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DC TV & Cinematic Universes

In the unaired TV show, she arrived on Earth as a 13 year old, to be greeted by a fully actualized 24 year old Superman. Kara's adult adventures in the pilot starts 12 years later. Which means that, she is 25 and Kal-El is 36.

If Berlanti does manage to talk CBS into a crossover with Flash or Arrow, I bet we'll find out Supergirl is set in the future (which would help explain why Barry and Ollie have never mentioned Superman). It'll be interesting to see if they show a date anywhere in the Supergirl show.
 
Meh, I still think just having them in separate universes would be the best way to go about it.
Setting Supergirl in a future close enough to Arrow and Flash that the tech levels and everything are the same, would limit what kind of big events can happen in the shows.
 
Now I know DC's TV and Cinematic Universes are currently separate Universes. A Multiverse. With Arrow and The Flash being successes, and should either Supergirl or Titans or both be successes too, does anyone else besides me think DC could really leap frog ahead of Marvel and combine the two Universes with a Crisis On Infinite Earths like movie(s)? Combine the two Universes maybe even add Nolan's Batman Trilogy into the mix.

I think it could work. It would mean firing one of the Flashes or giving one a dramic death like the one on CoIE.

Thoughts?

I don't know if this has been discussed before but a search brought up a lot of multi-page threads that seemingly didn't start out asking this question.

No, DC can't succeed with their movies in the same way as Marvel. They proved this when they couldn't manage to hold on to Christian Bale or Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Batman. That could have saved them lots of time. Man of Steel was a good movie, no matter what the haters say, but it wasn't on par with Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy.

DC's TV universe is fantastic. Never saw Constantine, not interested, heard that it sucked. The Arrow/Flash/Legends of Tommorow universe is cohesive and, despite Arrow's weirdness late in the second/early in the third season, both shows are going very strongly.

On the other hand, Marvel's Agents of Shield was so bad that I couldn't remember the characters' names after 2-1/2 episodes, so I stopped watching. From reviews and such it seems that the only reason it's still on the air is that the stakes are so high that Marvel can't cancel it or it makes the rest of the MCU look weak.

Marvel should stick to film and DC should stick to TV.
 
Supergirl is not set in the future.

They mention Bill O'Rielly quite early on, and he'll be dead in less than 3 years.

Arguably however, Arrow and Flash are set in the past, even though they affirm that the date is "now".

So maybe the present is in the future.

I mean, wouldn't your life make more sense if it's actually 10 years from now, and this conversation is just a fleeting memory you're reminiscing about?
 
There is a very clear and vast difference in mood between the films and tv series.

I'm not totally sure the dark and grim grimdark gritty dark grimmness can work for a tv show. Nor can I think of a channel that could keep it up for long before it becomes incredibly stale.

The tv universe is in a much more lighthearted tone, which I think works a little better for DC and the Flash overall. Flash is definitely one of the few characters that I do not really want to see in edgy dark brooding style with black leather costumes etc.
 
I'm not totally sure the dark and grim grimdark gritty dark grimmness can work for a tv show. Nor can I think of a channel that could keep it up for long before it becomes incredibly stale.

The tv universe is in a much more lighthearted tone, which I think works a little better for DC and the Flash overall. Flash is definitely one of the few characters that I do not really want to see in edgy dark brooding style with black leather costumes etc.

Two things, though:

1) Arrow is an extremely grim, dark, and gritty show, certainly compared to The Flash. It's always been more in the vein of the Nolan Batman films than anything else. Considering that it's been dark and violent and angsty for three years and The Flash has only been bright and upbeat for one, I'm surprised at the perception of "the TV universe" as light overall. (Meanwhile, Constantine was also quite dark, and Gotham aspires to grim 'n' gritty, although it intermixes it with Schumacheresque camp.)

2) While the DC movie universe does seem pretty dark overall, the Flash feature is being developed (and potentially directed) by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, the duo behind Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, The LEGO Movie, and the 21 Jump Street movies. Which strongly suggests that the movie will go for a more comedic tone than the other DC features.
 
The character of Supergirl (in the unaired show) might be light and fluffy, but her rogues gallery are very, very dark.

**Edit, vulgarity expunged**
 
It seems that part of the character journey is Kara learning about how dark the world around her can be.

I think we are going to get the show's version of the Fatal Five. We already have the Persuader and we know he is part of a larger group.
 
You're obsessed by that axe. We could easily look for a bunch of Wizard of Oz symbols too to match off against Vartox's weapon of choice.

It was a few hundred, maybe some thousands of prisoners, who have been obeying orders to lay low for the last 12 years form some old lady who can bench press a mountain.

Their Ducks are in a row. They're going to take over Earth, or build a ship to get the #### off Earth.

Aunty is a general. That makes her a political prisoner. What sort of #### government keeps the paedophiles and political criminals in the same box?

Although how many people died when she tried to take over?

We ain't even sure if she has more going on upstairs in her brain than Girl Zodd, she may have been in prison for different reasons, or may have gotten that rank/title after she was put in the slammer after she shanked anyone else that thought they had the right to be boss.

Point is that they aliens are organized and following a plan.

But really, if you have superior technology, all they had to do was destroy the economy and pick up the pieces, and really America is a stupid place for hundred people to take over, or even a thousand. You'd still need a couple million trustworthy collaborators to keep the rest in line, and how the hell are you sure who is trust worthy?

What's the benefit in ruling Earth anyway for hitech futuristic aliens? Comparatively would you personally want to rule 4th century Briton?

If there are lots of non Kryptonians in this group, that means that there are lots of worlds out there that are good enough for someone that thinks that Earth is a one horse planet, and that seems like a good place to go, unless they're all still wanted back home, and Krypton was just the Glaxy's Jail more so than coincidentally all these thugs got caught littering and #### on Krypton.

But than surely one of these dozens of other planets would have tried to take over the prison contract, and lock down the Phantom Zone?

Was Krypton blown up as a diversion for their jail break?
 
I'm not totally sure the dark and grim grimdark gritty dark grimmness can work for a tv show. Nor can I think of a channel that could keep it up for long before it becomes incredibly stale.

The tv universe is in a much more lighthearted tone, which I think works a little better for DC and the Flash overall. Flash is definitely one of the few characters that I do not really want to see in edgy dark brooding style with black leather costumes etc.

Two things, though:

1) Arrow is an extremely grim, dark, and gritty show, certainly compared to The Flash. It's always been more in the vein of the Nolan Batman films than anything else. Considering that it's been dark and violent and angsty for three years and The Flash has only been bright and upbeat for one, I'm surprised at the perception of "the TV universe" as light overall. (Meanwhile, Constantine was also quite dark, and Gotham aspires to grim 'n' gritty, although it intermixes it with Schumacheresque camp.)

2) While the DC movie universe does seem pretty dark overall, the Flash feature is being developed (and potentially directed) by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, the duo behind Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, The LEGO Movie, and the 21 Jump Street movies. Which strongly suggests that the movie will go for a more comedic tone than the other DC features.

And Aquaman is being directed by the Fast and Furious guy, so you know it's probably going to be fairly fun and fast-paced.

I know people are hung up on DC movies being nothing but "dark and grim", but that's not how I'm seeing what they're doing at all. To me they're simply going for a more grounded kind of universe than Marvel, that seems to take place in more of the real world and isn't quite so bright and colorful and joke-heavy.
 
I know people are hung up on DC movies being nothing but "dark and grim", but that's not how I'm seeing what they're doing at all. To me they're simply going for a more grounded kind of universe than Marvel, that seems to take place in more of the real world and isn't quite so bright and colorful and joke-heavy.

That could be argued for Nolan's Batman films, but there is nothing grounded about Zack Snyder, one of the most hyperstylized and CGI-addicted directors out there. Man of Steel had pretensions of naturalism, but its climax was just about the most preposterous example of indulgence and excess at the expense of credibility that you're ever likely to see outside a Michael Bay film. (And I feel Snyder was the wrong choice for Watchmen, which I felt called for a more cinema-verite style.)

If anything, it's the MCU films that feel more naturalistic to me. Sure, they have fanciful stuff happening and funny banter being exchanged, but the world the characters inhabit is quotidian, there's a lot of everyday business going on in the background, the settings are largely real places, the cinematography is not hyper-stylized, and the filmmakers (and characters) generally pay attention to bystanders so that it feels there are real, everyday stakes. Tony taking the Avengers out for shawarma is hilarious, but it's funny because it's so normal, this amazing bit of the mundane as a coda to this grand, cosmic battle with gods and monsters. And right there in the background are the proprietors of the shawarma shop, keeping their store in business despite all the chaos around them, a brilliant evocation of everyday life going on in the background of the fantasy. That's the very essence of the Marvel Universe, that feel that all this insanity takes place in the context of a very familiar and grounded world with everyday people as spectators, and the films capture it well.
 
No, DC can't succeed with their movies in the same way as Marvel. They proved this when they couldn't manage to hold on to Christian Bale or Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Batman.

Did Warners really try, though? I would have liked to see a "Batman Legacy" film with JGL as John Blake as Batman, but I've seen no indication that Warners ever gave such an idea any serious consideration.

That could have saved them lots of time. Man of Steel was a good movie, no matter what the haters say, but it wasn't on par with Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy.

Man of Steel did a lot of really interesting things, and I'm curious to see if they ever get developed in future solo Superman films. And please, Warners, make a solo Lois Lane movie with Amy Adams, with Lois doing Pulitzer Prize-type reporting stuff.
 
That could be argued for Nolan's Batman films, but there is nothing grounded about Zack Snyder, one of the most hyperstylized and CGI-addicted directors out there. Man of Steel had pretensions of naturalism, but its climax was just about the most preposterous example of indulgence and excess at the expense of credibility that you're ever likely to see outside a Michael Bay film. (And I feel Snyder was the wrong choice for Watchmen, which I felt called for a more cinema-verite style.)

If anything, it's the MCU films that feel more naturalistic to me. Sure, they have fanciful stuff happening and funny banter being exchanged, but the world the characters inhabit is quotidian, there's a lot of everyday business going on in the background, the settings are largely real places, the cinematography is not hyper-stylized, and the filmmakers (and characters) generally pay attention to bystanders so that it feels there are real, everyday stakes. Tony taking the Avengers out for shawarma is hilarious, but it's funny because it's so normal, this amazing bit of the mundane as a coda to this grand, cosmic battle with gods and monsters. And right there in the background are the proprietors of the shawarma shop, keeping their store in business despite all the chaos around them, a brilliant evocation of everyday life going on in the background of the fantasy. That's the very essence of the Marvel Universe, that feel that all this insanity takes place in the context of a very familiar and grounded world with everyday people as spectators, and the films capture it well.

Snyder is definitely known for being hyperstylized, but I don't think MOS even came close (even during the final battle) to looking as crazy and ridiculous as his previous movies. The destruction may have been over the top, but it still looked and felt like what destruction on that level would probably feel like. And the perspective we got from people on the ground also felt appropriately horrific and real-world-- much more than I've felt from any Marvel movie, at least. And the fighting between Superman and Zod didn't look any more far-fetched to me than what we've seen superpowered characters in the Marvel movies do (heck, the battle between Iron Man and Hulk in AOU was about as ridiculous and over the top as it comes).

And while I agree there is a sense of routine, everyday life happening in the Marvel movies, they're still so full of nonstop quippy dialogue and colorful costumes and crazy looking villains that the Marvel world still feels far from grounded to me in the end. And even the glimpses we do get of the outside world still feels pretty darn comic booky to me (yes I know you hate that term ;)), with all the cutesy Stan Lee cameos and girls holding "I love you Captain America" signs and such.

The one exception would be Winter Soldier, which actually did have a very grounded and much less heightened feel to it. But so far that's the only one (and heck, even the first Cap movie set during WWII couldn't resist throwing in cosmic energy cubes and red-skinned villains and an army of comic book soldiers!)
 
I know people are hung up on DC movies being nothing but "dark and grim", but that's not how I'm seeing what they're doing at all. To me they're simply going for a more grounded kind of universe than Marvel, that seems to take place in more of the real world and isn't quite so bright and colorful and joke-heavy.

But the real world is bright and colorful and joke-heavy. Sure, there's plenty of darkness to go around, but for the most part (at least in the developed world) the real world is made up of good people enjoying their lives, trying to be better people, and dealing with the occasional tragedy that befalls their lives. The Marvel films are way more realistic than Man of Steel.
 
Snyder is definitely known for being hyperstylized, but I don't think MOS even came close (even during the final battle) to looking as crazy and ridiculous as his previous movies.

I didn't say it did. Clearly he tried to be as naturalistic as he was capable of. But the most naturalistic Snyder can get is still quite stylized and exaggerated. He reduced Metropolis to a plain of rubble stretching to the horizon, then a few scenes later had the Daily Planet building miraculously restored and the characters laughing as though nothing had happened. That's very, very far from naturalism.


The destruction may have been over the top, but it still looked and felt like what destruction on that level would probably feel like.

No, it didn't. It was exaggerated far beyond what it would really look like. The World Trade Center towers took over an hour to burn and collapse after the jet impacts, but Metropolis's skyscrapers were toppling like houses of cards at the instant of impact, a physically ridiculous scenario. And there wasn't a trace of how it would've felt, because most of the citizens were ignored after the first few minutes, evidently assumed by Snyder to have miraculously evacuated before the worst of the devastation, which is about as realistic as a Power Rangers episode.


And the perspective we got from people on the ground also felt appropriately horrific and real-world-- much more than I've felt from any Marvel movie, at least.

I got no sense of that at all. There were some token running-and-screaming scenes, but they had no real connection to the story, and they had no lasting impact, as that absurdly cheery closing scene demonstrated.

Besides, "horrific" isn't the only thing that's realistic. Horrific is just what you expect in a disaster movie. What gives it realistic texture is the stuff you don't expect, the little touches of humor and humanity, the side stories going on in the background. The story of the shawarma proprietors who kept their shop open in the aftermath of a disaster and provided sustenance to the rescuers of the city -- that's its own little tale of heroism right there, and more realism than you could get from just having a bunch of people uniformly screaming in terror.


And the fighting between Superman and Zod didn't look any more far-fetched to me than what we've seen superpowered characters in the Marvel movies do (heck, the battle between Iron Man and Hulk in AOU was about as ridiculous and over the top as it comes).

As I've been saying, the realism isn't in what's going on in the foreground, but in the texture in the background. Even the most bizarre and fanciful things can feel believable if the world they're happening in has an everyday feel and texture to it, if the bystanders react like the people you know. Superman: The Movie did a great job with this, telling a totally absurd, Silver Age Superman story with broad, comical heroes and villains, but setting it in a world that felt like everyday New York City and had ordinary people watching and reacting in a believable way to the unbelievable events. It's those spectators that make the difference, because we relate to them and how they react. It's like that famous Charles Addams skier cartoon -- the sight gag of the ski trails going around both sides of the tree wouldn't be nearly as funny without the bystander staring in befuddlement. (This is also why sitcoms have studio audiences and laugh tracks. We're a social species, and we take cues from other people about how to react to things.)


(and heck, even the first Cap movie set during WWII couldn't resist throwing in cosmic energy cubes and red-skinned villains and an army of comic book soldiers!)

Again, the key to feeling grounded is not to avoid the crazy stuff, it's to have the crazy stuff take place in believable surroundings. Audiences will accept the fanciful as long as the world it occupies feels real.


But the real world is bright and colorful and joke-heavy. Sure, there's plenty of darkness to go around, but for the most part (at least in the developed world) the real world is made up of good people enjoying their lives, trying to be better people, and dealing with the occasional tragedy that befalls their lives. The Marvel films are way more realistic than Man of Steel.

Yes, yes, yes. A film that's relentlessly dark and grim is no more realistic than one that's relentlessly upbeat and cheerful. Real life is full of absurdity and unintentional comedy, and even the worst disasters bring out amazing acts of kindness and nobility.
 
On the other hand, Marvel's Agents of Shield was so bad that I couldn't remember the characters' names after 2-1/2 episodes, so I stopped watching. From reviews and such it seems that the only reason it's still on the air is that the stakes are so high that Marvel can't cancel it or it makes the rest of the MCU look weak.

Marvel should stick to film and DC should stick to TV.
:wtf:
Wha-ha-ha-ha-hat?:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've heard all week.

"From reviews and such"? You mean like these...?

Rotton Tomatoes has season two audience score at 88%

Season one, despite a start that all involved agree was weak due to having to drag their heals until Winter Soldier, still managed to score an audience rating of 73%, as the story picked up considerably in the back half of the season.

A simple Google search brings up these numbers...

shield%20reviews_zpsovp9vows.png
Io9 says "If You Haven't Been Watching Agents of SHIELD, You've Been Cheating Yourself".

Are you going to bring up AoS's supposed "low ratings"? Don't.

You make the mistake of believing these click-bait articles that point to over-night numbers as an indication of final ratings. But welcome to 2015. Where we have such things as DVRs, Hulu, iTunes and Amazon. After such things are taken into account, even the uneven first season tied for fifth place among broadcast television shows behind only “The Big Bang Theory,” “Modern Family,” “The Blacklist” and “Grey’s Anatomy.” (Source: Variety)

After Live +7 numbers are compiled, AoS always brings in respectable numbers. More than enough to justify renewal. It doesn't get renewed just because "the stakes are so high". What does that even mean?:wtf::confused:

As for other Marvel television, Agent Carter may not have had as good of ratings (it was a holiday season replacement, after all), but it was a critical darling and did well enough for renewal. As for "Daredevil"? Have you been hiding under a rock? Daredevil was fucking amazing!

Look, I'm not trying to come down on you, If you don't like AoS, you don't like AoS. You say you gave it 2 1/2 episodes and gave up, and that's fine. My reply to that would either be that you gave up too soon, or that it just isn't a show for you. If that's then case, then fine, just say so. But when you say such pulled-right-out-of-your-ass nonsense bullshit like...

From reviews and such it seems that the only reason it's still on the air is that the stakes are so high that Marvel can't cancel it or it makes the rest of the MCU look weak.
...you should expect to be called on it. And, again, what does that even mean?:confused:
 
No, DC can't succeed with their movies in the same way as Marvel. They proved this when they couldn't manage to hold on to Christian Bale or Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Batman.

Did Warners really try, though? I would have liked to see a "Batman Legacy" film with JGL as John Blake as Batman, but I've seen no indication that Warners ever gave such an idea any serious consideration.

I read an interview in em.. Esquire.. where CB says he was never in any discussions for Superman vs. Batman.

As for John Blake - although that might have played for a legacy film there was no chance that the first ever Superman/Batman on-screen blockbuster team-up wasn't going to feature Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne.
 
I'm not totally sure the dark and grim grimdark gritty dark grimmness can work for a tv show. Nor can I think of a channel that could keep it up for long before it becomes incredibly stale.

The tv universe is in a much more lighthearted tone, which I think works a little better for DC and the Flash overall. Flash is definitely one of the few characters that I do not really want to see in edgy dark brooding style with black leather costumes etc.

Two things, though:

1) Arrow is an extremely grim, dark, and gritty show, certainly compared to The Flash. It's always been more in the vein of the Nolan Batman films than anything else. Considering that it's been dark and violent and angsty for three years and The Flash has only been bright and upbeat for one, I'm surprised at the perception of "the TV universe" as light overall. (Meanwhile, Constantine was also quite dark, and Gotham aspires to grim 'n' gritty, although it intermixes it with Schumacheresque camp.)

Yes, Arrow is dark..but Felicity lightens things up - a lot. And add in residual Smallville feelings, and magnify how Flash feels like the Raimi movies (i.e. references to many things of the Flash & the greater DC universe) -- that's why people feel the DC Universe is lighter

And really, that respect of fans of previous media & incarnations is what many fans like.

2) While the DC movie universe does seem pretty dark overall, the Flash feature is being developed (and potentially directed) by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, the duo behind Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, The LEGO Movie, and the 21 Jump Street movies. Which strongly suggests that the movie will go for a more comedic tone than the other DC features.

The problem is, the Flash TV show already does a great job balancing fun and action. The movie could be in big trouble if it gets too goofy.
 
I might have typed this several times over the past few months...

But i'm a guy who grew up on MArvel & DC, but preferred DC...so i would love to see DC do well...but quite frankly, it's a mess to me.

Because their movies & TV are separate, there's no cohesion, and no synergy.

it's sad that they can't trust Geoff Johns, who has shown to be wise in how he incorporates old into the new, to be the Chief Creative Officer over both.


I don't buy the idea that it's just too hard to interlace TV & movies. Now, it's easy to screw it up. But with planning, and the right creative minds...it's certainly possible.

I understand the argument that it could potentially limit storylines...but really that depends on the character. I mean, Arrow is pretty local, so i don't see how much of what happens there has to affect a Superman movie. Only another major character, like Wonder Woman or Aquaman...that i can see.

But even Flash? Hmm.. not so sure

I know there are different schedules...but c'mon, comic books have been able to shared universes for decades! (Their schedule is between TV & movies in terms of length)

With TV, right now i am worried about oversaturation. I can only handle so many shows at a time...and if they aren't connected, then my investment in the show drops.

The thing is, to, it's not like the TV shows have to be so directly connect to each other. It worked for Arrow to Flash (and apparently Legends)...but it's possible to set things up like this Supergirl pilot...where you have the show be its own...and then make the decision later after initial ratings and social media buzz...either dump it, or bring it together (like how the Arrow-Flash cross overs get me more excited about both)

Having a DC show in some way connected to Dawn of Justice would pump my interest in the movie, rather than worrying if i like it.

And the other thing... i've got so much going on in my life..i really don't want to balance multiverses of shows happening at the same time. For many fans, it'd be movie and TV...but then also any major comics of ones' past, or past TV/movies. They don't have to have direct connections...but the feelings from those media still linger. Raimi-man and The Flash TV have been smart in how use those.

At this point, only a Crisis can bring things together.
 
Yes, Arrow is dark..but Felicity lightens things up - a lot.

Just because a story has comic relief, that doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as dark. Look at Daredevil on Netflix. Foggy and Karen are hilarious. But it's by far the darkest corner of the MCU. Any good dark story is leavened by humor, just as any good upbeat story is leavened by moments of poignancy. Contrast helps make things interesting.

The whole point is that it doesn't make sense to reduce entire franchises to a single word. That's just oversimplifying.


The problem is, the Flash TV show already does a great job balancing fun and action. The movie could be in big trouble if it gets too goofy.

The movie could be in trouble anyway. It feels like a misstep to go forward with a Flash movie while the series is such a hit. But the WB feature division seems dead-set on its strategy.



I don't buy the idea that it's just too hard to interlace TV & movies. Now, it's easy to screw it up. But with planning, and the right creative minds...it's certainly possible.

Not too hard, no; Marvel has done it, and Paramount kind of managed to do it with the Star Trek movies and shows to a limited degree. But the fact that Marvel's doing it may be the best reason for DC not to do it.

And as I've said before, I have a lot more faith in Berlanti & co. and the universes they're building on TV than I have in the people building the DC movie universe. The Marvel Cinematic Universe and the DC CW universe both started with one success (Iron Man and Arrow, respectively) and built outward from it organically. Man of Steel was a more ambiguous success, and DC seems to be trying to force it to spawn a cinematic universe all in one go. There's no guarantee that effort will succeed, and I don't want to see the already-successful shows shackled to something that could drag them down.

You know, what's frustrating is that Greg Berlanti wrote an early draft of the Green Lantern movie and was originally going to direct it, and it was the first attempt to set up an interlinked DC movie universe. If things had played out differently, we could now have Berlanti and Marc Guggenheim overseeing an interlinked DC universe in feature films rather than on television. I don't think I would've necessarily preferred that -- I think television is simply a better, richer storytelling medium than movies these days, with more control granted to writers and more opportunity for in-depth storytelling. But if it had gone that way, we'd probably have ended up with a better DC movie universe than we're likely to get now.


And the other thing... i've got so much going on in my life..i really don't want to balance multiverses of shows happening at the same time.

Sorry, I don't understand what this means. It's the same number of shows and films regardless of whether they're interconnected or not, so how would it make a difference in your available time or attention? If anything, interconnection would put greater demands on one's attention, since there'd be more incentive to keep up with everything rather than being free to pick and choose among the shows and/or films.
 
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