (and he'll it's first two seasons still had WAY BETTER writing overall than TNG season 1 and 2.)
The reasons it was cancelled:
Star Trek had been on the air in some form from 1987 - 2005.
There was a management switch at UPN and most of the folks who had liked Star Trek in general were gone and Les Moonves was NOT a fan of Star Trek in general. The show was expensive for UPN - and hell, the only reason it got a fourth season from Moonves was because he wanted the 100 episodes (or in ENT's case 97); that were required to market it to syndication.
