Some Jews have those characteristics. As do some Christians and some Atheists. It is an outdated stereotype which really has no place on this board or amongst the IDIC fanbase. As I said, I doubt that the artists that created the Ferengi had Jews in mind when they came up with this new race. In fact, in dialogue, Data compares them to "Yankee traders", not Jews.
Redesign the Ferengi
- Thread starter Cromwell
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Some Jews have those characteristics. As do some Christians and some Atheists. It is an outdated stereotype which really has no place on this board or amongst the IDIC fanbase. As I said, I doubt that the artists that created the Ferengi had Jews in mind when they came up with this new race. In fact, in dialogue, Data compares them to "Yankee traders", not Jews.
Actually Shylock from the Merchant of Venice, who was a character that fits the negative stereotype of the ruthless Jewish money lender is listed as one of the inspirations for the Ferengi here: http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/creating-the-ferengi/
I'm loving this idea, maybe dress them like the cover of Glamour and GQ magazine, act like members of the royal family, very urban and correct. But make them total convinced of their position and the inferiority of others. Sort of like the Vulcans, times ten.
I've thought for some time it would be interesting to have "the villains" not be a species or a empire, but instead a multi-species corporate entity.
But that would make them the good guys.
Even if you personally fall on the republican side of things, the 'Ends justify the means' of using your money to make your vote count more than everyone else's is pretty directly anti-democratic and villainous. And that's certainly not conservative-specific behavior. There's just as horrible corruption in the democratic party as the republican party.
You could have the Ferengi trying to gain influence in neutral territories through monopolizing resources, selling technology to less developed worlds but then basically taking all their resources and ditching them in the process. Or handing them 5000 page contracts with 'And by the way we own your world now' hidden in the small text.
That's an interesting article - thanks for the link.
Along with Shylock, Scrooge McDuck & Gordon Gecko are listed as inspirations. So I still doubt that the creators were aiming to stereotype all Jewish people.
"Thus the Ferengi continued Star Trek‘s tradition of creating alien races who reflect real groups of people on Earth but whereas the Klingons had stood in for the Russians, the Ferengi would stand in for the forces of unrestrained capitalism."
Yeah it is a quite interesting article, personally I think some of those early Ferengi concepts look more like the TOS Klingons than the TNG Klingons do.
And I agree that they weren't aiming to make the Ferengi "space jews" it was likely just that through Shylock some aspects of those old stereotypes (which until fairly recently were so ingrained into Western Society) sneaked their way in.
Often things can be conceived completely innocently and somebody reinterprets them as offensive.
I still think that "unrestrained capitalism" is not a great concept for a SciFi villain. Villainous CEOs are something you'd rather expect from Captain Planet and there is the fact that you can't have shootouts with business men the same way you could with the Klingons/Soviets Cardassians/Nazis or the mob.
You battle CEOs in the courtroom, not in orbit, which could have worked but not for a Klingon ersatz as the Ferengi where meant to be, I think.
I do agree however that they could have worked as a sort of Dominion-like overlord with client races. The Vorta are a good example at how the Ferengi could have worked.
Make them a bigger threat? Easy, don't have them fight their own battles. Have them employ Alien Mercenaries from various species as their muscle while they remain perfectly innocent and respectable background manipulators.
Keep them as smaller, un-intimidating people who can wear strength enhancing armored suits if need be but like to keep their hands clean. It makes them seem more innocent when accused of stuff.
Keep them as smaller, un-intimidating people who can wear strength enhancing armored suits if need be but like to keep their hands clean. It makes them seem more innocent when accused of stuff.
Unforetunately, the early Ferengi came across as "Jews in Space", which offended some people. I'm glad that Trek backed away from this. Indeed, mainstream Ferengi as pack rats worked well in DS9. (The early TNG Ferengi could be explained away as fringe elements?)
The Mafia in space is an interesting idea; perhaps the Orion Syndicate could have played that role?
Other races-Klingons, Romulans-already had the role of a military threat.
Which is why people often call them offensive stereotypes, no one is saying they're accurate depictions of Jewish people. But groveling, troll-like creatures with exagerated facial features who lust after wealth and riches (and even have atypical headwear (yarmulke for Jews, the half-wrap for the Ferengi) it's hard to ignore how much the fit the offensive stereotype for Jewish people.
For as much as we want yo laud Trekfor progressive thinking and characters there's still some uncomfortable stuff here and there. As much as we praise them adding Chekov during tense times with Russia his muddy accent and him always mis-attributing things to Russia was sort of a dig on them. Plenty of examples of very, very poor characterizations of the Irish and let's not even start on Native Americans.
These stereotypes, sadly, exist and Trek did use them from time to time. So it's hard to not see the use of the Ferengi in TNG as not being -whether intentionally or unintentionally- offensive Jewish stereotypes.
^ Really rocking that adult diaper.
"Jews in space?"
The early Ferengi had large, well armed "Maurader" ships, not really a part of the traditional Jewish stereotype, they had just engaged in a blatant act of theft. The next time we see a Ferengi he's bent on vendetta against Picard.
"Jews in space?"
Or opposing competing criminal organizations.
The idea, as I understand it, was to move away from both of those species.
So you could (hypothetically of course) just as easily have used someone like George Soros to make your point?
I thought this was about the look of the Ferengi, rather than what they were about. I don't have any suggestions for how else they might've been, except that I would NOT have proposed them as a threat. They didn't work, they weren't going to work and that's been born out through the course of the franchise. As far as changing their look, I hate their ears so badly. Large ears isn't a bad idea in itself, but the way they went about it really sucked and for as big as they ended up being, they should've had motors in them ... at the very least. Oo-max on ears that don't do anything at all just isn't that funny, I'm sorry ...
I didn't like the early Ferengi episodes with the electric whips, excessively fidgety movements, open mouth hisses, and saying things like "Picard Captain".
However, they've grown on me as they have "evolved" and I'm really enjoying the Ferengi on DS9 (I'm watching Season 3 at the moment).
Quark is one of my favorite DS9 characters so far.
However, they've grown on me as they have "evolved" and I'm really enjoying the Ferengi on DS9 (I'm watching Season 3 at the moment).
Quark is one of my favorite DS9 characters so far.
Interesting, as Armin Shimerman was one of those first Ferengi.
Certainly Daimon Bok is more cruel, ruthless and/or insane than any other Ferengi we've seen.
Could be a case of the explorer sorts being a warrior caste who are far, far out of favor with the Alliance?
With the point of the Ferengi being to exaggerate an aspect of humanity (one that most viewers and people behind the scenes think is problematic if taken too far but not too bad in itself), it makes a lot more sense for them to be much more comic relief than villains.
I do think that their general ineptness made the exceptions like Bok pretty interesting.
That could have been an interestingly different kind of villain but it would strain credibility that they wouldn't quickly develop a bad/self-damaging reputation.
I do think that their general ineptness made the exceptions like Bok pretty interesting.
That could have been an interestingly different kind of villain but it would strain credibility that they wouldn't quickly develop a bad/self-damaging reputation.
Giant metal codpiece, actually, as Roddenberry apparently wanted the Ferengi males to be hung like horses. Oh, Gene...
...so, make them lawyers, and follow the format of any one of the 12893723 lawyer shows on television?
Doesnt work. Real lawyers are far better villains than anything science fiction could come up with.
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