Worfs murderous rampages.

[Karzak]

When you join a military or paramilitary organization, you agree to abide by the rules of conduct in that organization. Worf clearly violated those rules, even if that violation was still within the boundary of his personal cultural belief system.

Again: HOW did Worf violate Starfleet regs?

In all three of these instances, Worf did not challenge a fellow Starfleet officer or Federation citizen. If he'd done that, I could understand why Starfleet would be concerned, because Starfleet crewmembers just don't duel each other whenever they feel like it. But that's not the issue here. Worf's opponents were all Klingons. Starfleet and the Federation were completely irrelevant in all of these examples. ALL of them were internal Klingon matters. (Remember, Worf does not stop being a Klingon just because he has joined Starfleet.)

I'm fairly certain it's against Starfleet policy to murder foreign dignitaries or stand by and do nothing during same. Otherwise the crew wouldn't have been too worried about Geordi trying vaporize Vagh in "The Mind's Eye" nor would Riker have felt all that compelled to stop Yuta from assassinating Soveriegn Marouk in "The Vengeance Factor."

Indeed, it would be a violation of the Prime Directive for the Federation to interfere...

Not if the person committing the crime wears a Starfleet officer. Worf killing Duras could easily have been viewed by many in the Klingon Empire as Starfleet interfering, even if Picard hadn't sent Riker over to try to stop Worf. Why? Because (aside from Worf literally wearing his Starfleet uniform at the time) Worf was also --wait for it-- a member of Starfleet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Worf killing Duras could easily have been viewed by many in the Klingon Empire as Starfleet interfering.

It could have, but it WASN'T. Even Picard admitted that the Klingon government considered the matter 'closed.'

Worf was not using his status as a Starfleet officer to affect change. Everyone knew this, most notably the Klingons themselves. It was obvious that Worf was only laying claim to being a Klingon, and nothing else.

So if the Klingons didn't have a problem with it, why should anyone else?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Worf killing Duras could easily have been viewed by many in the Klingon Empire as Starfleet interfering.

It could have, but it WASN'T. Even Picard admitted that the Klingon government considered the matter 'closed.'

Worf was not using his status as a Starfleet officer to affect change. Everyone knew this, most notably the Klingons themselves. It was obvious that Worf was only laying claim to being a Klingon, and nothing else.

So if the Klingons didn't have a problem with it, why should anyone else?

Picard says

They consider the matter closed. I don't.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Picard says

They consider the matter closed. I don't.

Well, hooray for him. I don't consider Picard's word final in this case. Picard may be Worf's CO, but that doesn't relieve Worf of his obligations - or his rights - under Klingon law.

If Picard feels obligated to force Worf to choose between his allegiance to Starfleet, or to his own people, I wouldn't blame Worf for choosing the latter.

 

[-Brett-]

Worfs rights were to resign from Starfleet, or to have not joined in the first place. Or to move to the Klingon Empire where Klingon laws and customs are worth something. In any case, when you go to a foreign country, you're expected to follow the laws of the land.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In any case, when you go to a foreign country, you're expected to follow the laws of the land.

Starfleet is not a foreign country. It, as a representative of the Federation, is obligated to respect the rights and traditions of everyone in it, so long as those don't conflict with Federation policy as a whole - and in Worf's case, none of these situations did. There is absolutely no likelihood that Worf's killings of Duras, Kurn (if it had happened) OR Gowron would have any negative repercussions on the Federation or any part thereof.

Indeed, if Starfleet had interfered in any of these situations, not only would it have been a violation of the Prime Directive, but it would have caused a rift - possibly even war - between the Federation and its closest ally.

As for Picard, though, here's how I choose to interpret that: Picard didn't want to reprimand Worf. Everyone, Picard included, knew that Duras was a dishonorable traitor and deserved to die, and would have led the Klingon Empire into ruin if he'd gained the leadership of it. But Picard - even though he was as glad as anyone else that Duras was dead - had to maintain plausible deniability, as it were. So to 'save face', Picard gave the bare minimum of sanctions to Worf. Wink-wink.

 

[Karzak]

Worf killing Duras could easily have been viewed by many in the Klingon Empire as Starfleet interfering.

It could have, but it WASN'T. Even Picard admitted that the Klingon government considered the matter 'closed.'

Worf was not using his status as a Starfleet officer to affect change. Everyone knew this, most notably the Klingons themselves. It was obvious that Worf was only laying claim to being a Klingon, and nothing else.

So if the Klingons didn't have a problem with it, why should anyone else?

The Klingon government also elected Gowron to be the next leader of the Council, yet there were enough people who disagreed that a civil war was started. You honestly think the people supporting the Duras claim wouldn't try to use Worf's status in Starfleet to discredit him any way they could?

Picard says

They consider the matter closed. I don't.

Well, hooray for him. I don't consider Picard's word final in this case. Picard may be Worf's CO, but that doesn't relieve Worf of his obligations - or his rights - under Klingon law.

The same way Worf's being a Klingon doesn't excuse him from the rules and regulations he was bound by as a Starfleet officer serving aboard a Starfleet vessel and as a citizen of the Federation. You seem to be willfully ignoring this fact.

If Picard feels obligated to force Worf to choose between his allegiance to Starfleet, or to his own people, I wouldn't blame Worf for choosing the latter.

That scene wasn't about "forcing" Worf to choose between his culture and his job. It was a necessary and rightful dressing down for his actions.

In any case, when you go to a foreign country, you're expected to follow the laws of the land.

Starfleet is not a foreign country. It, as a representative of the Federation, is obligated to respect the rights and traditions of everyone in it, so long as those don't conflict with Federation policy as a whole - and in Worf's case, none of these situations did. There is absolutely no likelihood that Worf's killings of Duras, Kurn (if it had happened) OR Gowron would have any negative repercussions on the Federation or any part thereof.

Indeed, if Starfleet had interfered in any of these situations, not only would it have been a violation of the Prime Directive, but it would have caused a rift - possibly even war - between the Federation and its closest ally.

As for Picard, though, here's how I choose to interpret that: Picard didn't want to reprimand Worf. Everyone, Picard included, knew that Duras was a dishonorable traitor and deserved to die, and would have led the Klingon Empire into ruin if he'd gained the leadership of it. But Picard - even though he was as glad as anyone else that Duras was dead - had to maintain plausible deniability, as it were. So to 'save face', Picard gave the bare minimum of sanctions to Worf. Wink-wink.

You have a seriously misguided interpretation then of what happened. I'll agree, Picard probably didn't want to have to deal with the situation at all but Worf did kill Duras and it flew right in the face of what Worf's duties as a Starfleet officer required of him and could have easily devolved into dragging Starfleet into a prolonged conflict with the Klingons. Culturally, Worf was totally in the clear, but he joined Starfleet and had a duty to Starfleet and he violated that duty to get his revenge and Picard called him on it. This whole conflict is the entire point behind Worf's character -- he has the passion and mystique of the alien race he was born into but also lives among humans who don't "get" him and who he struggles to understand.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Picard's reaction was the proper one. Sisko's reaction with Kurn was the proper one.

But when Worf killed Gowron, Sisko was in 'All I care about is the end result' mode because his way of life was on the brink of annihilation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You honestly think the people supporting the Duras claim wouldn't try to use Worf's status in Starfleet to discredit him any way they could?

They might have - assuming there were enough Duras supporters left in the Empire to constitute a threat. But the way I read it is, the risk of offending what few such supporters might remain is outweighed by the value of retaining the Empire as a valued ally, by allowing Worf to retain enough of his Klingon heritage and tradition so as to be allowed to handle these internal matters as he chooses.

Meaning, if Starfleet had cashiered Worf out of the service, or otherwise tried to keep him from exercising his duty as a Klingon, the Empire would be greatly offended by that - and would have seriously considered breaking off the alliance and even declaring war. That, IMHO, is a much more serious risk than stepping on the toes of the insignificant Duras supporters that might remain.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Picard's reaction was the proper one. Sisko's reaction with Kurn was the proper one.

But when Worf killed Gowron, Sisko was in 'All I care about is the end result' mode because his way of life was on the brink of annihilation.

Under the circumstances, disciplining Worf could only lead to complications. Duras was powerful, but he was a candidate for the chancellorship. Furthermore, he was not considered a friend of the Federation. Martok, as chancellor, was the recognized head of government and someone with whom both Sisko and Federation depended. Worf was also a close friend of Martok. Sisko might well have bit his tongue rather than discipline Worf under the circumstances.

 

[Karzak]

You honestly think the people supporting the Duras claim wouldn't try to use Worf's status in Starfleet to discredit him any way they could?

They might have - assuming there were enough Duras supporters left in the Empire to constitute a threat. But the way I read it is, the risk of offending what few such supporters might remain is outweighed by the value of retaining the Empire as a valued ally, by allowing Worf to retain enough of his Klingon heritage and tradition so as to be allowed to handle these internal matters as he chooses.

Meaning, if Starfleet had cashiered Worf out of the service, or otherwise tried to keep him from exercising his duty as a Klingon, the Empire would be greatly offended by that - and would have seriously considered breaking off the alliance and even declaring war. That, IMHO, is a much more serious risk than stepping on the toes of the insignificant Duras supporters that might remain.

No, the Klingon empire wouldn't have given two rotten targ shits about it because Worf was still considered a dishonrable man by Klingon society (due to his discommendation.) If anything Klingon society would have just laughed him off as getting exactly what he deserved.

There's no way they would have gone to war over Worf being kicked out of Starfleet.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

No one in the Klingon empire could openly say anything about Worf killing Duras, because Duras made the mistake of murdering Worf's mate in an inhonorable way and giving Worf every right and duty to kill him.
To claim the lesser Starfleet rules overriding the ancient rite of blood revenge or whatever it's called would have been seen as dishonorable political shenanigans and be counterproductive to saving any claim of legitimacy to power which ultimately was more important to Duras' allies.

 

[MacLeod]

^ And he did. In what way is it a violation of Federation law for Worf to *observe* Klingon law? I hate to keep bringing this up, but in all of these instances, only Klingons were involved.

If the Federation has so little regard for the cultures and laws of the individual races in it (and of its allies), then that's a sad thing indeed.

Just because the United States respects the laws of other countries, it doesn't mean visitors get to apply their own drinking age or traffic regulations. Ethnicity doesn't matter - location does. If every species was allowed to bring their own laws onto the station, it would be completely impossible to govern.

What happened with Gowron was almost certainly considered an internal klingon matter of the highest order - even if the Klingons didn't have some kind of official diplomatic claim at that point, it would probably have been considered a terrible insult for the Federation to object. Not to mention bad for morale.

Yes location does matter, but lets examine location shall we

Kurn killed onboard a Klingon vessel, so definantly Klingon territory

Gowron was killed on DSN, which is Bajoran territory. So the question then becomes were those quarters considered Klingon territory. And would the new Klingon Governement file an objection over that fact that Worf had killed Gowron?

 

[Ithekro]

Picard's issue with Worf is that he expects his crew to represent the finest examples of Starfleet and the Federation. Going off and having a blood duel is not a good example of a good Starfleet officer and Worf was still in uniform, and thus likely in dereliction of duty. That would be enough to get Worf a reprimand without any killing involved. The Duras was up for the leadership of the High Council and it was Picard's job to decide makes it even harder on Picard that Worf killed Duras, as it makes his job both easier and harder at the same time. Now he cannot continue to investigate who poisoned K'mpek.

Sisko's issues with Worf and Kurn are due to them both being under either Starfleet regulations or Bajoran Law due to their location and jobs, and both have laws against such things regardess of whatever Klingon law might say about it.

For Gowron? Sisko orders Worf to do something about Gowron. Worf does something. The Sisko is pleased. All is right with the Universe for the moment.

 

[kkt]

Gowron's death was post-"In the Pale Moonlight". Sisko was tired of being on the losing side of the war, and Gowron was going to continue to lose it. Sisko was willing to be let the ends justify the means, at least when the ends were as high stakes as the outcome of the war. None of that applied with Kurn, or even Duras.

 

[JoeZhang]

When you join a military or paramilitary organization, you agree to abide by the rules of conduct in that organization. Worf clearly violated those rules, even if that violation was still within the boundary of his personal cultural belief system.

Again: HOW did Worf violate Starfleet regs?

So if Worf isn't violating Starfleet regs you are saying that when Riker and Data beam over with the phasers set to heavy stun to bring him back one way or the other - they are actually assulting Worf and should be arrested for attacking him?

Because if he's broken no regs, what are the grounds for stunning him?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Because he's a Klingon. That's all the reason they need.

And MacLeod correctly pointed out that Worf killed Duras on a Klingon vessel. Klingons, Worf included, can conduct their own affairs however they feel like - it's sovereign Klingon territory. So by what right did Data and Riker go over there in the first place?

(wonder if Worf could have asked Picard for maybe an hour's worth of shore leave so he could, technically, not be on duty when he killed Duras....and if that would have worked.)

No one in the Klingon empire could openly say anything about Worf killing Duras, because Duras made the mistake of murdering Worf's mate in an inhonorable way and giving Worf every right and duty to kill him.
To claim the lesser Starfleet rules overriding the ancient rite of blood revenge or whatever it's called would have been seen as dishonorable political shenanigans and be counterproductive to saving any claim of legitimacy to power which ultimately was more important to Duras' allies.

Exactly. The right of vengeance is vitally important to the Klingons - so much so that even discommendated Klingons may claim it (for loved ones, anyway - Duras only accepts Worf's challenge when Worf mentions that K'Ehleyr was his mate).

And would the new Klingon Governement file an objection over that fact that Worf had killed Gowron?

Since the Klingon government doesn't do anything without the Chancellor's say-so...and the Chancellor happens to be Martok, whom Worf put there...I would guess not.

 

[Karzak]

^ Because he's a Klingon. That's all the reason they need.

And MacLeod correctly pointed out that Worf killed Duras on a Klingon vessel. Klingons, Worf included, can conduct their own affairs however they feel like - it's sovereign Klingon territory. So by what right did Data and Riker go over there in the first place?

(wonder if Worf could have asked Picard for maybe an hour's worth of shore leave so he could, technically, not be on duty when he killed Duras....and if that would have worked.)

No one in the Klingon empire could openly say anything about Worf killing Duras, because Duras made the mistake of murdering Worf's mate in an inhonorable way and giving Worf every right and duty to kill him.
To claim the lesser Starfleet rules overriding the ancient rite of blood revenge or whatever it's called would have been seen as dishonorable political shenanigans and be counterproductive to saving any claim of legitimacy to power which ultimately was more important to Duras' allies.

Exactly. The right of vengeance is vitally important to the Klingons - so much so that even discommendated Klingons may claim it (for loved ones, anyway - Duras only accepts Worf's challenge when Worf mentions that K'Ehleyr was his mate).

And would the new Klingon Governement file an objection over that fact that Worf had killed Gowron?

Since the Klingon government doesn't do anything without the Chancellor's say-so...and the Chancellor happens to be Martok, whom Worf put there...I would guess not.

I can see now that you are ignoring the salient points that poke holes in your limited viewpoint. I don't know how anyone can take your arguments seriously.

 

[Ithekro]

Because Worf is Klingon does not get him out of his oaths to Starfleet and the Federation.

 

[JoeZhang]

^ Because he's a Klingon. That's all the reason they need.

So besides entering Klingon Sovereign territory to assault someone you say is just following cultural norms, you are saying that Riker and Data are racists?