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The Measure of a Man: personhood, artifical intelligence, etc.

Kor

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
I just watched the extended version of this episode on blu ray. I always appreciate episodes that are written by actual science fiction authors.

What are your thoughts on the issues raised in this episode?
Is it possible for artificial intelligence to be truly self-aware? Does Data have a "soul"?

And do you have any thoughts on the episode itself, in terms of characterization, acting, writing, etc, as well as the differences between the aired episode and the extended version? I actually thought the poker game scene had tighter pacing in the aired version. But I only watched a bit of the aired version before deciding to watch the extended version instead, so I can't remember what other differences there were.

Kor
 
Remind us what's in the extended version.

The computer system on the Enterprise is (supposedly) physically huge, I often wonder why it isn't considered to be alive, or maybe it was purposely designed not to be so.

:)
 
Remind us what's in the extended version.

More character interaction, I think. It adds up to thirteen minutes of additional footage. I can't remember what all the differences are, since I haven't watched the aired version in a couple years.

The computer system on the Enterprise is (supposedly) physically huge, I often wonder why it isn't considered to be alive, or maybe it was purposely designed not to be so.

:)

The question was actually touched upon in the episode.
Maddox: Would you permit the computer of the Enterprise to refuse a refit?
Louvois: That's an interesting point. But the Enterprise computer is property. Is Data?

Kor
 
What are your thoughts on the issues raised in this episode?
Is it possible for artificial intelligence to be truly self-aware? Does Data have a "soul"?

While I think that this is one of the better "bottle" episodes, after thinking about the issues raised, some things didn't make sense to me.

For example - Is Data a life form or property? It seems to me that once he became an officer in StarFleet, those questions were already answered. "Toasters" do not become officers. So, the issue never really should have come up. Is there any other example in all of Star Trek where "property" was a StarFleet Officer? I don't think so.

Still, I'm not going to let that ruin the episode for me.

I also think "The Offspring" was another brilliant episode but once again, the events with the "bad admiral" never should have occurred. It raised the whole property issue again even though that was decided in "The Measure of a Man." It was nice to see Picard refer to those events and stand up to the Admiral but it really never should have happened. Even when Picard found out that Data had created a daughter, he seemed to chastise him, as if Data did something wrong so it seems while the property issue had been decided, there still remained some doubt, even in Picard's mind.

But...to answer your question...we still have humans questioning whether humans have a soul so at the very least, we should give "artificial intelligence" the benefit of the doubt and leave the question open.

I think JAG Phillipa Louvois said it best:

PHILLIPA: Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself.
 
My stance on the subject is rare here on TrekBBS but I'm one of the few who don't think Data or the Doctor or anyone like them are life forms. Don't get me wrong, in The Measure of a Man, Data should have had the right not to be broken down but that's more because his protagonist had no right to take him apart, not to forget they made him an officer and he get's the rights thereof. Though, if they did that same episode but had Noonian Soong say something like "I forgot to put this in and that other system is faulty. Let me dismantle him," I would have sided with Soong, Data is his. As for following him, I would and not repeat what that guy did in "Redemption Part II". I respect Soong's greatness and acknowledge Data's past deeds but I'd never rank him up there with us evolved life-forms. Those millions of years of effort can't be matched in some guy's afternoon.
 
I'm very fond of this episode for many reasons. The way it opens on the lightest note possible, for a start, belying the gravitas to follow:

Phillipa Louvois' sexual aggressiveness is unusual amongst the very few women Picard's been romantically involved with and it's amusing to see him mildly bemused, yet not offput by it. Putting Data's rights on trial is an interesting concept, but less-so for Android Freedom of Choice, as a reminder that rights - in general - are always being threatened in Real Life. And as is evidenced in this episode, the mechanism for dealing with this unfortunate reality is a very flawed one.

That's almost terrifying, to know that our very lives could hang in the balance of a representative's ability to convince a third party of our innocence and worth. It doesn't always work in our favour and the situation that Riker is forced into also has very interesting implications and connotations for Real Life. For example, an "intervention" where you kind of have to Tough Love someone, by hurting their pride - or worse - to help them regain control over their lives. And when Data seeks Riker out at the end of this episode, it's one of the finer moments of the series, actually.

I'm very impressed with all that this episode touches on in such a static way, that is, a "talky" episode. It only gets preachy when Guinan gets involved and it's a little too "in your face," intentionally so. But Picard doesn't take the fruits of that discussion and beat it over the heads of those in the hearing. No. Indeed, he does mention it, but he underscores the basic values STAR TREK has always claimed to cherish and embody. Measure of a Man covers so much metaphor and then comes around full circle and brings it back into STAR TREK mode in a surprisingly entertaining way. Even though this is Data's big show, it's one of Riker's most profoundly personal tests. I mean, watch his reactions as he's gathering evidence against Data ... hell ... it's heavy duty stuff.
 
For example - Is Data a life form or property? It seems to me that once he became an officer in StarFleet, those questions were already answered. "Toasters" do not become officers. So, the issue never really should have come up. Is there any other example in all of Star Trek where "property" was a StarFleet Officer? I don't think so.

Still, I'm not going to let that ruin the episode for me.

I also think "The Offspring" was another brilliant episode but once again, the events with the "bad admiral" never should have occurred. It raised the whole property issue again even though that was decided in "The Measure of a Man." It was nice to see Picard refer to those events and stand up to the Admiral but it really never should have happened. Even when Picard found out that Data had created a daughter, he seemed to chastise him, as if Data did something wrong so it seems while the property issue had been decided, there still remained some doubt, even in Picard's mind.
Yeah, it tends to be a tough premise to suspend disbelief on, because clearly, once you recognize someone's ability to swear an oath to your institution, that, in and of itself, IS a recognition of their rights as a person in your institution

That said, you have to forgive it, because it does create a pretty beautiful metaphor for equal rights, and the delicacy & specificity that can be placed on liberty. One wonders what kind of constraints of liberty were placed on Data before he joined Starfleet, if it seems that even after they recognize their personhood, they can still be subjugated the way they were trying with Lal

In some ways, it seems like the worst thing Data ever did to harm his freedom is join Starfleet. Had he not, what were they going to do. Tell him he's their property?
 
In the TV show, is Data sentient? Obviously.

In real life, is it possible? I believe that there is no such thing as a soul separate from the body and our experience of consciousness is an illusion created by chemical reactions in the brain. So can the same illusion be created by a different process? Sure. It would need to be capable of generating new circuits on its own responding in a dynamic, unpredictable way that relates its own actions to positive and negative stimuli. But if you can make sentience with organic compounds and electric impulses why not something else?
 
"Illusions" vs. "real souls" notwithstanding, I don't see why it should matter whether a person (of any shape) should have a soul, or be sentient, or sapient, or whatever.

The proof is in the pudding. If the person (or animal, or object, or illusion, or whatever) can do the job, let him apply and then choose him if he's the best choice. If said whatnot applies for a permit, give it to him unless something specific stands in the way. If he proposes, say yes if it pleases you.

There's no test for sentience required of humans, although sometimes it might be nice to have one. There are specific tests for specific goals and aims that somebody like Data would pass with flying colors.

I have no problem believing that Starfleet would accept Data without requiring him to produce a document saying he's a person, or sapient, or whatever. Starfleet accepts weird aliens as members all the time, and must have exceptionally loose standards of what qualifies as a candidate!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Some interesting things relating to sentience were discussed on the Is the Doctor a real person thread and the is Tuvix a real person thread

The computer system on the Enterprise is (supposedly) physically huge, I often wonder why it isn't considered to be alive, or maybe it was purposely designed not to be so.

Especially when it's a computer capable of creating sentience (Moriarty) whenever it pleases (though in hindsight, I don't personally believe Moriarty was ever sentient at all)
 
Of course it's possible, humans are biological machines and with AI, human beings have contracted billions of years of evolution into a few short decades of AI research that has already reached mouse level intelligence.

For an in-depth look at the possibility of Strong AI I recommend this book which deals with scientific possibilities as a court case:

http://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Lost-John-L-Casti/dp/0380711656

and it's sequel:

http://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Reg...7-2762222?ie=UTF8&refRID=1ZQA7MZTG8WAPYVBDN3B
 
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A big issue here is that we have exactly one (1) example of sapience to go by. When we start churning out AIs or uplifting animals or encountering aliens, that single example will no doubt turn out to be a rather special case, not representative of the concept of sapience at all.

But our ideas of sapience will be rooted so deep that we might well fail to accept the other forms of sapience when they politely say hello to us or take over our culture or simply ignore us. We will choose to interpret them as something else, clinging on to our own uniqueness with desperation unbecoming of a sapient. After all, we still struggle with the concept of being part of the animal kingdom, even though it ought to suffice that we are unique animals, and pretty nifty sort of unique, too. It's no shame that the common earthworm can claim the very same thing, from its own point of view...

Timo Saloniemi
 
My stance on the subject is rare here on TrekBBS but I'm one of the few who don't think Data or the Doctor or anyone like them are life forms. Don't get me wrong, in The Measure of a Man, Data should have had the right not to be broken down but that's more because his protagonist had no right to take him apart, not to forget they made him an officer and he get's the rights thereof. Though, if they did that same episode but had Noonian Soong say something like "I forgot to put this in and that other system is faulty. Let me dismantle him," I would have sided with Soong, Data is his. As for following him, I would and not repeat what that guy did in "Redemption Part II". I respect Soong's greatness and acknowledge Data's past deeds but I'd never rank him up there with us evolved life-forms. Those millions of years of effort can't be matched in some guy's afternoon.


Why is the nature of Data's creation determinative of whether he is a life form?
 
Today, right now, in actual (USA) reality, you can legally be a person without having a physical body or the least hint of sapience.



Extending this into the future, it would be possible to at least argue that an artifical humanoid would be able to fight for its rights as a person using, I don't know, actual real lawyers in actual real courts.

The question is too important - and no doubt relevant to many other 24th century organizations and technologies and artificial intelligences - to be left to a few legal amateurs.



Otherwise, rather than argue a philosophical issue in court, Riker could have simply registered Mister Data as a corporation. That would have granted him legal rights as a person - able to own property, to vote, to "pursue happiness", and all those other American values intrinsic to the UFP.

(Don't get me started on their alleged unfamiliarity with "economic systems". That future was FULL of resources with distributions in contest. The only thing they did not have was a paper currency system).

If all organizations fell under the purview of the UFP, then all that did was give them even more protections from theft; not fewer, like it was some kind of communism.



Furthermore - given the existence of Lore, B4, Juliana Soong, Lal, (am I forgetting anyone?), it stands to reason that producing the physical components of an android body is a simple matter of experimental replication - and as a renowned scientist, Soong would have made his work peer-reviewable and replicable. Or simply a matter of running the replicator itself.

The challenge, as I interpret it, lay in the cognitive aspects, that which broke down in Lal and destroyed her personhood. In other words, there is no reason whatsoever that Starfleet would not be able to procure Data's plans and replicate model androids at will.

While Soong was a genius and an artisan, he operated in the physical universe; his work was in failing until he found a process that worked. Replicating the process would not, in fact, be that difficult to manufacture - for example, the light bulb.



By the way, another way to avoid Federation jurisdiction is to simply go outside the Federation itself. Data could have taken a shuttle to some nonmember world, disembarked, and resigned his commission.
 
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as a renowned scientist, Soong would have made his work peer-reviewable and replicable
Actually, quite the opposite - Soong, once burned, was mortally afraid of being ridiculed, and went to great pains to hide his work from his peers. Neither Lore nor Data were made public, as Soong kept tinkering with them (despite both displaying what must amount to perfection as far as artificial intelligence goes); the only reason even Data was ever "released" was because the Crystalline Entity attack forced Soong's hand.

Whether Soong's paranoia made him miss out on some IP rights regarding his work, we don't know. And Soong probably didn't care: whatever the economic reality of the future, Soong would be one of the "haves", in no need of financial compensation, and could defend his intellectual primacy here without the need for courts of law.

I agree that making positronic brains or at least brain components is not rocket science, once you know the tricks. Before Soong, nobody did. After Soong, Data at least did - and no doubt Maddox and others had made sufficient scans to attempt their own copies. Yet turning that tech into working AI systems that can run android bodies clearly takes a lot of work, or Maddox wouldn't have come begging for a piece of Data, and Lal wouldn't have failed. But turning it into something simpler, such as partial brain prosthetics, is doable, and done, as per DS9 "Life Support".

The argument about android armies was a straw man of little consequence: replicators allow for mass production of armies, be they android or human, but clearly this is not worth doing for reason X. If X applies to human armies, it is likely to apply to android armies as well, since we have not been given much reason to think Data would be significantly simpler than biological life.

OTOH, there also seems to exist a reason Y that keeps the UFP from pursuing androids in general, and not just positronic ones. A likely reason is that androids are worthless: if there's a job that requires them, holograms are much better, cheaper and more flexible physical manifestations for the control system (be it an AI-level computer or something much simpler). It's just that Soong considered an android body the perfect way of showcasing his fantastic new positronic brain. Perhaps the forte of positronics is in compactness, and demonstrating that the tech can squeeze a full AI into a humanoid skull was thought by Soong to provide a sufficient wow effect?

In other words, there is no reason whatsoever that Starfleet would not be able to procure Data's plans and replicate model androids at will.

Better still, replicators don't need plans - they can operate blind! We see this in DS9 "Rivals", where a piece of alien tech can not merely be replicated using a regular Cardassian (Ferengi?) food replicator, but also scaled up without (AFAWK) loss of functionality. Shoving Data into an industrial replicator and pressing "COPY" would fill the universe with Datas.

But reasons X and Y would make that futile. Even Maddox doesn't want more Datas; Maddox only wants to know how Data was made and what makes him tick, and greater numbers of the android will add nothing to that equation. (Sure, he could replicate one extra Data he could then vivisect, but there he would no doubt run into the very same legal complications he faced when trying to vivisect the original Data.)

By the way, another way to avoid Federation jurisdiction is to simply go outside the Federation itself. Data could have taken a shuttle to some nonmember world, disembarked, and resigned his commission.
Certainly; note that Soong went there, too! But fighting in court was the path of least resistance. Had Data tried to go abroad, he might have had to physically fight his way there, burning more bridges than was to his liking.

Also, everything points to Data having had a rather miserable time interacting with wetware until meeting Captain Picard and being drafted to his elite crew. All his discoveries in the field of humanity come in early TNG, despite his Starfleet career spanning more than a decade. Clearly, life without Picard would be much less desirable than life with Picard.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I do think AI could become sentient and aware and mimic humans enough to be indistinguishable. But the method of their intelligence would be quite different, and there are tons of possibilities for that intelligence to go screwy in ways that human brains couldn't. We imagine they'd have human values like Data but that would have to be carefully programmed in or learned.

Picard's speech kind of cracks me up in this episode. "I don't remember the definition of life, do you? Do you? How about you? Anybody? A little help? I'm dying up here..."

I like this episode a lot but not as much as some people, I even prefer Riker's rashomon trial episode. I do like the length of the extended cut of this one though, wish more episodes were that long.
 
I'm imagining taking an android friend to Radio Shack for a virus sweep.
"I think he's got one of those porn site viruses. He keeps - oh shit, there he goes again, everybody stand back!"
 
My stance on the subject is rare here on TrekBBS but I'm one of the few who don't think Data or the Doctor or anyone like them are life forms. Don't get me wrong, in The Measure of a Man, Data should have had the right not to be broken down but that's more because his protagonist had no right to take him apart, not to forget they made him an officer and he get's the rights thereof. Though, if they did that same episode but had Noonian Soong say something like "I forgot to put this in and that other system is faulty. Let me dismantle him," I would have sided with Soong, Data is his. As for following him, I would and not repeat what that guy did in "Redemption Part II". I respect Soong's greatness and acknowledge Data's past deeds but I'd never rank him up there with us evolved life-forms. Those millions of years of effort can't be matched in some guy's afternoon.


Why is the nature of Data's creation determinative of whether he is a life form?

They aren't alive, just fantastic simulations.
 
The broadcast episode is great (I almost always avoid watching extended versions) but I am disturbed by how easily both Data and the Doctor can be reprogrammed and turn to malicious intentions and actions, for their free will and responsibility to be so limited does suggest that there rights do deserve less consideration than biological people (true that others can essentially be brainwashed/"reprogrammed" but not so easily). They should still deserve some consideration, which precludes destroying them just to get some social benefits, let alone getting the benefits more quickly.
 
My stance on the subject is rare here on TrekBBS but I'm one of the few who don't think Data or the Doctor or anyone like them are life forms. Don't get me wrong, in The Measure of a Man, Data should have had the right not to be broken down but that's more because his protagonist had no right to take him apart, not to forget they made him an officer and he get's the rights thereof. Though, if they did that same episode but had Noonian Soong say something like "I forgot to put this in and that other system is faulty. Let me dismantle him," I would have sided with Soong, Data is his. As for following him, I would and not repeat what that guy did in "Redemption Part II". I respect Soong's greatness and acknowledge Data's past deeds but I'd never rank him up there with us evolved life-forms. Those millions of years of effort can't be matched in some guy's afternoon.


Why is the nature of Data's creation determinative of whether he is a life form?

They aren't alive, just fantastic simulations.

How do we know you're not? You could be an elaborate bot, for what we know.:devil:
 
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