Sci, it never really caused any tension....half the time my pals sorta knew the subject matter anyway, and the other half, they were RELIEVED they didn't have sit through yet ANOTHER meeting.
Interesting -- thanks! Would it be an unreasonable inference to take from your statement that sometimes the U.S. was classifying information as not for foreign partners unnecessarily?
I still wonder are Federation members similar to the 50 US States....if so then just whoever has the rank and/or clearance is allowed to "unfettered" access to the info.
If the Federation more like the United Nations, then I say the info is and NEEDS to be more compartmentalized.
Whether the Federation is a federal sovereign state or is a sort of intergovernmental organization is a perennial debate in Trek fandom, because it has been depicted as having the traits of both sovereign states and IGOs. I've
written about this before, but suffice it to say that I think the preponderance of evidence is in favor of the idea of the Federation as a sovereign state, and that this is the approach the novels have taken.
When Andor left the Federation, all the Andorian bubbas in Starfleet could leave and use the info for the Typhon Pact, or whatever truce they wanted to be in.
Technically, that's true of
anybody in Starfleet, though -- anyone in the fleet could choose to resign their commission and then divulge classified information to hostile powers if they got the chance or chose to defect.
And it's important to remember that even after it seceded, the Andorian Empire never joined the Typhon Pact. The Pact was certainly trying to get Andor to join, but there's no evidence this was even on the Andorian government's mind. They still seemed extremely wary of the Pact, I'd say.
While I am typing here....I wonder on DS9 (during the TV Show era), did Kira have limited access to the Federation database....I assume so.....and I think she SHOULD have only LIMITED access....she's not a Federation member
It's an interesting question. Something to consider is that legally, the space station itself was Bajoran territory, but the Bajoran government was allowing the Federation Starfleet to administer it as a Starfleet starbase. So there seems to be a distinction between the station as a physical object, and the administrative unit known as Starbase Deep Space 9.
(More nomenclature, for reference: the Bajoran polity is established as the Third Republic of Bajor in the novel
Section 31: Disavowed; the Republic's military arm is known in the series and the novels as the Bajoran Militia.)
My conjecture would be that, as the station itself was Bajoran territory, most probably the Federation had to negotiate a treaty with the Third Republic of Bajor on what kinds of Starfleet databases they could install on the station and what kinds of information they would be allowed to store, and what kinds of information they would have to share. I figure, either both sides agreed to let the other install their own computer networks with their own classified info that the other couldn't see; or, the UFP and Republic of Bajor agreed on a single computer network containing a database to which both Federation Starfleet and Bajoran Militia officers would have equal access to (subject, of course, to different individuals' own security clearances).
Now... the
Defiant, on the other hand, is a whole different story. (Sisko was C.O. of both of them, but they didn't even share first officers; Lt. Commander Worf was the second-in-command aboard the
Defiant, not Colonel Kira.) Any computer networks aboard the
Defiant would be wholly Federation property, and therefore not subject to Bajoran law. I figure the Federation probably would have had to have negotiated a treaty with the Republic of Bajor governing what kinds of information from the
Defiant's database any Bajoran Militia officers seconded to the
Defiant would have access to.
and her ultimate boss is the Kai (or whoever the Head of State is for Bajor) -- may not be the Kai -- but I'm too lazy to Wiki the Chain of Command for Bajor, but I digress.
Interesting side-note: I did sometimes wonder if the Kai of the Bajoran Church was
ex officio also the head of state for the Third Republic of Bajor (with the First Minister as head of government), the same way the Queen of the United Kingdom is both head of the British state and Supreme Governor of the Church of England (with the Prime Minister as head of government). This was prompted by Kai Winn taking over as First Minister when the first post-Occupation First Minister died in office, before Shakaar was elected. But
Bajor: Fragments and Omens contains narration establishing the First Minister as the head of state -- so I can only conclude that the First Minister of the Third Republic of Bajor is both head of state and head of government, and is therefore the commander-in-chief of the Bajoran Militia.
Though I was slightly mistaken, in that non-citizens cannot hold actually commissions or become warrant officers, which probably makes the question of access to information moot anyway, since I imagine such people wouldn't have access to much even were they full citizens. And they can't apply for security clearances anyway. So there's implicit compartmentalization in that respect, I'd guess. But that already shows a distinction between Starfleet and the US Military as it stands, I'd guess, as Nog would almost have to have some sort of security clearance to become a commissioned officer.
Indeed, my thought process is that the Federation would not give him a commission in the first place if they intended to restrict his access to information compared to Federate officers of his rank. I think the Federation took a look at Nog and said, "If you make it through the Academy, we're going to trust you to uphold your oath and serve us, and we'll give you a commission just like any other officer. We're going to trust you."
I don't believe it's ever been firmly and explicitly established either way, either whether Nog does have full and equal access at his current status (though given his position, that would seem to follow) or whether he has always had full and equal access at every rank he's had from the Academy onwards. It's certainly within the bounds of believability that Ensign Nog did not have the same level of access or the same security clearances as a Federation citizen in Starfleet would have had at an equivalent point in their career.
I mean, it would be within the bounds of believability... if he were an NCO. But why would the Federation give him a commission in the first place if they weren't going to trust him?
Of course just to stir things up, Nog's father is the Ferengi head of state. I'm sure there are some admirals in starfleet who will be particularly uncomfortable with that idea.
Probably! But that didn't happen until he had already received his commission. And upon earning it, I think the Federation would be unwilling to discriminate against him without probable cause. He might have a bit more scrutiny than other officers, but as long as he proves he's trustworthy, it's not necessarily an issue.
Also, something else to consider:
When he entered Starfleet Academy, Nog was a legal resident of the Third Republic of Bajor by virtue of his living aboard the station. It is therefore possible that he may have been a dual Ferengi/Bajoran citizen -- which would mean that when Bajor joined the Federation, Nog might have gained Federation citizenship anyway. So Nog may well be a dual Ferengi/Federation citizen. (This is pure speculation, of course.)
Nog graduated academy though, although that itself proves nothing about loyalty (look at Eddington, Hudson, Chakotay, Ro).
All of whom save Ro were, of course, Federation citizens. So citizenship is not a guarantee of loyalty, either.
I suspect the reason for seperated briefings that Nathan had was related to various intelligence sources, and how the information was classified. There's no evidence that there is a Federation intelligence agency outside of Starfleet intelligence (setting aside Section 31), so this would never crop up.
Actually,
Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game establishes that the Federation Security Agency is Starfleet Intelligence's civilian intelligence agency counterpart. The later novels
Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn,
Cold Equations: Silent Weapons, and
The Fall: Peaceable Kingdoms also establish that the Federation Security Agency performs counter-intelligence and domestic law enforcement duties, and that a special division of the FSA called the Protection Detail serves the personal protection service for the Federation President. So the FSA is a sort of combination of the FBI, the CIA, and the U.S. Secret Service--or, to make an international comparison, it's a sort of MI-5/MI-6/Special Branch combo, or a Shin Bet/Mossad combo.
When Andor left, how were andorian crewmembers treated? I recall some suspicion in DS9, but I think if they wanted they were allowed to carry on working in Starfleet, presumably with their old security clearances.
As I recall, Andorians who elected to remain in Starfleet were transferred to less sensitive posts. This was made explicit in
Fallen Gods. I don't think any of the novels mentioned security clearances, though.
Bear in mind that
Fallen Gods had a scene where it was heavily implied that some sort of dark, conspiratorial shenanigans were going on at Starfleet Headquarters to force Fleet Admiral Akaar to issue those kinds of orders, and that Akaar didn't actually want to do so. It was presumably foreshadowing a plot point to follow in a presumed sequel to
Fallen Gods (which apparently never materialized).
Of course just to stir things up, Nog's father is the Ferengi head of state. I'm sure there are some admirals in starfleet who will be particularly uncomfortable with that idea.
I don't think so...I always thought that Rom was fairly popular. If the Nagus was
Quark, then there'd be problems, but who (apart from other Ferengi) doesn't like Rom?
I mean, somebody is going to look at the son of a foreign head of state and wonder if he can be trusted not to divulge classified info to his father. It's just natural. If David Cameron's son were a commissioned officer in the U.S. Navy serving as chief engineer aboard a
Nimitz-class aircraft carrier or a
Los Angeles-class submarine, somebody would be wondering the same thing about him, and God knows the U.S. and U.K. are about as close as allies get.
Side-note: There were an
awful lot of future heads of government aboard Deep Space 9 those last few years of the Dominion War, weren't there? Rom goes on to become Grand Nagus of the Ferengi Alliance, Martok goes on to become Chancellor of the Klingon Empire, Garak goes on to become Castellan of the Cardassian Union, Odo goes on to become High Potentate Without A Title of His Own for the Dominion.... all we're missing is Kira becoming First Minister of the Third Republic of Bajor and O'Brien the Prime Minister of United Earth!
And how about this: Worf doesn't have restricted access, does he? Even though the Klingons aren't members of the Federation?
Well, the difference there is that Worf is a Federation citizen, since he was adopted by Federation citizens. Presumably, Worf is a Federate, and gets to vote for Federation President, and, since his family are from Minsk, he gets to vote for Members of the Parliament of United Earth and for Federation Councillor for United Earth, etc.
Nog, on the other hand, is generally assumed not to be a Federation citizen -- although I did speculate that he may have held Bajoran citizenship due to his residency aboard Deep Space 9. As such, he may have gained Federation citizenship upon Bajor joining the UFP. If so, he would presumably therefore get to vote for Federation President and Bajoran First Minister, and for members of the Bajoran Chamber of Ministers, etc.
Does anyone know who sponsored Ro's entrance to the academy?
I don't think it's been officially established, but I've speculated that it was Admiral Akaar (passing on the favour after Hikaru Sulu did the same for him), thus explaining Akaar's very personal dislike and disappointment in Ro after the events of Garon II.
Ooooo. I
like that idea! New headcanon!
For that matter, Akaar is from a non-Federation world too - Capella IV. And he's about as high as it's possible to get in the Admiralty now. I find it unlikely that there would be anyone willing to restrict his security clearance based purely on his world of origin.
No, the issue would be citizenship, not world of origin. Since he and his family fled to the Federation while he was a child and sought asylum, I'm sure that Akaar was granted Federation citizenship at the time.
I do wonder what UFP planet he'd officially be citizen of, though. He has an apartment he shares with his wife on Earth (
The Fall: Revelation and Dust), but that might be lodging provided by Starfleet because of his position as the head of Starfleet Command rather than his legal permanent residence. I for one would be faintly amused if Akaar were legally a citizen of a different Federation world -- Vega Colony, for instance, or the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies.
Nog doesn't feel like a federation citizen though. Nor was Ro before Unity. Was Icheb's citizen status sorted out? Another asylum case surely "my parents tried to get me assimilated. Twice."
I would hope that the Federation would have granted Icheb Federation citizenship.
Seven was presumably a federation citizen as she was originally human (and if that was stripped when she was borged, would the same apply to Picard?).
I see no reason why she would have lost her citizenship. She was a Federation citizen who was abducted as a child and had her mind and body violated; by what logic would the Federation rescind it? She was a victim by Federation law.
Note I'm only referring to the citizenship, not the species. Simon Tarses is a Federation citizen, despite his Romulan background (although that apparently may have caused issues with enlisting, otherwise he wouldn't have lied?).
That's an interesting point. Does anyone remember -- from "The Drumhead," was the issue that Romulans or part-Romulans are not allowed to serve in Starfleet, or was the issue simply that by lying about it, he was committing a crime?
Worf we know is a federation citizen (as is Alexander - although Alexander served in the KDF, perhaps he has joint citizenship?), and so is B'Elanna (from her father's side).
I would presume that all three have joint UFP/Klingon citizenship, yeah. (Or whatever the Klingon equivalent of the concept of citizenship might be. "Loyal Subject of His Imperial Majesty Kahless the Unforgettable, Under the Protection of His Servant the Honorable Chancellor of the High Council of the Klingon Empire, He Who Holds the Throne for Him Who Shall Return?")
Maybe it's more a matter of the diplomatic status of the nation with the Federation? The Ferengi Alliance is on relatively good terms with the Federation (even more so since Rom took power), so Nog's fine. The RSE is by far not, so Tarses had to keep quiet. Andor was a huge worry to the president pro tem, so Andorian officers got classified the way Tarses might've ended up.
Well, bear in mind that Andor seceded in 2382, while Nan Bacco was still UFP President.
Fallen Gods took place shortly thereafter, again still during Bacco's term in office. President Pro Tempore "Ishan" didn't take office until 2385, almost three years after
Fallen Gods took place and after the Andorian Empire had seceded. So the treatment of Andorian Starfleet officers in
Fallen Gods had nothing to do with him. (In fact,
The Fall: Revelation and Dust established that he hadn't even become Federation Councillor for Bajor until 2384.)
"Advanced prototype warship, on the Cardassian border, with a notorious Bajoran terrorist encouraged to take command! How are we supposed to take this?"
