[ahnoldvoice]"YOU NEED TO TAKE A 'TIME OUT'!"[/ahnoldvoice]BLAM!BLAM!BLAM!!!
Marvel/Netflix Daredevil Season 1
- Thread starter JD
- Start date
Frank Castle says, "Eat your vegetables or someone's not getting their dessert!"
I'm not strong on my Marvel knowledge, Punisher being a "villain" of sorts in the DD series could be interesting. I do see him as more of an "anti-hero" since at least his actions more-or-less balance out to "good" assuming those he "punishes" are only bad guys and no one innocent is ever harmed. But he is a deranged psychopath who could only work as a protagonist in his own show and it'd have to be balanced precisely in order to keep an audience on his side.
The Punisher and Elektra have sex a lot. 
Which would create an alarming love triangle of Matt, Frank and Elektra.
(Is it a square if you add Karen, or two interlocking triangles?)
There was an Elektra comic probably 10 years ago called "What I like to do when I'm bored". She followed Frank around all night and killed every one he wanted to kill seconds before he would he killed the people he wanted to kill.
Punisher got super pissed.
In Thunderbolts (the Dirty Dozen with super villains and antiheroes blackmailed, threatened and bribed to fight the good fight.) more recently, there was a deluded love Triange where Deadpool kept muttering to himself about killing Frank becuase Elektra is his girl.
Meanhile, "trial of the century" y'know.
Although I don't see Nelson and Murdock agreeing to defend Frank Castle, unless he is accused of the one murder in the universe he didn't commit.
Which would create an alarming love triangle of Matt, Frank and Elektra.
(Is it a square if you add Karen, or two interlocking triangles?)
There was an Elektra comic probably 10 years ago called "What I like to do when I'm bored". She followed Frank around all night and killed every one he wanted to kill seconds before he would he killed the people he wanted to kill.
Punisher got super pissed.
In Thunderbolts (the Dirty Dozen with super villains and antiheroes blackmailed, threatened and bribed to fight the good fight.) more recently, there was a deluded love Triange where Deadpool kept muttering to himself about killing Frank becuase Elektra is his girl.
Meanhile, "trial of the century" y'know.
Although I don't see Nelson and Murdock agreeing to defend Frank Castle, unless he is accused of the one murder in the universe he didn't commit.
Except he's not using lethal force in the immediate defense of the innocent, in which case it could be somewhat justified. He's actively hunting down people that he believes to be guilty and appointing himself their judge, jury, and executioner. It's inevitable that he'd end up killing people who were innocent. The whole reason we have a court system is because the "I just think they're guilty" method is bound to turn up a fair number of false positives. And even if they are guilty of some crime, what gives him the right to decide to end their lives? What if they would've reformed given the chance, or at least turned state's evidence and cut deals that would've helped put other bad guys away? And what about innocent bystanders getting caught in the crossfire, which is something that tends to happen when military-grade armaments are used in an urban area?
So any story that portrayed the Punisher as "never hurting innocents" would be deeply dishonest. Even if he believes he lives by such a code, he's still wrong.
I'm not nearly versed enough in The Punisher's stories and lore he's the one comic book hero I couldn't care less about, yes even more than Ant-Man.
I'm just giving him a pretty wide berth in terms of a "margin for error" or acceptance. I mean, we could probably make similar arguments about Batman. Sure, he doesn't "kill" but there's still that "line" he draws where he still severely injuries people.
Even Daredevil seems to have a "code" against killing but he drops the guy in episode-2 into a dumpster. Sure the guy doesn't die (by Daredevil's hands, anyway) but we see him later in a coma with a cervical collar on. So is there really that much of a moral line between someone being dead and someone being alive but in a coma with possible spinal injury meaning either paralysis (a drastic life-changing injury) or best-case scenario 10s of 1000s of dollars in surgery and physical therapy to have 75% of your mobility back in 18 months?
There's a lot of presumption that has to happen when it comes to a comic book universe and that's that our "heroes" are doing their jobs in the best possible manner with no collateral damage or losses unless otherwise stated for dramatic effect.
We hoot, holler, and root for Jack Bauer as he beats on people and uses "enhanced interrogation" techniques to get the info he needs because it's pretty much established Jack's always right and his methods always produce results to get him to the next step.
So, is Castle the same way?
And if the people he's beating up, torturing, killing are a criminal element and involved in organized crime you could probably make an argument they're not able to be rehabilitated or aren't open to the idea. They're the scum of society and societal rules, law and conventions aside they deserve what's coming to them.
But, again, I don't know. Maybe Castle does just jump to conclusions and doesn't make a distinction between the guy selling J's on the streets and the the Walter Whites in the elaborate underground labs for producing industrial quantities of meth. They're all "criminals" and are getting what's coming to them in his view. All crimes are equal sorta view.
But if he's just going around taking out the utter scum of society who are caught by him red-handed committing heinous criminal activity? Meh, I'd say things work out fine with them being offed without any form of due process. Especially if we accept for a very corrupt police force and judicial system that wouldn't prosecute them or imprison them in any meaningful way anyhow.
I'm just giving him a pretty wide berth in terms of a "margin for error" or acceptance. I mean, we could probably make similar arguments about Batman. Sure, he doesn't "kill" but there's still that "line" he draws where he still severely injuries people.
Even Daredevil seems to have a "code" against killing but he drops the guy in episode-2 into a dumpster. Sure the guy doesn't die (by Daredevil's hands, anyway) but we see him later in a coma with a cervical collar on. So is there really that much of a moral line between someone being dead and someone being alive but in a coma with possible spinal injury meaning either paralysis (a drastic life-changing injury) or best-case scenario 10s of 1000s of dollars in surgery and physical therapy to have 75% of your mobility back in 18 months?
There's a lot of presumption that has to happen when it comes to a comic book universe and that's that our "heroes" are doing their jobs in the best possible manner with no collateral damage or losses unless otherwise stated for dramatic effect.
We hoot, holler, and root for Jack Bauer as he beats on people and uses "enhanced interrogation" techniques to get the info he needs because it's pretty much established Jack's always right and his methods always produce results to get him to the next step.
So, is Castle the same way?
And if the people he's beating up, torturing, killing are a criminal element and involved in organized crime you could probably make an argument they're not able to be rehabilitated or aren't open to the idea. They're the scum of society and societal rules, law and conventions aside they deserve what's coming to them.
But, again, I don't know. Maybe Castle does just jump to conclusions and doesn't make a distinction between the guy selling J's on the streets and the the Walter Whites in the elaborate underground labs for producing industrial quantities of meth. They're all "criminals" and are getting what's coming to them in his view. All crimes are equal sorta view.
But if he's just going around taking out the utter scum of society who are caught by him red-handed committing heinous criminal activity? Meh, I'd say things work out fine with them being offed without any form of due process. Especially if we accept for a very corrupt police force and judicial system that wouldn't prosecute them or imprison them in any meaningful way anyhow.
Thinking about the Punisher's methods, he's already got ample ammunition just from DD Season 1 for his argument that trying to go through the justice system just isn't effective. There were way too many NY cops on Kngpin's payroll. (And lawyers. And judges and politicians and whoever else.) So even though you may not agree with his methods, they've laid the groundwork well for his character.
I'd submit that, even if he only killed bad people, he would still be a bad person. But that's a debate for another day since it gets into a lot of issues I don't feel like going into.
But, just as I want Daredevil to be pushed morally by having his philosophy lead to the death of Elektra, I also want Punisher's view to fail as well. There was a Daredevil vs. Punisher series which, although not great, did a good job with this. First, at one point, Punisher accidentally shot an innocent person (which, with his fragile state of mind, nearly broke him). Second, there was just a sense that Punisher's actions led to escalation of violence. There were several scenes of random pedestrians just getting mowed down in the crossfire and Frank Castle essentially indifferent to this fact.
Plus, you could always make it clear the problems of his inflexible morality by making Elektra sympathetic and then having Punisher try to hunt her down too.
Big question.
Is Frank's origin in the present, 2015, or is his origin going to be 10 years ago plus?
If he's just killed 8 guys, since his kids died 3 weeks ago, who gives a damn?
That'd only make the Punisher an ordinary psycho.
But if he's a Gulf war 1 veteran, and been punishing mobsters and gangbangers since before 911, Frank could have a body count into the tens of thousands, if he counts explosions, even though bombs are for cheats who cut corners.
The Punisher, in my mind to be a success, needs to be more than a ptsd nutjob, he needs to be a legend.
Unkillable, unstoppable and ancient.
Fear of god shit, y'dig?
Is Frank's origin in the present, 2015, or is his origin going to be 10 years ago plus?
If he's just killed 8 guys, since his kids died 3 weeks ago, who gives a damn?
That'd only make the Punisher an ordinary psycho.
But if he's a Gulf war 1 veteran, and been punishing mobsters and gangbangers since before 911, Frank could have a body count into the tens of thousands, if he counts explosions, even though bombs are for cheats who cut corners.
The Punisher, in my mind to be a success, needs to be more than a ptsd nutjob, he needs to be a legend.
Unkillable, unstoppable and ancient.
Fear of god shit, y'dig?
They might make him a cop as they did in a few other versions?
Making him a gulf war 2 vet allows him a decent time to rack up the body count.
Interesting news. Bernthal is a great choice to play Castle. I thought he was excellent in The Walking Dead, and I reckon he'll bring a similar intensity to this role too.
I always thought Punisher would work better as a TV series instead of film series, so hopefully this works well enough to warrant a series of his own at some point.
I always thought Punisher would work better as a TV series instead of film series, so hopefully this works well enough to warrant a series of his own at some point.
Gulf War 2, which is still kinda going on, if Sergeant Castle was a headcase before his family was killed, you gotta wonder why he ever came back? Meanwhile if Frank was on leave when his family was killed, that would colour the grieving familyman AWOL and a deserter, which makes him a total black hat in the current climate.
So Punisher can be a GW2 veteran, but it really is a question of how he exited service.
What about a private military contractor like Blackwater?
That way he could have been involved in some soul destroying shit abroad without saying that the US Army is naughty.
In Garth Ennis' Born, the Punisher's origin Story, things got so bad in the shit (Viet Nam), that Frank "prayed" to a higher power to save him from what the hell which was happening in exchange for "nothing clearly defined" which turned out to be taking the war back to the America and continuing the endless slaughter.
Which sounds like what Cytorak asks for in exchange for the power of the Juggernaut.
Although even though Garth seemed to be hinting that the entity was death, I'd always felt like it might be War, which at the time (when I first read it) was a big deal since Ares, the God of War was thugging about on one of the Avengers squads.
Although, if this was Death who was giving Frank the gladeye, then that puts him in a love triangle with the mad titan Thanos.
But essentially, in the right light, he is a "priest" killing to please a god that is empowering him to kill, which is perpetual motion and sort of what Moon Knight is up to half the time.
Frank Castle was never meant to be a hero. He is inspired by revenge cop stories. We are never really supposed to see him as being the "good" guy in the same way as Captain America. He is more of the morally ambiguous action hero that is popular in a number of films, like the Dirty Harry or Deathwish movies.
To the current season:
I just finished watching the twelfth episode and was totally shocked by the death of a well established comic book character. Totally took me by surprise.
To the current season:
I just finished watching the twelfth episode and was totally shocked by the death of a well established comic book character. Totally took me by surprise.
^Yer not the only one...
^Yer not the only one...
I think what is great about this series is that it is as much about the origin of The Kingpin as it is about Daredevil. (Assuming Fisk doesn't die in the last episode.)
EDIT: I stayed up late to watch the final episode. Overall a great series and I really enjoyed it, but it was just an origin story and I think we should be beyond that now in terms of super-heroes. I hope that the next three street series don't play out the same way.
What I really liked was the street level supers vibe from the show. It really makes it seem like Daredevil and Jessica Jones/Luke Cage/Iron Fist can exist in the same world as the Avengers without Agent Coulson having to show up on the show.
The Kingpin was Tony Soprano as portrayed in the world of Marvel. He was very will developed. I like this version, even if it isn't the same character that exists in the comic book world.
The writing and directing for the entire series was excellent. Better than a lot of HBO programs. Unlike HBO I never felt that the "graphic" violence was gratuitous. In fact, it was used sparingly when it made an impact. Another thing I liked was that the series never felt like it had to explain every detail as to how the Daredevil costume came about or how Wilson Fisk controlled even the FBI. We were given the idea that these characters were resourceful and had connections but we didn't need to be spoon-fed all those "little" details. That was refreshing.
Last edited:
Well, Jessica Jones seems to be based on the Alias book, which starts with Jessica's retirement from being a superhero, so that wouldn't be an origin story, most likely. And Luke Cage will appear in her show before getting his own, which would suggest that his won't be an origin story either.
^Yer not the only one...
I think what is great about this series is that it is as much about the origin of The Kingpin as it is about Daredevil. (Assuming Fisk doesn't die in the last episode.)
EDIT: I stayed up late to watch the final episode. Overall a great series and I really enjoyed it, but it was just an origin story and I think we should be beyond that now in terms of super-heroes. I hope that the next three street series don't play out the same way.
What I really liked was the street level supers vibe from the show. It really makes it seem like Daredevil and Jessica Jones/Luke Cage/Iron Fist can exist in the same world as the Avengers without Agent Coulson having to show up on the show.
The Kingpin was Tony Soprano as portrayed in the world of Marvel. He was very will developed. I like this version, even if it isn't the same character that exists in the comic book world.
The writing and directing for the entire series was excellent. Better than a lot of HBO programs. Unlike HBO I never felt that the "graphic" violence was gratuitous. In fact, it was used sparingly when it made an impact. Another thing I liked was that the series never felt like it had to explain every detail as to how the Daredevil costume came about or how Wilson Fisk controlled even the FBI. We were given the idea that these characters were resourceful and had connections but we didn't need to be spoon-fed all those "little" details. That was refreshing.
Pretty much sums up how I felt about the series (though I don't mind origin stories if they're well told, so even if the other series go that route, I won't be bothered).
^Not exactly. At the start of Alias she's been retired and living the civilian life for quite a number of years. But yeah, I don't think they'll bother going into any great depth about how she got her powers (I don't even recall if it's even mentioned in the book) but then that's not even her origin story.
Quite the opposite in fact; not to spoil anything, but the story of how and why she stopped being a superhero *is* her origin story. Even that though is likely to be told in flashbacks.
I'm curious to see how they're planning to fit that into the MCU's continuity. In the comics of course the Avengers are long established, superheroes and mutants were well known to the general public and it's generally a very different world. Indeed, Vision, Scarlet Witch and Ms. Marvel all figure into her backstory, which means they can't do that the same.
I suppose one possibility is that she was part of some pre-Avengers SHIELD trial run in recruiting enhanced people on the index as field agents. Maybe what happened to her is why it never became commonplace, perhaps even why the WSC were so resistant to the Avengers Initiative. Depending on the timing, they could have her as part of the original Avengers Initiative and "the incident" could have taken place between Iron Man 1 & 2, which may account for how the Initiative seemed to be dropped rather suddenly.
What really interests me most of all though is that there's a fairly prominent appearance of J.J.J. and the Bugle in that story. I wonder if they're going to take the opportunity of introducing some Spider-man elements into the MCU before the new solo movie.
Briefly, back when Steve was dead, Frank tried out as Captain America.
Yeah...keep your day job, Punny....
Similar threads
