Focusing on the Lower Ranks.

[Overgeeked]

The upper quote was post number seven of this thread, apparently you missed it.

No, I didn't.

They would be the ones who beam down, they would be the ship's trouble shooters, they would be the focus of the show, they would undertake missions...

So either they're a team of Mary Sues (perfect for every job) or the show focuses only on what this tiny complement of officers and enlisted crew can handle. So taking the wide open range of options of plots based on a wandering starship and limiting it to the specialties of these four people, plus or minus a guest of the week.

Without the crime aspect, I imagine the show being like NCIS or CSI in that there would be a situation that the team would be assigned to. Exploration, or a investigation, or potential combat, or initial meet and greets of new civilization (like a advance party). Maybe they would even investigate a crime too.

Right. So first contact, which is generally the Captain's or the First Officer's domain, but we're hand-waving it to be in this group's dossier. So, a big old hand-wave to bring something into their purview that they shouldn't be doing that's really someone else's job but is just too exciting to pass up.

So the whole ship is here at this planet doing... something else. But the show follows these four doing their thing. Which happens to not only somehow be the most important thing going on (but somehow they're not the department heads) and is just by coincidence the most exciting thing happening during this mission (otherwise the audience would want to focus on where the action is).

After a few episodes you either have these four as hands down the most experienced officers on the ship and they're promoted out of the show's premise (below decks / lower ranks), or you're just hand-waving all logic away, again. But whatever. So there's a ship-wide mission, but we're focused here, with these people. It would be really hard to make whatever it is they're doing the most interesting aspect of the entire crew week-after-week. Unless, again, we're just hand-waving.

If invaders gets on board they would be in the thick of it.

So hand-wave it, again. Either the invaders just magically happen to beam in where these people are, or they're suddenly all security officers... who're the ones that would be called in to repel a boarding party.

And all during these events, the captain would stay on the bridge where he belongs.

Picard generally did that in TNG.

And the forth member of the team is a petty officer (2nd class), a non-Human male in his mid twenties. Engineering and technology expert. Has a husband and wife on the ship.

It would be great to see more "non-standard" relationships in general, and in Trek specifically.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The upper quote was post number seven of this thread, apparently you missed it.

No, I didn't.

They would be the ones who beam down, they would be the ship's trouble shooters, they would be the focus of the show, they would undertake missions...

So either they're a team of Mary Sues (perfect for every job) or the show focuses only on what this tiny complement of officers and enlisted crew can handle. So taking the wide open range of options of plots based on a wandering starship and limiting it to the specialties of these four people, plus or minus a guest of the week.

Isn't this what Star Trek has always done? CO, XO, Science guy, engineer, doctor and later security guy? With the science guy knowing everything about every subject?

Right. So first contact, which is generally the Captain's or the First Officer's domain, but we're hand-waving it to be in this group's dossier. So, a big old hand-wave to bring something into their purview that they shouldn't be doing that's really someone else's job but is just too exciting to pass up.

Never bought that the Captain and XO would lead landing parties. Nor landing parties made up of department heads and senior staff. Makes more sense to have a dedicated first contact team

So the whole ship is here at this planet doing... something else. But the show follows these four doing their thing. Which happens to not only somehow be the most important thing going on (but somehow they're not the department heads) and is just by coincidence the most exciting thing happening during this mission (otherwise the audience would want to focus on where the action is).

And how is this different than any other landing party based episode? Usually with a contrived explanation of why they cant contact the ship and a few token shots of someone aboard saying they lost contact.

After a few episodes you either have these four as hands down the most experienced officers on the ship and they're promoted out of the show's premise (below decks / lower ranks), or you're just hand-waving all logic away, again. But whatever. So there's a ship-wide mission, but we're focused here, with these people. It would be really hard to make whatever it is they're doing the most interesting aspect of the entire crew week-after-week. Unless, again, we're just hand-waving.

Again, this doesn't happen in Star Trek. None of the experienced officers we see every week get promoted off the Enterprise and every mission centers around the bridge crew even the planet bases ones.

So hand-wave it, again. Either the invaders just magically happen to beam in where these people are, or they're suddenly all security officers... who're the ones that would be called in to repel a boarding party.

And the typical bridge crew is better qualified to do this? Sorry who ever the stars of the show are will be doing the fighting. Security or not

And all during these events, the captain would stay on the bridge where he belongs.

Picard generally did that in TNG.

Seems that Picard was often in the thick of it. Often at the expense of Riker, who was supposed to be action guy.

 

[T'Girl]

or the show focuses only on what this tiny complement of officers and enlisted crew can handle

Or in some cases can't handle. But basically your're right, that would by design be the focus. How would that be any different than the majority of what we've seen up to now on Star Trek, minus the space combat?

In Nemesis, when Remans boarded the ship, instead of ordering in the closest security team likely specifically train for such events, the Reman were allow to wonder the ship while the First Officer traveled from the bridge to one of the ship lowest deck. Why, because security couldn't handle it, no it because Jonathan Frakes is one of the shows stars.

In a lower decks show, yes the boarders would be where the stars of the show could basically get at them.

And you're right again that the team would be depicted as "jacks of all trades," owing to their individual skill sets. Between them there would a leader, a sciences, a cop/soldier and a tech guy. None of them would be a doctor, but one would be something like basic EMT. None would be a pilot, if they arrive by shuttle they'll need a pilot from outside the team.

they're suddenly all security officers

In Chains of Command, Jellico was able to just transfer half of engineering over to security. All members of the team would be qualified with a phaser.

So first contact

Right, encounter natives and say hello, not walk into the halls of government. Kind of like what happen at the end of the movie First Contact, or in the episode The Apple.

So the whole ship is here at this planet doing... something else.

What was the Enterprise Dee doing all those times away teams were on the surface, the ship would be doing that.

but somehow they're not the department heads

Who belong on the ship, sitting in their offices, filling out performance reports, and daily logs, and requisitions, and similar wild excitement.

When a naval vessel sends a small party ashore for a mission, the ship's Captain doesn't go with them. In the US Army a Colonel (equal to a naval Captain) commands a brigade, but they don't lead small foot patrols.

Look at Galileo Seven, the second in command, the chief engineer and the ship's surgeon were on that mission, this makes sense to you? Instead of three much more junior personnel.

 

[Overgeeked]

Ah. I see now. It's more a "Trek is bad and wrong, so you'll fix it by making it more 'realistic' than any Trek show has every been" than a "this would make a good Trek show" thing. Gotcha. So you'd "fix" it by taking out a goodly bit of the elements than make it the pulpy fun Trek we all know and love. Sounds more like a fanfic or a role-play than a Star Trek series, to be honest. And no, that's not an insult.

 

[T'Girl]

:

Ah. I see now. It's more a "Trek is bad and wrong

Oh no, certainly not either "bad or wrong," just a change of focus to allow the examination of another aspect of life aboard a starship.

so you'll fix it by making it more 'realistic'

I don't really see this as a "fix,' but again it admittedly would be a change from what came before. And if you consider the opening scene of The Return of The Archons it isn't completely without precedent.

So you'd "fix" it by taking out a goodly bit of the elements than make it the pulpy fun Trek we all know and love.

Not so much "taking out elements" as simply changing who is assigned to away missions, and who the camera is pointing at. The only thing being removed would be stories that revolve around ship to ship phaser battles.

Think of the show Stargate SG-1, the hero team there was composed of a leader/soldier, scientist/soldier, pure soldier and a historian with some military training. The over all commander (General Hammond) was a supporting character who we only occasionally saw. It was revealed in the third or forth season that Hammond had never gone through the gate before that point. He kept the organization running that permitted the multiple teams to go through the gate, but he didn't directly lead the teams through.

There's a show from the 1970's called Emergency (one of my favorites) about a fire department paramedic team, often they went on that week's series of calls alone, other times the fire truck crew when too. The fire chief with hundreds of people working under him was rarely seen.

Overgeeked, most shows don't feature the people at the top of a organization (yes so do), these shows, depending on the characters amd writers, can be engaging and entertaining. If you read this forum many people are saying that is Star Trek if going to survive and (hopefully) going to have another series, it is going to have to change from what came before. No, it doesn't necessarily have to be a lower decks show, but it will have to be structurally different.

 

[Autistoid]

So either they're a team of Mary Sues (perfect for every job) or the show focuses only on what this tiny complement of officers and enlisted crew can handle. So taking the wide open range of options of plots based on a wandering starship and limiting it to the specialties of these four people, plus or minus a guest of the week.

So, a big old hand-wave to bring something into their purview that they shouldn't be doing that's really someone else's job but is just too exciting to pass up.

So the whole ship is here at this planet doing... something else. But the show follows these four doing their thing.

So there's a ship-wide mission, but we're focused here, with these people. It would be really hard to make whatever it is they're doing the most interesting aspect of the entire crew week-after-week. Unless, again, we're just hand-waving.

Some serious straw man arguments going on here.

I never said anything about only 4 people.

The whole point is there would be a series of mini arcs where people are only present when they are needed.

Over the course of 5 season(60 episodes)

I'd expect atleast 20 different characters to be used.

Also as the show goes along people would be promoted to higher positions within the lower decks.

You can say alot of things about this idea, however the notion that plots wouldn't make sense or would be lacking is absolutely absurd.

A general theme of the show would be that these young crews, make the assumption there posted into trivial areas of ship life, while in reality are involved in supporting some really important action.

 

[Autistoid]

Alright lets just go over some ideas why the bridge crew wouldn't be involved.

1) An ambassodor from vulcan is expected to beam aboard a hostile species. Accompanied by 2 tactical officers, a logistics specialist who is able to help negioate what supplies the ship can supply, and one of the ships legal clerks. Consumed with fear the 5 must survive for 7 days outside of federation controled space.

2) After a tragic accident, several teams are beamed to an alien ship in a race against the clock to save lives.

3) After being exposed to tremendous trauma a science officer faces rehabilitation from medical staff and friends.

4) A young officer is placed on gaurd duty for the man responsible for killing his wife.

5) Stranded in the neutral zone, an engineering crew are involved in a race against the clock to reactivate the engines.

6) a team of investigaters must find the cause of an exploding control panel on the bridge.

7) The bridge crew are exposed to a deadly parasitic virus. A team of scientist must find a cure, while a tactical team prepares to remove those in command.

I could keep going on and on and on.

 

[Overgeeked]

Overgeeked, most shows don't feature the people at the top of a organization (yes so do), these shows, depending on the characters amd writers, can be engaging and entertaining. If you read this forum many people are saying that is Star Trek if going to survive and (hopefully) going to have another series, it is going to have to change from what came before. No, it doesn't necessarily have to be a lower decks show, but it will have to be structurally different.

You're confusing "at the top of an organization" with "where the action is". All shows put their characters where the action is, otherwise the show would be dull. Where's the action on a starship? On the bridge.

I never said anything about only 4 people.

Is that post of mine you're quoting a response to you or T'Girl? I'm fairly sure it was a response to T'Girl's specific suggestion of her setup.

A general theme of the show would be that these young crews, make the assumption there posted into trivial areas of ship life, while in reality are involved in supporting some really important action.

And that's exactly the problem at the heart of the concept. You don't watch Law & Order to see how the desk sergeant supports the detectives, or to see how the secretary supports the lawyers. Instead, you follow the detectives around as they solve the case. People don't want to watch the main characters support other characters as they get to run around and do things... they want to watch as the main characters actually do the important stuff for themselves.

Pick a plot you're thinking of with this concept then ask this simple question: What's the single most important thing going on here? If your main characters aren't directly involved in that, if they're not personally responsible for resolving that problem, then you've got a boring show.

I get your and T'Girl's repetition of "but the focus will be here", and that's great, but you're gleefully missing the point. The audience wants to be at the heart of things, they want to be where the real action is, where things are the most dramatic. If the biggest, most important thing is happening off screen and other character are dealing with it, while your characters are dealing with some minor aspect of that... then no one will care. They'll be bored and change channels. They'll wonder why you picked unimportant, third rate characters as the focus when the interesting, engaging, and fun stuff is happening somewhere else to other characters.

For example, the boarding party that's been talked about. Okay. So what's the situation? There's got to be an enemy ship where the boarding party has come from. That ship has to have surprised your ship or attacked and dropped your ship's shields to beam over the boarding party. So... in that situation, the most important thing going on is not actually the boarding party. It's the enemy ship that's surprised or attacked the ship. If the boarding party attacks and succeeds, they take over a small section of the ship that can easily be locked down or secured. If the enemy ship attacks and succeeds, the whole ship is destroyed and everyone's dead or dying. See how the boarding party is suddenly not the most important thing going on?

 

[Overgeeked]

Alright lets just go over some ideas why the bridge crew wouldn't be involved.

1) An ambassodor from vulcan is expected to beam aboard a hostile species. Accompanied by 2 tactical officers, a logistics specialist who is able to help negioate what supplies the ship can supply, and one of the ships legal clerks. Consumed with fear the 5 must survive for 7 days outside of federation controled space.

That's something a whole starship would be sent to do. That danger you're trying to create is exactly why they'd send a ship. That's also why the "stranded in a shuttle" thing is always because of some accident or attack. Something that's really dangerous warrants a real ship.

2) After a tragic accident, several teams are beamed to an alien ship in a race against the clock to save lives.

Sure. But unless your crew is where the main action is, it's boring. Think "Siege of AR-558". What was the main objective? Defend the com tower. Where was the main action? Defending the com tower. They didn't set the characters kilometers off doing something else.

3) After being exposed to tremendous trauma a science officer faces rehabilitation from medical staff and friends.

Could totally work. "It's Only a Paper Moon" without Vic Fontaine.

4) A young officer is placed on gaurd duty for the man responsible for killing his wife.

...because everyone in charge has suddenly turned irrevocably stupid. Not only do the stories need to feature characters at the heart of the action, they've got to make some basic sense.

5) Stranded in the neutral zone, an engineering crew are involved in a race against the clock to reactivate the engines.

Sure, could do.

6) a team of investigaters must find the cause of an exploding control panel on the bridge.

LOL. Never-ending work that. Unless it killed or nearly someone important, it's not important. If it nearly killed or actually killed someone important, characters more important than yours would be conducting the investigation.

7) The bridge crew are exposed to a deadly parasitic virus. A team of scientist must find a cure, while a tactical team prepares to remove those in command.

What?

I could keep going on and on and on.

For every ten ideas you generate, maybe one will be workable. Not that it will work just as you first imagined, rather it will be useable... eventually, after a fashion. That's not an attack on you, rather that's a general thing. It took a lot of people a lot of time to come up with the hundreds of ideas you saw on the shows. They also happened to generate thousands more that were never used, they weren't all gems. Not even the ones that appeared on screen were all gems. But remember that the ones we did see were the absolute best of the best the writers could generate at the time.

So, from the ideas you listed, what you're talking about is a pure anthology show with no set cast? Like Twilight Zone, Amazing Stories, Tales from the Crypt, or Tales from the Darkside. Pure anthologies don't work. They're way too expensive to do. Constantly casting new people over and over is a lot of work.

 

[martok2112]

I would have to agree that a "lower decks" series would probably be of limited appeal and longevity in terms of science-fiction shows. Yes, it would be an interesting idea, but only for a time.

I thought that the recent iteration of Battlestar Galactica handled this magnificently. Yes, much of the action and drama was largely focused on the command crew and fighter pilots, but there was plenty of lower decks action and involvement to show that the Galactica was not solely reliant on its crew up in the CIC and the fighter pilots. It was a balance that I thought Ron Moore struck nicely with the newer show.

Star Trek could strike that same balance.

 

[T'Girl]

All shows put their characters where the action is ...

I would say exactly the opposite, shows are written to put the action where the main characters are.

Look at the series Adam 12, the show followed a veteran sergeant and a (initially) rookee right out of the academy. Now in the grand scheme of things in the Los Angeles police department these two are fairly small cogs in a large machine. But the "action" of the show does revolve around these two. There are superior officers and other cops, and we do see them, however the focus of the show is with the two stars.

")

 

[Admiral2]

A Romulan warbird decloaks in front of the ship ...

If a (non Star Trek) show centers on doctors and nurses in a hospital ER, you don't concern the story with the administrator in a different part of the hospital.

Unless there's an immediate threat to the hospital's ability to function normally, like an outbreak, a natural disaster or a power outage. Then you have to rely on the administrator to keep the entire place going, including all those little departments.

Just like on a starship when a warbird decloaks.

If your focus is on the "lower decks," then the story isn't going to be about a Romulan ship decloaking, unless that's a lead in to the series main characters and what it is they're doing in the episode.

Except if one of those characters is a cargo handler or botanist, their main contribution to the story at that point would showing the audience the best places to run to and hide. Not compelling drama.

On NCIS, the main characters are employed by the US Navy, but the Secretary of the Navy is rarely seen.

But their unit commander (The Director, or captain of the USS NCIS if you will) has been in every episode since Lauren Holly first took the job, whether or not they went into the field with Jethro's team, so there has been an administrator present for several seasons.

And anyway, Jethro's team is not "lower decks". Lower decks would be the other investigators in HQ or the technicians in M-TAC.

Most cop shows don't feature the Chief of Police (although some do). The shows is structure around cops on the beat or detectives.

But again, in those situations the detectives are not "lower decks." Lower decks is cadets fresh out of the academy, and even the academy show with Shat in it didn't focus on them.


The episode lower decks was a gimmick. It is not a series. It would fail because even in peacetime situations nobody gives a damn what Transporter repairman third class Dexter McStuffins does during his day, and they sure as hell don't want to see it replayed every week.

There's more to the argument than just "the bridge is where the action is." The bridge is usually where the Command Staff is. That is key, because when the Romulan decloaks (or the peace talks break down, or the cosmic storm is bearing down on the ship) you want to pay attention to the reaction of the people with the immediate authority to do something about it. That's the main reason the captain is the star of the show. He gets final say. His immediate juniors are only a step or two below him, so they have the best chance to get heard quickly in a situation.

Lower decks people have to go through lots of levels of bureaucracy to get heard by the decision-makers - unless they're Mary Sues (or let's call a spade a spade, Wesley Crushers). Also, lower decks people don't get information as immediately as the command staff. In a real crisis they might know jack about what's going on, and if they're your show's focus, your audience will be just as in the dark. Your audience will not stand for being in the dark week after week unless there's a dead body involved and Dick Wolf is producing the show.

The popularity and drama of that one episode is not sustainable on a regular basis. Eventually, just to save the series, you're going to have to make one of your lower deckers a bridge officer, thus defeating your purpose.

Just start out on the bridge and get it over with.

 

[BillJ]

The episode lower decks was a gimmick. It is not a series. It would fail because even in peacetime situations nobody gives a damn what Transporter repairman third class Dexter McStuffins does during his day, and they sure as hell don't want to see it replayed every week.

Winner!!!

 

[Overgeeked]

The episode lower decks was a gimmick. It is not a series. It would fail because even in peacetime situations nobody gives a damn what Transporter repairman third class Dexter McStuffins does during his day, and they sure as hell don't want to see it replayed every week.

Winner!!!

Chief O'Brien at Work, the TV series.

Comedy. Yes. Action, adventure, mystery, or drama? Nope.

 

[BillJ]

The episode lower decks was a gimmick. It is not a series. It would fail because even in peacetime situations nobody gives a damn what Transporter repairman third class Dexter McStuffins does during his day, and they sure as hell don't want to see it replayed every week.

Winner!!!

Chief O'Brien at Work, the TV series.

Comedy. Yes. Action, adventure, mystery, or drama? Nope.

Awesome stuff. But it's about all you would get out of a lower decks series.

 

[Autistoid]

Winner!!!

Chief O'Brien at Work, the TV series.

Comedy. Yes. Action, adventure, mystery, or drama? Nope.

Awesome stuff. But it's about all you would get out of a lower decks series.

Yawn straw man argument of the year.

I made clear from the beginning that wasn't what I was talking about.

The show would be very similar minus bridge politics, which would be replaced with a more detailed view of ship politics and actual detailed intricacies of interstellar politics.

i.e. by getting off the bridge a planet of hats type trope can more easily be avoided.

EDIT: Quit hijacking my thread so directly if your gonna only reference tgirl.

 

[Autistoid]

The episode lower decks was a gimmick. It is not a series. It would fail because even in peacetime situations nobody gives a damn what Transporter repairman third class Dexter McStuffins does during his day, and they sure as hell don't want to see it replayed every week.

Ironic quote considering the actual episode had a young bajoran being part of a starfleet intelligence mission.

But what are we talking about, pffft putting a young officer in a position where there in an intense degree of danger, with a high possibility of being killed is an absolutely horrid idea, especially if it's all for some irrelevant mission for intergalactic intel.

Oh and the whole idea of an attractive strong willed female putting herself in a form of simulated abuse to help what was essentially her nazi overloads absolute drivel. Absolutely no room for layered themes or commentary there.

I'm sure if ideas like this were expanded on, critics adults, etc would hate it.

Even worst is upon her supposed death, would be those pesky juniors being emotionally conflicted about there promotions.

I give in what we need more of is kinder trek.

 

[BillJ]

EDIT: Quit hijacking my thread so directly if your gonna only reference tgirl.

It's an open forum, so it isn't your thread. If you want an "everyone pat Autistoid on the back for his great idea" thread then you should start one. Not everyone likes or looks for the same things in entertainment and it isn't a crime to disagree, last I checked.

 

[Autistoid]

EDIT: Quit hijacking my thread so directly if your gonna only reference tgirl.

It's an open forum, so it isn't your thread. If you want an "everyone pat Autistoid on the back for his great idea" thread then you should start one. Not everyone likes or looks for the same things in entertainment and it isn't a crime to disagree, last I checked.

It's an open forum but there is still degrees of staying on topic. I created the thread, and introduced the initial topic.

You don't have to agree with the initial premise or even like it, but to completely ignore it seems to fit the only term I know which is hijacking. The title of the thread is lower ranks not lower decks, and I made a point of separating the thread from that episode.

Anyways I welcome opinion, this is just simply mine.

 

[Autistoid]

But again, in those situations the detectives are not "lower decks." Lower decks is cadets fresh out of the academy, and even the academy show with Shat in it didn't focus on them.

When I said lower ranks I specifically meant to include senior non coms and the like. On top of that not even the officers need to be juniors. Depending on your interpretations of what a starfleet vessel may be like, it's implied there should be a higher number mid level officers not ever setting foot on the bridge.

The absence of depth itself is what I was talking about addressing. Believe what you want, rodenberry believed in the idea that a large portion of the ship were officers or at the very least talented and well trained individuals. Using some drunk logic(4am at a bar) one can easily assume there should be a large number of specialists on board.

There's more to the argument than just "the bridge is where the action is." The bridge is usually where the Command Staff is. That is key, because when the Romulan decloaks (or the peace talks break down, or the cosmic storm is bearing down on the ship) you want to pay attention to the reaction of the people with the immediate authority to do something about it.

This is essentially a trope rather than a fact of reality. Examining this trope gravitates to a rather large and relate-able theme. Everyone wants to climb to the top.


Anyways there are lots of times when the reverse is true, by the time command finds out it's already too late to make a decision.

Using drunk logic there are plenty of times when anyone can be selected at random to do their duty. This is the core value of the idea. What if your menial job has importance for just one day, a month or one year of your life.

By simply wanting a more real(not scientifically accurate, but more inline with what your average persons sees in their day to day life) a plethora of plots and ideas can be introduced to the star trek universe to give it new life.

. It's obviously a mix of real life, and escape. However that ratio to me does not start at 0 percent and 100 percent, which it seems to do for many on here.

Lower decks people have to go through lots of levels of bureaucracy to get heard by the decision-makers - unless they're Mary Sues (or let's call a spade a spade, Wesley Crushers). Also, lower decks people don't get information as immediately as the command staff. In a real crisis they might know jack about what's going on, and if they're your show's focus, your audience will be just as in the dark. Your audience will not stand for being in the dark week after week unless there's a dead body involved and Dick Wolf is producing the show.

It's just as often the reverse is true. The people in the thick of things have a way better understanding of what is actually going on. Often the leaders are the ones in the dark taking advice and intel from those on the ground. There are so many examples of this in real life, yet the trek verse completely ignores this fact.

Even in TMP kirk fixates on how he feels he's on the sidelines.

Of course there are interpretations on what scale one becomes on the sidelines. However in this concept it happens at the bridge(not admiralcy).

Again further dissecting this excessive trope in trek.

The popularity and drama of that one episode is not sustainable on a regular basis. Eventually, just to save the series, you're going to have to make one of your lower deckers a bridge officer, thus defeating your purpose.

Define sustainable.

Having well over 600 episodes of a franchise with the same formula on repeat again and again for 30 years to me seemed like it wasn't sustainable. In fact basic logic would imply I may be right.


If star trek comes back it hopefully will adapt to the times of modern television.

DS9 is the only show that was well suited for this modern dynamic and it was 15 years ahead of it's time.(way to many filler eps)


In a modern format with 10-12 eps at a time over a 5 year ark, it'd be hard to convince me you'd run out of content.