War Crimes Charges for Gul Madred

[sonak]

So at the conclusion of "Chain of Command, Part II" Picard is returned to the Enterprise and Jellico wins the confrontation with the Cardassians thanks to Riker's piloting and mining work.

However, when first captured, Picard points out that torture is a violation of various treaties and expressly against the law. Gul Madred's actions are clearly those of a war criminal, and efforts should have been made to capture and try him, or to have him turned over voluntarily. Even allowing that TNG didn't often do stories with follow-ups, words to the effect of "Gul Madred is sought for war crimes charges" in the captain's log or in his discussion with Troi could have been brought up.

Instead, it seems like this is yet ANOTHER instance in TNG of the Federation allowing the actions of a hostile power to go without a response. Madred tortured a senior officer in Starfleet, one who commanded the "flagship." If I'm Picard, I expect my superiors to go after him. (I know Madred gets a follow-up in a book, I'm just asking about an onscreen indication that his actions had some kind of legal consequence).

 

[hux]

There are five Starfleet organisations looking to bring him to justice

Sorry

There are "four" Starfleet organisations looking to bring him to justice

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Madred could only be tried for war crimes if he could be taken into custody. And good luck with that.

 

[BillJ]

Are they war crimes if no state of war exists?

 

[Shawnster]

Are they war crimes if no state of war exists?

ISIS is being accused of war crimes, but no state of war exists.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

For Gul Madred to be tried of war crimes, the Federation would have to capture him, and you better bet the Cardassian government would kill him if the Federation managed to get anywhere near him.

Also remember the Federation was unwilling to admit they ordered him to go to that moon, and without that admission, the Cardassians can legally claim they were just punishing an individual acting on his own.

 

[arch101]

An interesting short story could be made of Picard's attempt to locate Madred and bring him to trial in the wake of the war.

 

[BillJ]

An interesting short story could be made of Picard's attempt to locate Madred and bring him to trial in the wake of the war.

Would Picard also turn himself over for invading a foreign nation?

 

[-Brett-]

The Federation overlooking Madred's crime was probably just the price to be paid for the Cardassians overlooking Picards.

 

[Timo]

It sounds as if Gul Madred made all the necessary moves in the legal dance that the two space empires had agreed to dance.

Picard appeals to the UFP-Cardassian peace treaty - and Madred responds by saying that yes, he's following that treaty to the letter, inviting in a neutral witness and all. Picard then appeals to the Seldonis IV treaty that bans torture of POWs, as does Riker, but the Cardassians state that this only applies to POWs, and Picard isn't one of those. None of our heroes appeals to any legal document thereafter. So we're left with two options:

a) The heroes decided that the Cardassians were playing it dirty, and treaties would not help.
b) The heroes ran out of treaties to appeal to.

The latter sounds more likely, considering that the other option besides treaties was to bully the Cardassians at the risk of war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbotron]

For Picard, the day Madred tortured him was the most important day of his life. But for Madred, it was Tuesday.

 

[sonak]

The Federation overlooking Madred's crime was probably just the price to be paid for the Cardassians overlooking Picards.

Covert infiltration operations are nothing like deliberate torture on the scale of crimes. Indeed, while the first is a justifiable act of defense on the part of the Federation, the latter is not an act of "defense" by any stretch.

I think that the Federation's tendency to "turn the other cheek" in episodes like this and in "the wounded" when they discovered the Cardassians were violating the treaty, may have contributed to the Cardassians viewing the UFP as weak, leading them to side with the Dominion.

 

[BillJ]

The Federation overlooking Madred's crime was probably just the price to be paid for the Cardassians overlooking Picards.

Covert infiltration operations are nothing like deliberate torture on the scale of crimes. Indeed, while the first is a justifiable act of defense on the part of the Federation, the latter is not an act of "defense" by any stretch.

Justifiable depends on what side of the fence you're sitting on. I'm sure from a Cardassian point-of-view, torture is perfectly justifiable.

One of the huge problems with TNG, is everything is examined as right or wrong through a human lens.

 

[Ghrakh]

Madred could only be tried for war crimes if he could be taken into custody. And good luck with that.

+1

 

[sonak]

The Federation overlooking Madred's crime was probably just the price to be paid for the Cardassians overlooking Picards.

Covert infiltration operations are nothing like deliberate torture on the scale of crimes. Indeed, while the first is a justifiable act of defense on the part of the Federation, the latter is not an act of "defense" by any stretch.

Justifiable depends on what side of the fence you're sitting on. I'm sure from a Cardassian point-of-view, torture is perfectly justifiable.

One of the huge problems with TNG, is everything is examined as right or wrong through a human lens.

cultural relativism is contradictory. At any rate, early on in the interrogation Madred was no longer trying to get useful security info from Picard, he was just trying to break him to show his power over him. Picard was acting to try to stop a dangerous weapon. Any comparison wouldn't hold up as far as legal justification.

 

[Timo]

Breaking the victim is a necessary part of the process: anything "obtained" early on would be worthless, as the victim would merely tell what the interrogator wants to hear, and the interrogator would merely hear what he wants to hear. It would only be after lots and lots of crushing that the victim would start providing semi-reliable information.

What Madred got with the truth drugs early on was worthless codes (stuff that Starfleet would change as soon as Picard's shuttle cleared the bay doors). What he would get with prolonged torture would be a docile propaganda tool who just might let slip something tactically or strategically useful as well.

Picard was acting to stop a dangerous weapon? Federation lies - there is no such weapon. OTOH, Cardassia stopped a dangerous armed invader, potentially an assassin or saboteur and murderer of thousands if not millions. If this man was operating under Starfleet orders rather than on a mad rogue errand of his own, all the worse (even though treaties would then dictate his release), as now it is the UFP that is potentially attempting the murdering of millions. What other reason would there to be for a break-in into a peaceful laboratory that admittedly deals in things that could be turned into weapons of mass destruction by villains such as Picard? (That is, if Cardassians want to claim that such a lab did exist.)

There's always also the problem of proving that torture did take place. Picard's word would be worthless, and 24th century medicine could hide all traces, save for subtle things that could always be attributed to Federation forgery.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

For Picard, the day Madred tortured him was the most important day of his life. But for Madred, it was Tuesday.

Good post!


I could imagine Picard as an admiral at a function and Ambassador Madred and Picard saying something about meeting before and Madred saying he didn't remember.

 

[sonak]

For Picard, the day Madred tortured him was the most important day of his life. But for Madred, it was Tuesday.

Good post!


I could imagine Picard as an admiral at a function and Ambassador Madred and Picard saying something about meeting before and Madred saying he didn't remember.

There's already a similar moment in a mirror DS9 episode where a member of the resistance says that Intendant Kira killed his wife and she comes back with a carefree quip about it.

Also, in "Duet" the fake Gul Dar'Heel has a line about mass murder being a day's work for him.

 

[Timo]

The somewhat disturbing thing is that Garak did this for a living, too. Was there ever any mention of making him answerable for his past in front of Federation courts? After all, the torture need not have been in violation of the peace treaty (which was in force before Garak was ostracized, so probably he got in a few good torture sessions during that time, too) as it only involved Bajorans, fellow Cardassians and the like, but would still be in violation of the Seldonis IV treaty.

Okay, perhaps Garak did most of it just by staring at his victim, as once mentioned. Or by talking about the finer points of tailoring until the victim broke down in tears. But it's unlikely it was all like that - and we don't know what the Seldonis Accords say about staring...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think in this case it wouldn't just be a normal day for Madred. Failing to break Picard was a tremendous blow to his pride. He was much more emotionally invested in winning that battle than Darheel was in working his slaves.