Alternative rank system.

[J.T.B.]

But they are both privates. There's no need for inventing two ranks of private there. Technically, the two have to intimately know the details of each other's service years in order to make the right decision about which should lead, as there is no decoration on their uniforms to establish that. In practice, they do not know that, and rely on somebody with more brass to tell them what to do. Why make that "sergeant" when "lieutenant" will do just as well?

But there are staff sergeants, sergeants, corporals, specialists, lance corporals, PFC's etc. in the platoon beside the privates, with correlation to levels of responsibility. Again, it's not the lieutenant and everyone else.

That's where Starfleet "indistinct masses" might differ a bit, if everybody is multitalented and flexibly employed. But that shouldn't affect things much, as said flexibility would in turn require the discarding of rigid microcommand structures, balancing the problem of nobody having microspeciality badges on their sleeves.

Nobody said there should be "microspecialty" badges. What I was asking was: Since Starfleet has obviously decided to grade enlisted personnel as "chief," "first class," "third class," "grade four" etc. what is the downside of recognizing those gradings with insignia?

That depends on what "employed" means. Using the better electrician to make decisions over wiring is sensible, but arguing on that basis that the better electrician can do the requests to the quartermaster is counterproductive - there's likely to be a better logistician in the team.

"Employed" means performing a job function. In response to the idea that there would be "no functional differentiation" between enlisted personnel of all experience levels. If there is no functional differentiation, why does Starfleet give personnel differentiated titles?

That's why meritocracies don't make for good hierarchies, unless one talks exclusively about hierarchy-running merits.

Oh please. Meritocracy means one is advanced based on ones own demonstrated ability, generally used in contrast to factors like inherited social status. Most modern militaries use meritocratic bases for promotion. The "hierarchy" element comes because of the practical requirements of military discipline. Which still obtain in Star Trek's day; there have been several episodes involving who takes over in a crisis, ordering personnel to their possible doom etc.

Third, even if there is no "special command training," which we can't rule out, qualities of leadership could (and most likely would) be a major factor for which personnel are advanced to higher grades.

Exactly. Which is why O'Brien shouldn't be allowed higher grades unless he can demonstrate qualities of leadership.

But he's already been allowed a higher grade: Chief Petty Officer or Master Chief Specialist or whatever. The fact that the production eventually had to come up with an (one-off?) insignia for him seems to be implicit acknowledgment of the weakness of the earlier lack of insignia.

Luckily, we see Starfleet doesn't work that way: two Picards, with identical graduation dates, can make completely dissimilar rank progress in the same number of years, depending on which sort of experience those years bring. Supposedly, the Picard that got higher rank gathered command-related experience specifically.

Abandonment of up-or-out personnel policies is a different issue from acknowledging various grades with uniform insignia.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

ST at least maintained some consistency with the real world ranks.

The original Battlestar Galactica was confusing as hell. Adama was the overall leader of the fleet, yet his rank was commander. Apollo had a rank of captain, which is a higher rank in the Navy than a commander, yet he was clearly a subordinate to Adama. Tigh was a Colonel.....which isn't even a rank used by the Navy, and also a Colonel, when compared to their Navy counterparts, is a MUCH higher rank than commander, yet he was also Adama's subordinate. Also a Captain in the Navy is equal to a Colonel in the other services but again it was pretty clear that Tigh was Apollo's superior.

Starbuck, Boomer and pretty much everyone else who had a title seemed to hold the rank of Lieutenant, which they got right in it was lower than all the aforementioned ranks.

But then it seemed like a good part of the Galactica's crew didn't seem to have a rank at all because they were never addressed by it, they were just called by their name.

And the lowest and highest officer ranks in the Navy: Ensign and Admiral were just left out completely.

It would have made sense if they called Adama a General because than all the ranks would have fit within the Army, USAF and USMC a General is superior to a Colonel who is superior a Captain (in the non navy services) who is superior to a Lieutenant. But by throwing in "Commander" as the head title is screws everything up and you wonder were they using Lieutenant and Captain in the non Navy ranks along with Colonel and they for some reason just decided to make Commander the leader. Or were they using Lieutenant and Captain in the Navy ranks and for some reason decided to make Commander a superior rank to Captain and then just threw in Colonel for the hell of it.

If you're going to use traditional military ranks you might as well keep them consistent with reality. It's kind of stupid to use ranks but then change their actual authority or mix in Navy and other service ranks together just to be different.

I think I remember reading somewhere in the original BSG, Glen Larson simply didn't understand military ranks at all and arranged Captain, Colonel and Commander in alphabetical order.

For the modern series, Ron Moore considered applying a more realistic rank system but decided to stick with the original for nostalgia purposes. Though there is some better thought and layout, it is still a weird amalgam of army and navy ranks for the officers, though the enlisted are consistently naval ranks.

Larson really didn't have a clue then. I think a little research would have cleared up his confusion.

The most logical order would have been Admiral Adama, Captain Tigh, Commander Apollo and Lieutenant Starbuck and co.

Or if he wanted to do it with the other services ranks that it would have been General Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Apollo and Lieutenant Starbuck.

At least ST gets it right with the order of ranks and the fact that the Navy ranks are used by people who serve in starfleet and the occasional non Navy rank, like Colonel West in the cut scene from TUC was some kind of ground based attack force.

Strangely enough SW gets it right with the Empire in that Admirals and other Navy ranks are used with members in the Imperial Fleet and seemingly in the correct order. While Ground forces carry the Army and Co titles like General Veers.

But the Rebel forces are all messed up. In ESB Han is a Captain and Luke a Commander, but they don't ever seem to explain which is higher. Then in ROTJ suddenly Han is a General, along with Lando (who apparently goes from no rank right up to a General) despite the fact they seem to do most of their fighting as members of the fleet and not on the ground. Also other Generals we'd seen in the rebels were also guys who seemed like mostly Ground attack guys and they carried a lot of authority, whereas Han and Lando were still just basically guys doing the hand to hand fighting despite being "Generals"

Then we meet Admiral "It's a Trap" Ackbar who is in command of the fleet. Makes sense, but then why wouldn't Han and Lando also be Admirals since they were mostly fleet warriors. Are Admirals and Generals all part of the same overall Rebel rank system with Admirals being superior? Or do the Rebels have separate ranks for different military branches. And why the hell is Luke still only a Commander when he did more to lead the Rebels to victory when either Han or Lando did? Why didn't he apparently get a promotion........

Again why bother to use real ranks yet not bother to follow the actual use of them.

 

[Autistoid]

Still haven't seen anyone mention some core issues.


TNG was not suppose to have non coms.



In our modern world non com's are usually people with very little education choosing to take the accelerated route into service.

Since many of the roles in service require vocational level training this isn't an issue.

However starfleet is largely comprised of highly educated people who seemingly have unlimited access to education.

Than why are 900 people out of 1000 non coms.

People like chief obrien proove that this makes no sense.

Multiple people have mentioned his lack of command credentials. Yet multiple times in DS9 he's shown as someone that can lead.

He has not just engineering experience, leadership(default command of DS9), as well a Combat competency.

If you contrasted him with Commander Troi the amount of credentials is staggering. And she's not just some ensign nor is she particularly low on the totem pole.

Than you have people like Leforge with only 4 years of Academy education being a chief engineer, when even today a masters of engineering can take 5-7 year without and officer training.

These gaps are huge and are not simply something that can be explain by referencing modern navies.

 

[Ithekro]

Captain Solo, is a title rather than a rank. He is captain of the Millenium Falcon. General, later on seem Army based. Though it is possible that in Star Wars a General is under an Admiral, though the opposite could be true. Jedi Generals would command fleets with an Admiral onboard.

General in the case of Lando is Air Force usage. I image he's being given command of what use to be the Starfighter Command for Endor. His rank seems to be a privliage title, much like the title of General was given to the Jedi during the Clone Wars. They had no military rank prior to leading clones into battle, and wer given the titles "general" for the main Jedi and "commander" for the secondary Jedi (padawans and some knights under masters).

Luke may be a commander as part of the Alliance Navy, or the Alliance is following Clone Wars tradition and given him the title Republic/Jedi rank of Commander as being under the late General Kenobi.


For thing like Battlestar Galactic, I see them has hybrid rank systems. Either combined forces that used some of each services ranks, or the later divided services would use some of those ranks later on in history (depending on how one interpretes events). In their case, you have lieutenants in both services. A captain in this instance is more captain of the guard rather than of the ship. You then have colonels above the captains. But who commands the ship? The Commander of course. Or is that a fleet Commander? He's not some generalist, he commands.


For Star Trek: Where is the number for 900 out of 1000 being enlisted or non-coms coming from?

For O'Brian, there isn't an issue of command training. What he has is decades of experiance. Also chiefs lead in the navy. A chief (E-7) is like a Master Sargent in the Air Force or a Sargent First Class in the Army. These are non-coms that would run departments on some ships under an officer they might report to. They are listed as leaders in the navy.

Non-coms being E-4 to E-6. Senior Non-com being E-7 to E-9
Enlisted being E-1 to E-3.

 

[Darkwing]

Still haven't seen anyone mention some core issues.


TNG was not suppose to have non coms.

And it was a bad idea when proposed.

In our modern world non com's are usually people with very little education choosing to take the accelerated route into service.

The term you're looking for is "enlisted". NCO (Non-commissioned officers) are experienced enlisted in higher enlisted rank with leadership authority commensurate with their rank. E-3 and below are not "non-coms" (E-4 and below in non-naval services).

Since many of the roles in service require vocational level training this isn't an issue.

However starfleet is largely comprised of highly educated people who seemingly have unlimited access to education.

Today's enlistee is much better educated than yesterday's conscriptee.

Than why are 900 people out of 1000 non coms.

Because officers, as generalists and administrators, do not make the ship go or do anything; those 900 enlisted do all that. If we could scrap those specialist-trained enlisted and run the ship with only officers, why would you have 1,000 zeroes? Either those 100 "ohs" can do the job without the 900 "es", or they can't, in which case you replace 900 enlisted with 900+ officers and then find out no-one can drive (helmsman in a junior enlisted job today) or start the engines, so they all get sent to the same schools the no-longer-existent enlisted went to. Now you have 1,000 lieutenants with a hundred different skill specialties and little to distinguish them. Bureau of Starfleet Personnel has to actually read every officer's files to see what billets they can send them to. But if you have enlisted people with rates, the detailer can easily see "QM1", and know that I can fill any E-6 navigation billet. If he's desperate, he can slot me in for an E-7 billet, or drop me to an E-5 billet just to fill the pick - won't change my rank or pay, it's just the slot I'm filling. He won't have to read my file in-depth to know not to put me in for a Supply billet, because he saw my rate was Quartermaster, not Supply Clerk (SK).

People like chief obrien proove that this makes no sense.

Multiple people have mentioned his lack of command credentials. Yet multiple times in DS9 he's shown as someone that can lead.

He has not just engineering experience, leadership(default command of DS9), as well a Combat competency.

If you contrasted him with Commander Troi the amount of credentials is staggering. And she's not just some ensign nor is she particularly low on the totem pole.

She's a Staff Officer who got her command quals late. Line officers start immediately getting those quals. Senior Chief Technical Specialist O'Brien (as he specifically explicated in one ep, establishing his rate and rank as E-8 Technical Specialist) has authority over any E-7 and below in his command, and only has authority over any E-9 or O-1+ when it is delegated as part of his watch or billet (aside from safety or regulation enforcement. As an E-5, I required an admiral to fix his uniform, as specified in the regs. Most people are too in awe of the rank to remember the regs say "any rank" must enforce them on any rank. That delegated me the authority to tell an O-7 to unfuck himself. But I could not have then ordered him to sweep my bridge wing or to stop blocking my bearing taker's telescopic alidade. )

Than you have people like Leforge with only 4 years of Academy education being a chief engineer, when even today a masters of engineering can take 5-7 year without and officer training.

Who needs an engineering degree to be the generalist administrator in charge of a bunch of specialists who do all the actual work?

These gaps are huge and are not simply something that can be explain by referencing modern navies.

Not that I see, after 20 years in the navy.

 

[Darkwing]

For BSG, I figured back then it must be something like Wing Commander specified - fighter pilots used Army/AF ranks, Galactica mostly used naval ranks, but the XO used Army rank, as the nominal head of the flight detachment. Then, just like much sci-fi misuses "Destroyer" as "battleship", "Commander" gets used as "higher than a captain, but lower than an admiral, and it sounds nautical".

 

[Autistoid]

The term you're looking for is "enlisted". NCO (Non-commissioned officers) are experienced enlisted in higher enlisted rank with leadership authority commensurate with their rank. E-3 and below are not "non-coms" (E-4 and below in non-naval services).

Today's enlistee is much better educated than yesterday's conscriptee.

Because officers, as generalists and administrators, do not make the ship go or do anything; those 900 enlisted do all that. If we could scrap those specialist-trained enlisted and run the ship with only officers, why would you have 1,000 zeroes? Either those 100 "ohs" can do the job without the 900 "es", or they can't, in which case you replace 900 enlisted with 900+ officers and then find out no-one can drive (helmsman in a junior enlisted job today)

Who needs an engineering degree to be the generalist administrator in charge of a bunch of specialists who do all the actual work?

I would agree with what your saying if that's what we've seen on screen.

However the whole point is that this never appears to be the reality.

Leforge isn't just an administrator he can do almost everything within the realm of engineering.

Riker can work tactical.

Science officers make great pilots etc.

Officers are not shown just to be administrators but also jack of all trades as well.

 

[Autistoid]

As a suggestion to an alternative rank system here goes.

A profession group has room both to be promoted into Officer positions as well as receive education to be promoted to a higher level of expertise.

2nd Class Technician (Equivalent to a one year diploma)
1st Class Technician (Equivalent to a 2 year diploma)
4th Class Engineer (Technologist or highly trained technician/no degree)
3rd Class Engineer (Engineering school graduated but not a PE)
2nd Class Engineer (Highly experience Professional engineer)
1st Class Engineer (Basically equivalent to a Experienced engineer with a masters degree)
Senior Engineer ( On par with an ensign )
Lead Engineer ( On par with Lieutenant )
Chief Engineer (on Par or interchangeable with LTCMDR)
Master Chief Engineer. ( Can command LTCMDR within engineering)

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Captain Solo, is a title rather than a rank. He is captain of the Millenium Falcon. General, later on seem Army based. Though it is possible that in Star Wars a General is under an Admiral, though the opposite could be true. Jedi Generals would command fleets with an Admiral onboard.

General in the case of Lando is Air Force usage. I image he's being given command of what use to be the Starfighter Command for Endor. His rank seems to be a privliage title, much like the title of General was given to the Jedi during the Clone Wars. They had no military rank prior to leading clones into battle, and wer given the titles "general" for the main Jedi and "commander" for the secondary Jedi (padawans and some knights under masters).

Luke may be a commander as part of the Alliance Navy, or the Alliance is following Clone Wars tradition and given him the title Republic/Jedi rank of Commander as being under the late General Kenobi.


For thing like Battlestar Galactic, I see them has hybrid rank systems. Either combined forces that used some of each services ranks, or the later divided services would use some of those ranks later on in history (depending on how one interpretes events). In their case, you have lieutenants in both services. A captain in this instance is more captain of the guard rather than of the ship. You then have colonels above the captains. But who commands the ship? The Commander of course. Or is that a fleet Commander? He's not some generalist, he commands.


For Star Trek: Where is the number for 900 out of 1000 being enlisted or non-coms coming from?

For O'Brian, there isn't an issue of command training. What he has is decades of experiance. Also chiefs lead in the navy. A chief (E-7) is like a Master Sargent in the Air Force or a Sargent First Class in the Army. These are non-coms that would run departments on some ships under an officer they might report to. They are listed as leaders in the navy.

Non-coms being E-4 to E-6. Senior Non-com being E-7 to E-9
Enlisted being E-1 to E-3.

I considered Han's captain title in ESB to be one recognizing his being captain of the Falcon as opposed to an actual rebel rank. But he was never called it in Star Wars. Suddenly in ESB everyone is calling him captain. The rebel general on Hoth calls him it, so does Rogue 2 when he's searching for him and Luke, hell even Vader and Boba Fett call him Captain Solo. That seems like a lot of people from all sides to call you by some unofficial rank just because you own a spaceship.

 

[J.T.B.]

Captain Solo, is a title rather than a rank. He is captain of the Millenium Falcon.

Agreed.

I considered Han's captain title in ESB to be one recognizing his being captain of the Falcon as opposed to an actual rebel rank. But he was never called it in Star Wars. Suddenly in ESB everyone is calling him captain. The rebel general on Hoth calls him it, so does Rogue 2 when he's searching for him and Luke, hell even Vader and Boba Fett call him Captain Solo. That seems like a lot of people from all sides to call you by some unofficial rank just because you own a spaceship.

Well, there weren't as many formal/official conversations in Star Wars. But Ben called Chewbacca "first mate," what's the title we use for the person in charge of a vessel that has a first mate? "Captain" has been the courtesy title for the master of a merchant vessel for hundreds of years.

Old BSG seemed to be basically an army structure, with "ensign" instead of "2nd lietuenant" (which was how it was actually used at one time), and with "commander" replacing "general." Was there ever a major? Actually it kind of had a Battle of Britain RAF feel, with a lot of junior officer and even sergeant fighter pilots.

 

[Ithekro]

When I looked up the older BSG ranks eariler today there were no examples of majors in the show.

 

[The Wormhole]

The TOS movies show plenty of enlisted personnel, they're the ones wearing jumpsuits in TWOK-TUC. Although many often mistake these people for cadets, indeed Nemesis shows young Cadet Picard dressed in that uniform.

The uniforms for cadets and enlisted personnel in that timeframe are identical. Only difference is the sweater worn underneath: red for cadets, dark blue for enlisted.

Actually, the intent with TWOK was that cadets wear the officer's uniform with a red undershirt, like what Saavik wore. Enlisted with red shirts were trainees.

Besides, even if we accepted that cadets did wear the jumpsuits, but with red while enlisted wore the dark blue (which actually looks black to me) then Nemesis still screwed up.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I considered Han's captain title in ESB to be one recognizing his being captain of the Falcon as opposed to an actual rebel rank. But he was never called it in Star Wars. Suddenly in ESB everyone is calling him captain.

That's untrue. In EPIV, Han introduced himself as "captain of the Millennium Falcon."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Han was a civilian captain. If he ever served in any actual armed force pre-SW, I'm not aware of it.

 

[Darkwing]

I would agree with what your saying if that's what we've seen on screen.

However the whole point is that this never appears to be the reality.

Leforge isn't just an administrator he can do almost everything within the realm of engineering.

Riker can work tactical.

Science officers make great pilots etc.

Officers are not shown just to be administrators but also jack of all trades as well.

That's an artifact of compressing the cast and conflating the roles of all the background parts. Just as one of the conciets of the show was that the Enterprise stood in for all the other ships saving the galaxy, so do the main cast stand in for all the enlisted who really do the work they're shown doing. We see Geordi with his hands on the warp core while several extras mill around in the background, but what would really happen is that Geordi would have a hundred people doing the work while he supervised. Filming tht is problematic, and it's easier for the audience to relate to one guy they know doing that work, so we *see* it reduced to the false image.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, the intent with TWOK was that cadets wear the officer's uniform with a red undershirt, like what Saavik wore.

I always thought those cadets (with the officer unis) were senior cadets, who were just about to graduate (and who may already have honorary officer ranks, like Kirk did when he took a cadet cruise as an Ensign). The ones with the jumpsuits are more junior cadets, fresh out of the Academy.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I considered Han's captain title in ESB to be one recognizing his being captain of the Falcon as opposed to an actual rebel rank. But he was never called it in Star Wars. Suddenly in ESB everyone is calling him captain.

That's untrue. In EPIV, Han introduced himself as "captain of the Millennium Falcon."

I meant he was never called it by anyone besides himself.

In ESB everyone from rebel officers to Vader and Boba Fett are calling him captain. Like I said seems like a lot of people to call him by some unofficial rank.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I considered Han's captain title in ESB to be one recognizing his being captain of the Falcon as opposed to an actual rebel rank. But he was never called it in Star Wars. Suddenly in ESB everyone is calling him captain.

That's untrue. In EPIV, Han introduced himself as "captain of the Millennium Falcon."

I meant he was never called it by anyone besides himself.

In ESB everyone from rebel officers to Vader and Boba Fett are calling him captain. Like I said seems like a lot of people to call him by some unofficial rank.

Why would it be unofficial?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It wouldn't be.

Han is captain of the Millennium Falcon because he owns and runs it, not due to being in any kind of military (because the MF is obviously not a military vessel, and Han has never been in the military that we know of). Han's captaincy is real and official - it's just not military.

A captain of a civilian ship, such as the MF, is no less a captain. He's a captain by position, not by rank.