Let's have a Nemesis appreciation thread. You know you want to...

[Smellmet]

I know it's not a popular choice around these parts, but if we can have a TFF appreciation thread, then surely we can have a Nemesis one.

I for one (let's hope it's more than one) find it the most entertaining of the TNG movies, and it's the one I watch the most out of the four. I know it's got it's problems, I even agree with most of them. I just have a big soft spot for it, I think it's got some good character moments in it (more on the deleted scenes) which are often overlooked, It's filmed well (but does look cheap in parts), great effects, has a decent score, and for my money the best ship battle in the entire franchise.

In every objective way it is a better movie than Insurrection in my opinion. First Contact runs it close for sheer entertainment, and I like a lot of Generations but I'll always come back to this one for rewatch value, even if it's just for the battle at the end sometimes.

Anyone else feel the same way?...

 

[Kor]

Ha! I was going to start this thread.

I agree that it was better than INS.
I actually didn't mind the Romulan costumes. I thought they looked much better than the TNG series suits with the huge shoulder pads.

Kor

 

[Relayer1]

Possibly the best TNG movie.

Not saying a lot, I know, but Insurrection's just a big episode (and not a particularly good one),Generations is awful and First Contact's very overrated...

 

[Smellmet]

All four are watchable - I still derive some enjoyment from Insurrection but it's by far of the weakest for me. Generations has massive plot and writing problems but looks and feels so much more special than Insurrection, and to a lesser degree First Contact, which whilst entertaining has just as big plot problems as any of the TNG movies, blows it's wad early effects wise but somehow pulls it off generally.

Nemesis just edges FC for me because it just seems a more polished movie, visually (as it should), has a slightly better score (with plenty of the Goldsmith TMP theme in it, which was great) and quite a dark tone to it, which none of the previous TNG movies had, which I don't think it gets enough kudos for after it's 'is this a serious film or not' predecessor. I also think it's the only TNG movie to treat the Enterprise E properly too, there are shedloads of great scenes of it in the movie. More than the other three put together.

I adore the wedding scene, which brings a tear to my eye that no other TNG movie manages when Picard says to his crew that they are 'his family' and whilst I would rather Data's death scene to have been done better as it was all to quick and brief, the bit where they are drinking the Chateaux Picard in his honour gets me every time too.

I know that a lot of elements were borrowed from TWOK (deadly weapon, downloading the 'katra' into B4) but so was STID, and I love that movie too so I don't care. I enjoyed Shinzon a lot more than Ruafo and probably as much as Soran too, despite the characters background and writing being a little questionable. The buggy sequence and the Reman ship invasion were pretty shit though.

I think the rest of the movie was pretty damn enjoyable though.

 

[Smellmet]

Ha! I was going to start this thread. Kor

It's your fault I have.

 

[xvicente]

Nemesis was a vast improvement from INS, this I can say.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Ha! I was going to start this thread. Kor

It's your fault I have.

Well I personally think it's the best of the TNG films, which is sort of a backhanded compliment I know.

I think, more than any other ST film, including NuTrek, takes more unfair criticism and I believe this, and it's poor showing at the box office is a result of INS being so terrible that many people just wrote the franchise off for good.

I believe that, strictly from an acting perspective, a strong case could be made for Hardy's portrayal of Shinzon being maybe the second best in any ST film behind Montablan. The problem with the character though, and why I rank him behind several other antagonists besides Khan for a villain, is he had no real motivation to act like he did.
His only real reason for being bitter at Picard was just because he was the person Shinzon was cloned from and Picard wasn't at fault for how Shinzon was treated by the romulans. It also wasn't the Federation or Earth's fault yet he seemed to hold a Khan like bitterness towards them
I guess you could just say his motivation was that he was a psycho and/or wanted to show everyone what a bad ass he was by wiping out earth. But that's really weak for a character as complex as Shinzon was supposed to be.

So I think it's entertaining. I don't like how massive starships just flew around for 30 minutes like fighter jets exchanging fire that did no real damage. I think a fight like in TWOK where they move like big warships in space and every hit had consequences is far better.

I think Nemesis is the Gerald Ford of ST films. Basically a decent and honorable effort, but it paid a huge price for the sins of its predecessor.

 

[Greg Cox]

I think Nemesis is the Gerald Ford of ST films. Basically a decent and honorable effort, but it paid a huge price for the sins of its predecessor.

Hah! I love that comparison.

Alas, the analogy breaks down if you push it further. The 2009 movie isn't exactly Jimmy Carter . . . especially since it got a second term!

Beyond that, I confess that I saw NEMESIS once the weekend it opened and have never revisited it since. I remember it being enjoyable enough, and liking the wedding scene and some of the dialogue, but I've never been motivated to watch it again.

 

[Smellmet]

So I think it's entertaining. I don't like how massive starships just flew around for 30 minutes like fighter jets exchanging fire that did no real damage. I think a fight like in TWOK where they move like big warships in space and every hit had consequences is far better.

I think they got that bit spot on. The Enterprise E was bound to be a little more agile than the TOS Enterprise being nearly a century newer. Besides I don't think the ships seemed any more agile than in the JJ films, and when the E's shields finally failed, the shots started blowing holes in the ship. The E-E was supposed to be the hardest ship in the fleet, so It seemed about right to me that it took a lot of shots before succumbing to the Scimitar, which, let's face it was a ridiculous vessel.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

So I think it's entertaining. I don't like how massive starships just flew around for 30 minutes like fighter jets exchanging fire that did no real damage. I think a fight like in TWOK where they move like big warships in space and every hit had consequences is far better.

I think they got that bit spot on. The Enterprise E was bound to be a little more agile than the TOS Enterprise being nearly a century newer. Besides I don't think the ships seemed any more agile than in the JJ films, and when the E's shields finally failed, the shots started blowing holes in the ship. The E-E was supposed to be the hardest ship in the fleet, so It seemed about right to me that it took a lot of shots before succumbing to the Scimitar, which, let's face it was a ridiculous vessel.

Well I could have a bit of personal bias. I'm a naval and WWII buff and I love reading about the sea battles where big gunned battleships and cruisers just stood off and pounded the hell out of each other until one side suffered enough losses that they retreated. There wasn't any real grace or strategy it was just basically open fire and keep shooting until either we or they sink.

The Enterprise/Reliant duel was like that in space. Two big, heavily armed ships that just kept firing at each other until the Enterprise finally got in the killing blows. It was just basically brute force on force.

I don't dislike the Scimitar/Ent-E fight...it's just a little too fancy for my tastes.

It's the same how about I feel about lightsaber duels in Star Wars. In the OT, especially in Empire and Jedi it was just basically Vader and Luke trying to pound the hell out of each other, like two guys fighting with real swords would do. There wasn't a lot of grace and fanciness to it and when Luke snapped in Jedi he didn't beat Vader with some cool elaborate move he basically whaled on Vader's ass until he submitted.

In the prequels they did all the spins and quicker moves and shit, and I know some people LOVE that, but to me it just looks like a highly choreographed fight that was practiced hundreds of times in rehersal instead of two guys really throwing down.

Although I do like the battle in Nemesis somewhat. I CANNOT STAND the duels in the SW prequels.

 

[Cyke101]

I believe that, strictly from an acting perspective, a strong case could be made for Hardy's portrayal of Shinzon being maybe the second best in any ST film behind Montablan. The problem with the character though, and why I rank him behind several other antagonists besides Khan for a villain, is he had no real motivation to act like he did.

I think time has forgiven and redeemed Hardy. Clearly his current success is a testament to his skill and work ethic, but he seemed to be misused in Nemesis. It's unfortunate that he felt that he was at fault for Nemesis' failure (slipping into severe depression that took years to recover from), when really it was writing and direction.

Here's his screen test with Patrick Stewart, as well as a comparison with the final product. I find the screen test much more engaging, more thoughtful, and more deliberate. Hardy really took into account the probable fact that Shinzon's PTSD and inner-Picard would come into conflict. The final product, I feel, comes across more as snively and villainous for villainy's sake, as if all that Shinzon needed was a mustache to twirl; so direction had blunted Hardy's efforts.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6blOgs6r7MM[/yt]

(plus, how neat is it to see Patrick Stewart and Tom Hardy on set from Star Trek: Enterprise?)

 

[Kor]

So I think it's entertaining. I don't like how massive starships just flew around for 30 minutes like fighter jets exchanging fire that did no real damage. I think a fight like in TWOK where they move like big warships in space and every hit had consequences is far better.

I think they got that bit spot on. The Enterprise E was bound to be a little more agile than the TOS Enterprise being nearly a century newer. Besides I don't think the ships seemed any more agile than in the JJ films, and when the E's shields finally failed, the shots started blowing holes in the ship. The E-E was supposed to be the hardest ship in the fleet, so It seemed about right to me that it took a lot of shots before succumbing to the Scimitar, which, let's face it was a ridiculous vessel.

Well I could have a bit of personal bias. I'm a naval and WWII buff and I love reading about the sea battles where big gunned battleships and cruisers just stood off and pounded the hell out of each other until one side suffered enough losses that they retreated. There wasn't any real grace or strategy it was just basically open fire and keep shooting until either we or they sink.

The Enterprise/Reliant duel was like that in space. Two big, heavily armed ships that just kept firing at each other until the Enterprise finally got in the killing blows. It was just basically brute force on force.

I don't dislike the Scimitar/Ent-E fight...it's just a little too fancy for my tastes.

It's the same how about I feel about lightsaber duels in Star Wars. In the OT, especially in Empire and Jedi it was just basically Vader and Luke trying to pound the hell out of each other, like two guys fighting with real swords would do. There wasn't a lot of grace and fanciness to it and when Luke snapped in Jedi he didn't beat Vader with some cool elaborate move he basically whaled on Vader's ass until he submitted.

In the prequels they did all the spins and quicker moves and shit, and I know some people LOVE that, but to me it just looks like a highly choreographed fight that was practiced hundreds of times in rehersal instead of two guys really throwing down.

Although I do like the battle in Nemesis somewhat. I CANNOT STAND the duels in the SW prequels.

Not to derail this thread, but the original trilogy saber duels were like European broadsword fights, while the prequel trilogy saber duels were more like Chinese martial arts with some renaissance-era fencing thrown in. I think it makes Force-attuned Jedi look truly superhuman, and this is actually one of the very few aspects of the prequels that I prefer over the original trilogy.

Plus, there were no Jedi depicted in their fighting prime in the original trilogy. There was a has-been who probably hadn't used his saber in decades, a crippled man who had to breathe by machine and had artificial limbs, and a noobie who had just barely learned saber combat as an adult instead of being trained in the Jedi arts from childhood.

On topic, it could be argued that ships in space with advanced engines and thrusters shouldn't be slow and lumbering, but should be more agile than boats having to deal with the mass and resistance of water around them.

Kor

 

[Grant]

It's my favorite TNG movies, The only part I dont like is the dune buggy chase. Too bad they cut out so many good scenes.

 

[Smellmet]

It's my favorite TNG movies, The only part I dont like is the dune buggy chase. Too bad they cut out so many good scenes.

It would have made more sense to have the buggy as some kind of futuristic land speeder if they had to go down there at all (and they didn't). The overexposed scene reminded be of the end of TFF too, and not in a good way. Still I like Worf's dry delivery of 'very astute'

 

[SPCTRE]

NEM has one of my favorite space battles of all the movies.

 

[Smellmet]

I love that shot of the Enterprise firing wildly. If only Riker had done that in Generations...

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I love that shot of the Enterprise firing wildly. If only Riker had done that in Generations...

Hey leave the guy alone. He returned fire with one phaser shot, the BOP shields held and he realized it was pointless to continue firing and decided to run away

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I think they got that bit spot on. The Enterprise E was bound to be a little more agile than the TOS Enterprise being nearly a century newer. Besides I don't think the ships seemed any more agile than in the JJ films, and when the E's shields finally failed, the shots started blowing holes in the ship. The E-E was supposed to be the hardest ship in the fleet, so It seemed about right to me that it took a lot of shots before succumbing to the Scimitar, which, let's face it was a ridiculous vessel.

Well I could have a bit of personal bias. I'm a naval and WWII buff and I love reading about the sea battles where big gunned battleships and cruisers just stood off and pounded the hell out of each other until one side suffered enough losses that they retreated. There wasn't any real grace or strategy it was just basically open fire and keep shooting until either we or they sink.

The Enterprise/Reliant duel was like that in space. Two big, heavily armed ships that just kept firing at each other until the Enterprise finally got in the killing blows. It was just basically brute force on force.

I don't dislike the Scimitar/Ent-E fight...it's just a little too fancy for my tastes.

It's the same how about I feel about lightsaber duels in Star Wars. In the OT, especially in Empire and Jedi it was just basically Vader and Luke trying to pound the hell out of each other, like two guys fighting with real swords would do. There wasn't a lot of grace and fanciness to it and when Luke snapped in Jedi he didn't beat Vader with some cool elaborate move he basically whaled on Vader's ass until he submitted.

In the prequels they did all the spins and quicker moves and shit, and I know some people LOVE that, but to me it just looks like a highly choreographed fight that was practiced hundreds of times in rehersal instead of two guys really throwing down.

Although I do like the battle in Nemesis somewhat. I CANNOT STAND the duels in the SW prequels.

Not to derail this thread, but the original trilogy saber duels were like European broadsword fights, while the prequel trilogy saber duels were more like Chinese martial arts with some renaissance-era fencing thrown in. I think it makes Force-attuned Jedi look truly superhuman, and this is actually one of the very few aspects of the prequels that I prefer over the original trilogy.

Plus, there were no Jedi depicted in their fighting prime in the original trilogy. There was a has-been who probably hadn't used his saber in decades, a crippled man who had to breathe by machine and had artificial limbs, and a noobie who had just barely learned saber combat as an adult instead of being trained in the Jedi arts from childhood.

On topic, it could be argued that ships in space with advanced engines and thrusters shouldn't be slow and lumbering, but should be more agile than boats having to deal with the mass and resistance of water around them.

Kor

Well not to continue the derailing, but I've heard that perspective expressed before and I guess I can see the argument for it even though I personally strongly disagree.

Besides the fanciness though it was how it was total overkill. I know it was the prime of the Jedis so you'd expect to see them more often than in the OT, but it seemed they couldn't go more than 10 minutes without showing the damn lightsaber in some way. In the OT they were used pretty sparingly leading up to the big fight at the end, so when they lit them up you knew they meant business and it was special when you did get to the big fight.

It'd be like if Spock used the nerve pinch 4 or 5 times every film......a lot of people would just go "Ho...hum, Spock used the pinch again." The fact he only used it rarely when he needed to made it really cool when he did use it.

Same thing with the 007 films. You know at a point in the film he's going to do the "Bond......James Bond" line and he does it once maybe twice in the film usually in a dramatic way. If he introduced himself to everyone he met in the film that way it'd get old really quick.

I just believe the saying "Less is more" should have been used when thinking about the use of something like the lightsaber in the prequels..........Of course it was only one of many many many many problems that made those films pure unadulterated crap.

 

[xvicente]

As dumb and badly-written as I think Generations was, I never had a problem with that battle.

How could Riker (or any commander) choose to stay in the enemy's range with shields down?

 

[inflatabledalek]

Does Riker try to run away in Generations? He mainly just shouts "Plasma coils!" back and forth with Worf and Data whilst his ship gets pummeled. Considering the Enterprise should be easily able to outpace the BoP if he was trying to flee he failed at that as well.

As for Nem, I like Hardy. I think he's doing a bang up job with some very uneven material where his supposed genius results in him constantly acting in a way that works against his best interests.

And to be honest, I don't think the script is any worse than First Contact. That's a film rammed full of illogic but Frakes grabbing you by the balls direction is exactly what a dumb but fun silly action film needs (it's a shame- as made clear by the commentary- he thought the script for Insurrection was crap and thus doesn't bring the same enthusiasm there as that film needed it). With just about anyone more competent at the helm we could be in a situation where we'd be gently poking fun at the silliness of Nemesis but still enjoying it.

I mean, don't get me wrong, a great script well made would be the ideal, but there are ways of polishing a turd when it comes to blockbuster cinema.