Avengers: Age of Ultron- Grading & Discussion (spoilerific)

[Mage]

not quite sure where you're getting that from, the arc reactors powers all of his armors. During the wood chopping scene though he still talked about giving up the battle.

He means that the one on Tony's chest stopped being the only source of power for the suits. Ever since IM2 we've had suits that were powered by other means.

No, we haven't in Iron Man 2 you can see Rhodey take out the reactor before giving it to Hammer.

Not THE reactor, A reactor.
I was always under the impression that Tony massproduced small ARCs for all the suits, to either be used by others or like drones. But that when he himself puts on a suit, it's powered by his chestpiece.
In Iron Man, Obidiah needs Tony's chestpiece to power his suit, so Tony uses the older model that Pepper turned into a gift as a backup. I was under the impression that these suits need so much power, only an ARC can deliver that. And since we already now Tony can make a new just like that, I figured that's what he did for all the suits.

 

[Tosk]

not quite sure where you're getting that from, the arc reactors powers all of his armors. During the wood chopping scene though he still talked about giving up the battle.

He means that the one on Tony's chest stopped being the only source of power for the suits. Ever since IM2 we've had suits that were powered by other means.

No, we haven't in Iron Man 2 you can see Rhodey take out the reactor before giving it to Hammer.

Uh, yeah.

...As I said, it wasn't powered by the one in Tony's chest.

 

[DWF]

He means that the one on Tony's chest stopped being the only source of power for the suits. Ever since IM2 we've had suits that were powered by other means.

No, we haven't in Iron Man 2 you can see Rhodey take out the reactor before giving it to Hammer.

Uh, yeah.

...As I said, it wasn't powered by the one in Tony's chest.

And Tony doesn't have one in his chest anymore, yet the armors are still powered by an acr reactor. There's no proof that they're powered by anything else. Still it is odd taht if wanted to continue being Iron Man for him to throw the reactor into the ocean. If it was a symbol of him throwing away his old lifee why continue to be Iron Man then?

 

[Mage]

No, we haven't in Iron Man 2 you can see Rhodey take out the reactor before giving it to Hammer.

Uh, yeah.

...As I said, it wasn't powered by the one in Tony's chest.

And Tony doesn't have one in his chest anymore, yet the armors are still powered by an acr reactor. There's no proof that they're powered by anything else. Still it is odd taht if wanted to continue being Iron Man for him to throw the reactor into the ocean. If it was a symbol of him throwing away his old lifee why continue to be Iron Man then?

Because it wasn't Iron Man that was a symbol of his old life. It was coming to terms with mortality, and the fact that others around him can and will die, someday. No matter what. The arc reactor was created to keep him alive. Even after learning that there was a way to get the shrapnel out of him and live without the chestpiece, he decided to leave it there, because it had become this object for his OCD. And yeah, this man has OCD. By accepting that all life is always in danger and can always end, he realized that this anchor was no longer needed. Throwing it away like that is a symbol of tossing away your old life.

Iron Man, however, was a symbol of what he had become. A protector, a defender. Someone who would still thrive to keep safe those around him, even if he had accepted that that isn't always possible. The emphasis changed. Instead of, he IS Iron Man, it became HE is Iron Man.

 

[DWF]

Uh, yeah.

...As I said, it wasn't powered by the one in Tony's chest.

And Tony doesn't have one in his chest anymore, yet the armors are still powered by an acr reactor. There's no proof that they're powered by anything else. Still it is odd taht if wanted to continue being Iron Man for him to throw the reactor into the ocean. If it was a symbol of him throwing away his old lifee why continue to be Iron Man then?

Because it wasn't Iron Man that was a symbol of his old life. It was coming to terms with mortality, and the fact that others around him can and will die, someday. No matter what. The arc reactor was created to keep him alive. Even after learning that there was a way to get the shrapnel out of him and live without the chestpiece, he decided to leave it there, because it had become this object for his OCD. And yeah, this man has OCD. By accepting that all life is always in danger and can always end, he realized that this anchor was no longer needed. Throwing it away like that is a symbol of tossing away your old life.

Iron Man, however, was a symbol of what he had become. A protector, a defender. Someone who would still thrive to keep safe those around him, even if he had accepted that that isn't always possible. The emphasis changed. Instead of, he IS Iron Man, it became HE is Iron Man.

He has PTSD as well as OCD, Wanda showed him his greatest fear and it lead to the creation of Ultron. But really he's given every indication of wanting to leave Iron Man behind him even going so far to walk away from the Avengers, In AOU it's hard to believe the changes he went though in Iron Man 3 even happened. In trying to prevent another alien attqack he created a nw menace and a new army to battle as well.

 

[Mage]

And Tony doesn't have one in his chest anymore, yet the armors are still powered by an acr reactor. There's no proof that they're powered by anything else. Still it is odd taht if wanted to continue being Iron Man for him to throw the reactor into the ocean. If it was a symbol of him throwing away his old lifee why continue to be Iron Man then?

Because it wasn't Iron Man that was a symbol of his old life. It was coming to terms with mortality, and the fact that others around him can and will die, someday. No matter what. The arc reactor was created to keep him alive. Even after learning that there was a way to get the shrapnel out of him and live without the chestpiece, he decided to leave it there, because it had become this object for his OCD. And yeah, this man has OCD. By accepting that all life is always in danger and can always end, he realized that this anchor was no longer needed. Throwing it away like that is a symbol of tossing away your old life.

Iron Man, however, was a symbol of what he had become. A protector, a defender. Someone who would still thrive to keep safe those around him, even if he had accepted that that isn't always possible. The emphasis changed. Instead of, he IS Iron Man, it became HE is Iron Man.

He has PTSD as well as OCD, Wanda showed him his greatest fear and it lead to the creation of Ultron. But really he's given every indication of wanting to leave Iron Man behind him even going so far to walk away from the Avengers, In AOU it's hard to believe the changes he went though in Iron Man 3 even happened. In trying to prevent another alien attqack he created a nw menace and a new army to battle as well.

He never walked away from Iron Man or The Avengers in IM3, that's the problem. And that is never, ever stated. Again, the last line of the movie is I am Iron Man. And his desire to want to keep the world safe is also never said to be done with it. Never, every, anywhere in Iron Man 3 does Tony say anything like that.
He's gotten to terms with his PTSD and his OCD, but that doesn't mean he wants to stop keeping the world safe.

And as for creating Ultron...... He didn't create Ultron as we saw him. He created something else. But something went wrong, something unpredictable. Something unforeseen.
Like the inventors of the rocketengine. They didn't create missilses, they created rocketengines. What those engines became however, was something horrible.

EDIT TO ADD:
I think it's important that people see the difference between the Ultron Program Tony wanted to create, and what was later influenced by Wanda, and ultimatly became the AI that is Ultron. I mean, HYDRA wanted Tony to find the Staff and influence his work, don't forget that.

 

[DWF]

Because it wasn't Iron Man that was a symbol of his old life. It was coming to terms with mortality, and the fact that others around him can and will die, someday. No matter what. The arc reactor was created to keep him alive. Even after learning that there was a way to get the shrapnel out of him and live without the chestpiece, he decided to leave it there, because it had become this object for his OCD. And yeah, this man has OCD. By accepting that all life is always in danger and can always end, he realized that this anchor was no longer needed. Throwing it away like that is a symbol of tossing away your old life.

Iron Man, however, was a symbol of what he had become. A protector, a defender. Someone who would still thrive to keep safe those around him, even if he had accepted that that isn't always possible. The emphasis changed. Instead of, he IS Iron Man, it became HE is Iron Man.

He has PTSD as well as OCD, Wanda showed him his greatest fear and it lead to the creation of Ultron. But really he's given every indication of wanting to leave Iron Man behind him even going so far to walk away from the Avengers, In AOU it's hard to believe the changes he went though in Iron Man 3 even happened. In trying to prevent another alien attqack he created a nw menace and a new army to battle as well.

He never walked away from Iron Man or The Avengers in IM3, that's the problem. And that is never, ever stated. Again, the last line of the movie is I am Iron Man. And his desire to want to keep the world safe is also never said to be done with it. Never, every, anywhere in Iron Man 3 does Tony say anything like that.
He's gotten to terms with his PTSD and his OCD, but that doesn't mean he wants to stop keeping the world safe.

And as for creating Ultron...... He didn't create Ultron as we saw him. He created something else. But something went wrong, something unpredictable. Something unforeseen.
Like the inventors of the rocketengine. They didn't create missilses, they created rocketengines. What those engines became however, was something horrible.

EDIT TO ADD:
I think it's important that people see the difference between the Ultron Program Tony wanted to create, and what was later influenced by Wanda, and ultimatly became the AI that is Ultron. I mean, HYDRA wanted Tony to find the Staff and influence his work, don't forget that.

Stark drove off at the of AOU and left the Avengers to Cap. And yes he did create Ultron, it was Wanda who allowed him to take the scepter not Hydra in the hope of getting revenge for his own weapon killing her parents. Ultron was his idea and he amitted to it, but like any true aI Ultron went random and decided the fate of humanity based on Tony's own model. But in the end Ultron was his idea to create an armor around the world, Ultron saw teh only way to do that was to destroy all life.

 

[Mage]

He has PTSD as well as OCD, Wanda showed him his greatest fear and it lead to the creation of Ultron. But really he's given every indication of wanting to leave Iron Man behind him even going so far to walk away from the Avengers, In AOU it's hard to believe the changes he went though in Iron Man 3 even happened. In trying to prevent another alien attqack he created a nw menace and a new army to battle as well.

He never walked away from Iron Man or The Avengers in IM3, that's the problem. And that is never, ever stated. Again, the last line of the movie is I am Iron Man. And his desire to want to keep the world safe is also never said to be done with it. Never, every, anywhere in Iron Man 3 does Tony say anything like that.
He's gotten to terms with his PTSD and his OCD, but that doesn't mean he wants to stop keeping the world safe.

And as for creating Ultron...... He didn't create Ultron as we saw him. He created something else. But something went wrong, something unpredictable. Something unforeseen.
Like the inventors of the rocketengine. They didn't create missilses, they created rocketengines. What those engines became however, was something horrible.

EDIT TO ADD:
I think it's important that people see the difference between the Ultron Program Tony wanted to create, and what was later influenced by Wanda, and ultimatly became the AI that is Ultron. I mean, HYDRA wanted Tony to find the Staff and influence his work, don't forget that.

Stark drove off at the of AOU and left the Avengers to Cap. And yes he did create Ultron, it was Wanda who allowed him to take the scepter not Hydra in the hope of getting revenge for his own weapon killing her parents. Ultron was his idea and he amitted to it, but like any true aI Ultron went random and decided the fate of humanity based on Tony's own model. But in the end Ultron was his idea to create an armor around the world, Ultron saw teh only way to do that was to destroy all life.

When you said walking away from The Avengers, I thought you ment at the ending of IM3. You are, ofcourse correct about him walking away from him at the end of AoU.
As for Wanda, she was instructed to do what she did by Strucker if I recall correctly. HYDRA found out about what Tony was doing, and wanted him to have the staff to finish his work, but not in the way he saw it.
And again, Tony did not create the Ultron that was ultimatly 'born'. He had other ideas. What was ultimatly created, was not what Tony wanted. Was he responsible? Yes. But was the Ultron we ultimatly got Toný's creation? No.

 

[DWF]

He never walked away from Iron Man or The Avengers in IM3, that's the problem. And that is never, ever stated. Again, the last line of the movie is I am Iron Man. And his desire to want to keep the world safe is also never said to be done with it. Never, every, anywhere in Iron Man 3 does Tony say anything like that.
He's gotten to terms with his PTSD and his OCD, but that doesn't mean he wants to stop keeping the world safe.

And as for creating Ultron...... He didn't create Ultron as we saw him. He created something else. But something went wrong, something unpredictable. Something unforeseen.
Like the inventors of the rocketengine. They didn't create missilses, they created rocketengines. What those engines became however, was something horrible.

EDIT TO ADD:
I think it's important that people see the difference between the Ultron Program Tony wanted to create, and what was later influenced by Wanda, and ultimatly became the AI that is Ultron. I mean, HYDRA wanted Tony to find the Staff and influence his work, don't forget that.

Stark drove off at the of AOU and left the Avengers to Cap. And yes he did create Ultron, it was Wanda who allowed him to take the scepter not Hydra in the hope of getting revenge for his own weapon killing her parents. Ultron was his idea and he amitted to it, but like any true aI Ultron went random and decided the fate of humanity based on Tony's own model. But in the end Ultron was his idea to create an armor around the world, Ultron saw teh only way to do that was to destroy all life.

When you said walking away from The Avengers, I thought you ment at the ending of IM3. You are, ofcourse correct about him walking away from him at the end of AoU.
As for Wanda, she was instructed to do what she did by Strucker if I recall correctly. HYDRA found out about what Tony was doing, and wanted him to have the staff to finish his work, but not in the way he saw it.
And again, Tony did not create the Ultron that was ultimatly 'born'. He had other ideas. What was ultimatly created, was not what Tony wanted. Was he responsible? Yes. But was the Ultron we ultimatly got Toný's creation? No.

The twins acted against orders from Strucker, Wanda wanted revenge for her parent's death that was made clear in the movie. It was Tony's actions that brought about the creation of Ultron, whicjh was orignally meant to serve in his place as the defender of earth in case of another attack. In his vision given to him by Wanda he wasn't in his armor, Stark clearly sees a time when he can stop being Iron Man but the dream and Ultron will now certainly change his mind.

 

[Mage]

Ok, as far as I recall it was part of Strucker's plot to have the staff fall in the hands of Stark. I'm gonna have to wait untill the bluray is released to know for sure.

 

[DWF]

Pietro wanted to stop Stark from taking the scepter but Wanda simply smiled and stop him from doing it. wanda of course had no idea her actions would lead to the creation of Ultron and the possible destruction of the earth.

 

[Mage]

Like I said, not how I recalled it. But I'll see when I rewatch on bluray, and it is ofcourse possible that I mis-remember.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well, we're in somewhat uncharted territories with this whole cinematic universe thing. Many film critics will insist that each movie most be considered and evaluated purely on its own content, not taking into account the rest of their series. The San Francisco Chronicle's Mick Lasalle, for example, gave The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part I a terrible review on the basis that it didn't tell a full story. He knew full well the filmmakers only intended to tell half a story, of course, but he didn't care, and rated the movie as though there would be no Part II. I don't fully agree with that reasoning, but he's consistent about it, so I respect his stance.

By that line of thinking, Whedon had zero responsibility to fill in the gaps between his movie and the end of IM3. You're saying he had full responsibility. Myself, I fall a bit in the middle. I would have liked to see AoU open with a half-hour of character introductions again, picking up each Avenger's story from where they left off and showing them assemble once more, but Whedon was obviously more interested in telling his Ultron story, which he'd wanted to do since the first movie. I didn't find said story very compelling, but that was clearly his/the movie's aim.

Personally, I get the impression that each film is given a certain amount of free story telling and a certain amount of required setup and IM3 very crucially screwed up that balance. Every source seems to indicate that Iron Man was always supposed to remain Iron Man, yet the amount of confusion on the subject makes it very clear that the ending as written did a piss poor job of conveying that.

Personally I really liked that this movie started already fully in motion and we didn't have to sit around waiting for the band to get back together again before the story could start, so from that pov, I'm more inclined to blame IM3 for this particular plot hole than AOU. Especially since - with the ridiculous amount of setup already packed into this film - I'm not sure it would've been fair to turn around and say they also have to alter the story to explicitly clarify IM3's poor ending as well.

On the other hand, I can understand if someone says that since the other movie failed to convey the idea, it needed to be addressed, period. I suppose it all comes down to what is more important in your eyes - smoothing over continuity problems between films or allowing individual films to tell their own story unburdened by the mistakes made in previous films.

That's an interesting thought, but I still blame Avengers 2 because IM3 (which I recall being well-received), set it up for Avengers 2, and so it was up to Avengers 2 to take the ball and run with it.

Otherwise, why make it the MCU? Why all the care and attention to detail in connecting these stories in the MCU? Just to be able to switch it off for Avengers 2?

You could have started Avengers 2 precisely as it did, with a great action sequence, but involve War Machine and have your "Safe House scene" involve returning Tony Stark to the action. Or maybe you could have Tony Stark earlier, but in a more advisory capacity.

It doesn't have to be a drawn out thing, but Stark walking away was a definite major development for Stark (again, the friggin' star of the whole damn franchise), and to have it virtually ignored seemed careless and sloppy.

But as I mentioned before, Tony Stark isn't the only character that somehow devolved. He just happens to stick out like a sore thumb because he is the star of the MCU and IM3 was very well received .

The difference between IM3 and A2 is quite glaring, making me feel that IM3 was expendable and meaningless. Whether you blame IM3 or Avengers 2, doesn't matter, because either way, it's a slight kink in MCU's armor, which was ironclad until now.

Once again, to clarify: I liked the movie overall, but the franchise is now showing some vulnerability for the first time in a long time.

In fact, I wold say MCU: Phase II was damn near flawless: IM3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, Guardians of the Galaxy---there's very little way I think those movies could be any better executed than they were. FLAWLESSLY executed...until it's climax in Avengers 2.

Unfortunately.

My point was specifically that IM3 didn't set up AoU the way it was supposed to. Ie, it was always the plan that Iron Man was not going to retire between IM3 and AoU and therefore everything was set up based on that plan, but the ending as set out in IM3 was just too damn ambiguous and confused the hell out of a lot of people. So at that point, once it's been screwed up, what's the better option? Change your plans for the biggest movie yet all at the last minute and risk confusing everyone even more (because as many fans as saw Tony 'retire' in IM3, there are an equal number who saw no such thing)? Or just let it be and move on?

Marvel chose door number two, and personally I can't fault them for it.

It is a (very) minor chink in the MCU armor. But it's not a big deal, really.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Was it certain that RDJ would return for more movies? Wasn't his original contract just for 3 Iron Man films plus the first Avengers or something like that?
What was his contract status when IM3 was written?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

He was under contract at the time to do AoU and the third Avengers movie. Before Civil war was announced (but after Iron Man 3) they reworked his contract so he could appear in Civil War (it's also possible they dealt with the ambiguity of Avengers 3 being two parts, but I suspect the single filming already took care of that).

 

[Trekker4747]

Again, I never got the impression Tony "retired" at the end of IM3. Everything we see and are told about Tony shows that he's a very OCD tinkerer. There was no way he was just going to move somewhere else, settle down, and have 2.3 kids with Pepper. It wasn't explicitly said, no, but reading well-enough between the lines it should have been clear Tony was going to move somewhere else and start building armors again.

The Starkinium-Powered Arc Reactor in his chest powers the man-sized suits he wore, the larger suits likely had secondary reactors in them. The suits while in storage have their own reactors in them either for use by someone else (Rhody, Pepper) or for autonomous operation. After removing the Arc Reactor from his own chest the suits had their own built-in dedicated Arc Reactors. The larger suits remained having secondary Arc Reactors for the heavier load and operation.

There's no evidence, anywhere, Tony discontinued using the Arc Reactor for powering anything as the movies pretty much established it was a very powerful, near-limitless, clean energy source that Tony was trying to expand more and more for wider use. Presumably this is "hard" to do since the largest thing it would seem an Arc Reactor has powered is Stark/Avengers Tower and has yet to be used to power even a segment of New York City, as far as we've been told at least.

 

[Karzak]

Um, it's pretty apparent from the final scene between Tony and Cap that Tony's done with the Avengers (for now, anyway).... that it's inexplicable why this is falls mainly on the inexplicable story and plot of the film. Frankly, I'm more irritated by that than any lack of mention about how or why he's able to still use the armor suits without the arc reactor in his chest.

 

[Trekker4747]

The end of AoU is odd and ambiguous as far as Tony's concerned. I take it Tony's more on "active reserve." If they need him, they push the "Panic" button and he comes flying in, quips and all. But he's not actively going around super-heroing anymore on a daily or regular basis.

It could be argued Tony's inventions and money is more important to The Avengers than Iron Man is.

 

[Rincewiend]

Frankly, I'm more irritated by that than any lack of mention about how or why he's able to still use the armor suits without the arc reactor in his chest.

Because Warmachine...

 

[Reverend]

Um, it's pretty apparent from the final scene between Tony and Cap that Tony's done with the Avengers (for now, anyway).... that it's inexplicable why this is falls mainly on the inexplicable story and plot of the film. Frankly, I'm more irritated by that than any lack of mention about how or why he's able to still use the armor suits without the arc reactor in his chest.

Yeah, I think the phrase he used was "tapping out" which is pretty much the same thing as "throwing in the towel", so he's done for the time being. Perhaps not with Iron Man, but certainly the Avengers, at least in any active front-line sense.