Damar, hero of Cardassia

[SpocksOddSocks]

The Bajorans and their spirituality was something that put me off in the first place. But I got to look behind their lives and their culture and came to appreciate them.

I'm rather like that with the Bajorans too. As for Damar, I think the main thing that set him apart from Dukat as a leader was that he was less egomaniacal. As others have said, he was more in keeping with the idea of a "good Cardassian"(as Cardassians see it) - patriotism above individual ego.

Still, I would have a hard time letting him off for Ziyal if he'd survived.

 

[Shatna]

I think the american government is scum, a war machine that has brought misery on millions of arabs, I have no sympathy for any yank soldier dying in a foreign country they have no place in, but I do not have an issue with american people.

Likewise when british invading soldiers walk the street of ireland I detest the British system, government and military, but have no problem with the ordinary british person

While I think comparing the politics of DS9 to world history is interesting and appropriate, opinions like these are untethered to the discussion and are best left to a forum like TNZ. So let's not have them here. Thank you in advance.

Odd you claim the comments are both interesting and appropriate, but you do not want them, and its more current affairs than history.

However as you say its nothing to do with trek so will leave out those comparisons and use other trek situations.

Most people dislike the Jem Hadar, that is the intention by the creators of the show.
They are to be perceived as the bad guys and no one would bat an eyelid when or if someone says they cannot stand them.

Yet say the same about the federation ally the Bajorans and its a different matter.


or you can defend the murdering klingons, or the murdering federation, but if you defend the cardassians its a different story again

It is almost like if you go against anything federation you are in the wrong with your opinion and need to be put right by the fanatical federation lovers.

If you re-read my post I think you'll see that what I meant was comments like the ones you made and I quoted, not political comparisons to DS9. But thanks for honoring my request.

 

[MacLeod]

Are you suggesting that people who were massacred and enslaved by a technologically more powerful race should just 'Stop whining and get over it'?.

in a sense Yes.

Of course some people wont ever forget being the victim and that is understandable but as a whole, progress has to be made looking forward especially by the younger generations and future gerrations,

Take Northern Ireland for example, an example i tend to use.
The brits took not only Irish peoples land, but systematically kept the people down, limited their chance to not only employment but education, and the brits subjected the Irish to rape, murder theft etc for centuries.
The troubles was a ticking time bomb, the Irish were treated like shit in their own homes, or at least the home that was robbed of them, but for peace to prevail and for the province to move on people had to change and learn to live and let live.

The next generation cannot keep thinking of themselves as victims.

In a war good people can do bad things there is good and bad in every race, culture etc...as the great Irish writer George Bernard shaw once wrote

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything"

But don't all sides have to admit to any wrong doings, in order for progress to be made?

 

[MacLeod]

Perhaps becuase the occupation was still fresh in their memory, with only a few years having passed, but hoe did the Bajoran Government focus more on the Cardassians rather than the Dominion when they in essence entered the war following the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine. Yes individual Cardassians might have focused more on Cardassians than the Dominion.

 

[Kilana2]

The Bajorans and their spirituality was something that put me off in the first place. But I got to look behind their lives and their culture and came to appreciate them.

I'm rather like that with the Bajorans too. As for Damar, I think the main thing that set him apart from Dukat as a leader was that he was less egomaniacal. As others have said, he was more in keeping with the idea of a "good Cardassian"(as Cardassians see it) - patriotism above individual ego.

Still, I would have a hard time letting him off for Ziyal if he'd survived.

There is still a Mirror Damar. And MU Eddington. Unfortunately other beloved PU characters are already dead. It's odd that I want to know more about MU Damar, too.

As to Ziyal: her death can't be undone.

You raise a good question, which I'd like to pass on to everyone else: what if Damar had survived.......

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

The Bajorans and their spirituality was something that put me off in the first place. But I got to look behind their lives and their culture and came to appreciate them.

I'm rather like that with the Bajorans too. As for Damar, I think the main thing that set him apart from Dukat as a leader was that he was less egomaniacal. As others have said, he was more in keeping with the idea of a "good Cardassian"(as Cardassians see it) - patriotism above individual ego.

Still, I would have a hard time letting him off for Ziyal if he'd survived.

There is still a Mirror Damar. And MU Eddington. Unfortunately other beloved PU characters are already dead. It's odd that I want to know more about MU Damar, too.

As to Ziyal: her death can't be undone.

You raise a good question, which I'd like to pass on to everyone else: what if Damar had survived.......

I think he'd have still been the "hero of Cardassia", and if not their leader, a revered public figure...and he would have hated it.

As for Eddington...never liked the character. He seemed too arrogant and a little... slimy?... Yeah, I'll go with slimy. I never really got him as being a believer in the cause - just a believer in himself.

 

[Kilana2]

I think he'd have still been the "hero of Cardassia", and if not their leader, a revered public figure...and he have hated it.

As for Eddington...never liked the character. He seemed too arrogant and a little... slimy?... Yeah, I'll go with slimy. I never really got him as being a believer in the cause - just a believer in himself.

Regarding MU Damar and MU Eddington I recommend Rise Like Lions (by David Mack). I think Eddington would surprise you. On the other hand, the MU is not everyone's cup of tea.....

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Kilana2, count me among the "not my cup of tea" crowd re: mirror universes. I want my heroes and heroines to stay good and stay put. But I'm old-fashioned that way.

I confess myself disappointed by the treatment of the Romulans in DS9. The major Romulan characters in TOS were complex and nuanced, whereas in DS9 they were as thin as paper. The writers could have done much better than they did.

 

[Trekkin]

I think that was a holdover from TNG. Except for a few in Reunification, The Defector and Nemesis of all things, it would be hard to get more cliched evil than the Romulans.

Put me down for another who didn't like Eddington. I think his last few episodes did a good job of showing that, whilst his stated ideals were sincere, quiet a lot of his motivation stemmed from his own inflated ego. He wanted recognition and respect, he was too arrogant to consider that his wasn't the only 'right' position, and it never crossed his mind that he might make mistakes.

A bit like a milder version of Dukhat in his 'One man war against the Dominion' era.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Whoa... this just hit me....

As to Ziyal: her death can't be undone.

...in Star Trek... you're telling me a death can't be undone?!

Ok, you're right, really. There needs to be a good way to bring a character back for it to work.... a good way, not a Shatnerverse way and I can't think of one for Ziyal.

 

[Jetboogieman]

But don't all sides have to admit to any wrong doings, in order for progress to be made?

History has shown countries that have committed genocide, or war crimes etc be it germany, turkey, serbia etc all take years upon years for their governments to acknowledge it and in some cases we are still waiting.

Bajor will deserve an apology, but that can come in time later down the road, bajor had more important issues to solve among themselves, and even when the threat of the dominion taking over the galaxy emerged, theu still focused non stop on the Cardassians.

But that in and of itself is a commentary on various governments of our time.

Let's use the Japanese/Chinese paradigm as an example, to this day the Chinese still hate the Japanese with a passion and the government intentionally stokes this from time to time to take attention off of domestic matters... a lesser example is Argentina, using the Falklands as a rallying cry for their people while President Kirchner faces major scandals.

It is clear from the lore that the atrocities the Cardassians committed against the Bajorans was on par if not worse than what the Japanese did to the Koreans or the Chinese as far as occupations go.

For the Bajoran Provisional Government the idea of using the Cardassian occupation as a recurring rallying point of national unification only makes sense because the challenges they faced were so large that they could not solve them all overnight, meaning they needed to have a scapegoat to lessen the instability created by a restless population and the Cardassians are the perfect and in many ways relatively harmless one (remember humans made an art of making Ethnic groups within national borders scapegoats leading to many a slaughterfest).

I don't also understand in this thread why there seems to be a debate about the degree to which the Cardassians committed atrocities against the Bajorans and trying to make the Bajorans feel bad for the way they feel about Cardassians... all of it is perfectly reasonable.

I am a White South African and I have to live with the fact that some people are going to hold it against me forever what happened in the dark times during the struggle.

Nelson Mandela is my hero... but I have to understand that some will hate me anyway even though I was too young to have had anything to do with those events... so the entire Cardassian occupation and subsequent Bajoran reaction hits a very personal note with me.

 

[Kilana2]

Kilana2, count me among the "not my cup of tea" crowd re: mirror universes. I want my heroes and heroines to stay good and stay put. But I'm old-fashioned that way.

I confess myself disappointed by the treatment of the Romulans in DS9. The major Romulan characters in TOS were complex and nuanced, whereas in DS9 they were as thin as paper. The writers could have done much better than they did.

As I mentioned before, there are good and bad Romulan novels. It's odd, but in most of the good ones Sela is involved....Or it's an TOS story. Still, there are enough exceptions and many boring Romuland stories (and episodes for that matter).
I guess the DS9 Rumulans had to figuratively walk three steps behind the Dominion and other people and appeared therefore bland.

 

[Kilana2]

Whoa... this just hit me....

As to Ziyal: her death can't be undone.

...in Star Trek... you're telling me a death can't be undone?!

Ok, you're right, really. There needs to be a good way to bring a character back for it to work.... a good way, not a Shatnerverse way and I can't think of one for Ziyal.

No, sadly Ziyal is gone. And I haven't forgotten the parallel universes, where she could still be alive. There may be universes, where she was never been born in the first place...

 

[Trekkin]

Whoa... this just hit me....

As to Ziyal: her death can't be undone.

...in Star Trek... you're telling me a death can't be undone?!

Ok, you're right, really. There needs to be a good way to bring a character back for it to work.... a good way, not a Shatnerverse way and I can't think of one for Ziyal.

No, sadly Ziyal is gone. And I haven't forgotten the parallel universes, where she could still be alive. There may be universes, where she was never been born in the first place...

Theoretically, there might be a Ziyal in the Nuverse. I don't think it's likely she'll appear outside of a background minor Easter egg or something in the future, but there's no story based reason she couldn't show up. But from a fictional perspective, she would be her own person like the Mirror Verse characters are. The same way Thomas Riker is compared to William even.

Unless the writers decide to just ignore that, and go 'Yep, close enough. It's the same person.' Poor dead completely forgotten original Harry Kim. That's a good way to screw up a ressurection.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Speaking of an apology, I don’t rule out some phony diplomatic note saying how much Cardassia regrets all the inconveniences it caused to the Bajorans during the Occupation but I don’t think that such a move will represent the true feelings of the average Cardassian. They simply don’t not know what happened on Bajor, just another colonial project, yes, they say the locals were quite nasty and belligerent, my cousin served on Bajor and was killed. The military personnel that was stationed on Bajor will retain its low opinion of the Bajorans too.

Respectively, the Bajorans can continue hating the Cardassians as much as they want, no one denies them the right to hate. It defines them as a nation, it made them united against the Cardassians. The Bajorans need an open debate on their civilization choices, they have to realize that conflicts always involve two sides at least. They need to analyze their own mistakes that made the Occupation possible and have to learn how to handle asymmetrical relations. Diplomacy, negotiations, alliances, building trade relations and a political acumen can make such a relation more tolerable. Bajor will always be a small planet but planetary isolationism, internal separatism, and lack of social consensus are not the way.

I don’t think that Damar would like post-Dominion Cardassia, had he remained alive. The pro-Federation lobby led by Alon Ghemor would be as unacceptable to him as Legate Broca’s pro-Dominion government. Alon Ghemor is the Cardassian Kubus Oak and that is way he was assassinated. Probably Garak can balance Cardassian strategic interests and maintain a dialogue with the Federation while keeping it at bay.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Probably Garak can balance Cardassian strategic interests and maintain a dialogue with the Federation while keeping it at bay.

One wonders at Garak's potential as the new leader of Cardassia.

 

[Kilana2]

Probably Garak can balance Cardassian strategic interests and maintain a dialogue with the Federation while keeping it at bay.

One wonders at Garak's potential as the new leader of Cardassia.

That's why I'm looking forward to the German translations of the Star Trek - The Fall noves. Garak keeps on living in the novelverse. Garak meets Picard - that should be interesting.
'nough said. Some of you want to keep it as it is without reading tons of novels....

 

[Shada Dukal]

Well, Garak manages to negotiate several border planets for Cardassia in exchange for the Cardassian help during the Borg crisis in 2381 and in 2385, he finalizes the withdrawal of the Starfleet forces from Cardassia. He gained a lot of experience as a Cardassian Ambassador to the UFP so he was quite versed in the Federation practices and could foresee whether Cardassia could benefit from them or not.

He has the right mentality for a politician, his Obsidian training can only come in handy in analyzing the priorities and ulterior motives of the parties involved. I don’t think that Damar would make it in the shifting sands of the post-Cardassian political reality – he was too honest. Big politics requires dishonest people who can see the universe for what it really is but still are ready to get down and dirty for their people.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Well, Garak manages to negotiate several border planets for Cardassia in exchange for the Cardassian help during the Borg crisis in 2381 and in 2385, he finalizes the withdrawal of the Starfleet forces from Cardassia. He gained a lot of experience as a Cardassian Ambassador to the UFP so he was quite versed in the Federation practices and could foresee whether Cardassia could benefit from them or not.

He has the right mentality for a politician, his Obsidian training can only come in handy in analyzing the priorities and ulterior motives of the parties involved. I don’t think that Damar would make it in the shifting sands of the post-Cardassian political reality – he was too honest. Big politics requires dishonest people who can see the universe for what it really is but still are ready to get down and dirty for their people.

Shada Dukal, thank you very kindly. I confess that I've not read the DS9 novels, so I was unaware of Garak's actions subsequent to the TV serialization until you put me to rights. I appreciate your filling in the gaps.

Moreover, I agree with your analysis re: the suitability for leadershp of Garak as opposed to Damar, whose fatal flaws are, IMHO, his rigidity and his associated tendency towards denial, hence his overreliance on drink when confronted with Dominion duplicity.

 

[Kilana2]

Well, Garak manages to negotiate several border planets for Cardassia in exchange for the Cardassian help during the Borg crisis in 2381 and in 2385, he finalizes the withdrawal of the Starfleet forces from Cardassia. He gained a lot of experience as a Cardassian Ambassador to the UFP so he was quite versed in the Federation practices and could foresee whether Cardassia could benefit from them or not.

He has the right mentality for a politician, his Obsidian training can only come in handy in analyzing the priorities and ulterior motives of the parties involved. I don’t think that Damar would make it in the shifting sands of the post-Cardassian political reality – he was too honest. Big politics requires dishonest people who can see the universe for what it really is but still are ready to get down and dirty for their people.

There is an exchange program of officers in place right now with a Cardassian entering Starfleet and serving on starship Titan (Zurin Dakal). There are also Cardassians aboard Enterprise and the new DS9 stations. I like that concept and so far all of them are assets for their captains. Dukat would turn in his grave, though.....
Macet, Rugal, Natima Lang. There is hardly time to miss Damar. Cardassia will recover, but they need time. The Borg incursion was a big step backwards. I can understand that they want to be independent after initially accepting help.

What do you think of that exchange program?