Why did Decker have to be demoted to commander in TMP?

[enterprisecvn65]

In TMP Kirk has been an Admiral for several years, I forgot his exact position I know he tells Scotty it in the pod scene, and his post has been an earth bound one for the most part.

So V'ger comes along, the not yet finished refit Enterprise is the only ship in range of course (Think about that. This means there were exactly ZERO fully operational starships around or near earth!!! Wow, not exactly a strong defense if the Klingons decided to attack)

Kirk convinces his superior he needs to be captain of the Enterprise, despite the ship's new design, because of his experience in these situations vs. Decker's lack of it. So when he tells Decker he's assuming command he also informs he being temporarily demoted to commander, with the assumption he'll be re promoted to captain and take over the Enterprise once the V'ger thing is over.

My question is why would Decker need to be demoted? The knee jerk answer is "Well a ship can't have two captains" but that's irrelevant because:

1. Kirk is a higher rank to begin with so by regulations Decker would have to obey his orders. Whether he was a captain or commander in rank made no difference.

2. Captain is an official rank, but it is also the title given to any commanding officer of a ship in the military. In the navy a ships skipper may only be a commander rank wise but he is referred to as captain when commanding the ship.

So it's not the rank but the command that determines a person's authority. Even if Decker remained a captain in rank he was no longer captain of the Enterprise. While Kirk despite being an Admiral could be referred to captain, in reference to his position of commanding the ship.

Even if Kirk had had to take a demotion to captain because starfleet had some regulation about flag officers not commanding individual ships, and Decker remained a captain it wouldn't have made them equal in authority because starfleet had designated Kirk as the commanding officer of the Enterprise. So even they would have both been captains rank wise only Kirk could be called "captain" of the Enterprise and Decker by regulations would have been bound to follow Kirk's orders.

So it made no sense to have to demote Decker to make Kirk's command of the Enterprise seem more official. I think the writers just threw it in there to make Decker even more pissed at Kirk that not only did he take command of the Enterprise away from him, but he lost his official rank as well.

 

[Melakon]

Probably done to keep from confusing the audience, many of which wouldn't have any understanding of military procedure.

And since Starfleet claims not to be a military organization, who knows what their orders of command are.

 

[hux]

Because he kept taking his penis out and showing it to girls?

I think it's just for convenience. Why does Admiral Kirk even need to be captain to take command for that matter. Haven't we seen admirals take command before

Kirk needed to be captain for nostalgia reasons so Decker becomes commander purely to make that happen

 

[Pauln6]

It was silly. I think they thought that Captain Kirk had to be a captain otherwise he's not Captain Kirk. They did the same with NuTrek.

 

[CorporalClegg]

For the same reason they gave Riker a fourth pip in BoBW2. (I have no idea what that reason is, mind.)

 

[Ithekro]

One reason is that Spock tends to refer to Decker by his rank, not his name. Having him called captain while Kirk is also being called Captain would definately confuse the audiance. So Spock calls him "Commander".

When Star Trek II came about, Kirk is called Admiral, but Spock remains being called Spock after Kirk takes command. He is not referred to only as Captain in any scene after Kirk takes command. "Captain Spock" perhaps, but never just "Captain". Kirk I don't believe is called Captain during his command of Enterprise in this film.

 

[Timo]

Why Admiral Kirk becomes Captain is sort of explained by the backstory, even though none of that is explicit in the movie itself. Kirk was not supposed to be flying starships himself any more, perhaps because of a John Glenn factor (TOS made him famous and Starfleet couldn't afford to lose him), perhaps just because this was no time for Chief of SF Ops to take a holiday. So Kirk would have to "buy" the personal command of the ship from Admiral Nogura, the "price" being a demotion.

Nogura would probably expect Kirk to say no to the humiliation, but little does he know our hero... Of course, Kirk then vents it on Decker!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

One reason is that Spock tends to refer to Decker by his rank, not his name. Having him called captain while Kirk is also being called Captain would definately confuse the audiance. So Spock calls him "Commander".

When Star Trek II came about, Kirk is called Admiral, but Spock remains being called Spock after Kirk takes command. He is not referred to only as Captain in any scene after Kirk takes command. "Captain Spock" perhaps, but never just "Captain". Kirk I don't believe is called Captain during his command of Enterprise in this film.

When the Enterprise arrives at Regula I, Kirk is on the bridge, with Preston's blood still on his shirt.

He asks Spock to scan the area with the question "Sensors, Captain?"

That's the only one that comes to mind, though.

 

[Smellmet]

It was done because the plot demanded that there be tension and falling out between the two, and his demotion added to this.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

In TMP Kirk has been an Admiral for several years, I forgot his exact position I know he tells Scotty it in the pod scene, and his post has been an earth bound one for the most part.

He was Chief of Starfleet Operations and had presumably been an admiral for two-and-a-half years.

So V'ger comes along, the not yet finished refit Enterprise is the only ship in range of course (Think about that. This means there were exactly ZERO fully operational starships around or near earth!!! Wow, not exactly a strong defense if the Klingons decided to attack)

Something established the for the sake of the plot.

My question is why would Decker need to be demoted?

1. Kirk is a higher rank to begin with so by regulations Decker would have to obey his orders. Whether he was a captain or commander in rank made no difference.

Kirk's goal was the remain in command of the Enterprise beyond TMP. His being tied to the admiralty would have precluded such a scenario.

2. Captain is an official rank, but it is also the title given to any commanding officer of a ship in the military. In the navy a ships skipper may only be a commander rank wise but he is referred to as captain when commanding the ship.

So it's not the rank but the command that determines a person's authority. Even if Decker remained a captain in rank he was no longer captain of the Enterprise. While Kirk despite being an Admiral could be referred to captain, in reference to his position of commanding the ship.

Star Trek has been woefully inconsistent where naval tradition is concerned, as the Dominion War is the only example in which the title of captain was used irrespective of rank.

I think the writers just threw it in there to make Decker even more pissed at Kirk that not only did he take command of the Enterprise away from him, but he lost his official rank as well.

Except that he didn't lose his rank at all. Kirk himself said the demotion was only temporary. Near the film's conclusion, Kirk recognized Decker's full rank when listing the ship's casualties for Uhura: "Report two casualties, Lieutenant Ilia... Captain Decker."

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

When the Enterprise arrives at Regula I, Kirk is on the bridge, with Preston's blood still on his shirt.

He asks Spock to scan the area with the question "Sensors, Captain?"

That's the only one that comes to mind, though.

He also referred to Spock as captain after entering the Enteprise simulator and while speaking with via communicator before beaming to the Genesis cave: "I read you, Captain. Let's have it (the damage report)."

--Sran

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Because he kept taking his penis out and showing it to girls?

I think it's just for convenience. Why does Admiral Kirk even need to be captain to take command for that matter. Haven't we seen admirals take command before

Kirk needed to be captain for nostalgia reasons so Decker becomes commander purely to make that happen

If that's the case, which it very well could be, then they didn't do a good job of it. Because in both TMP and TWOK he was still pretty much addressed as admiral most of the time.

Like I said it's common to refer to the commanding officer of a navy ship as captain regardless of his official rank. Yet they rarely called kirk captain.

If they wanted the audience to have him be Captain Kirk and not admiral Kirk then it would have made more sense for Nogura to tell him he can command the enterprise but would have to be demoted to captain in rank because regulations don't allow for flag rank officers to command an individual ship. In reality this is true admirals rarely if ever command a single ship.
Kirk would have been cool with it because he wants the enterprise back so much it's a small price to pay

Then they could demote decker in a more believable way and still have decker be doubly pissed at Kirk that he lost his command and rank and could have whipped his penis out in front of of Kirk.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

In TMP Kirk has been an Admiral for several years, I forgot his exact position I know he tells Scotty it in the pod scene, and his post has been an earth bound one for the most part.

He was Chief of Starfleet Operations and had presumably been an admiral for two-and-a-half years.

So V'ger comes along, the not yet finished refit Enterprise is the only ship in range of course (Think about that. This means there were exactly ZERO fully operational starships around or near earth!!! Wow, not exactly a strong defense if the Klingons decided to attack)

Something established the for the sake of the plot.



Kirk's goal was the remain in command of the Enterprise beyond TMP. His being tied to the admiralty would have precluded such a scenario.

2. Captain is an official rank, but it is also the title given to any commanding officer of a ship in the military. In the navy a ships skipper may only be a commander rank wise but he is referred to as captain when commanding the ship.

So it's not the rank but the command that determines a person's authority. Even if Decker remained a captain in rank he was no longer captain of the Enterprise. While Kirk despite being an Admiral could be referred to captain, in reference to his position of commanding the ship.

Star Trek has been woefully inconsistent where naval tradition is concerned, as the Dominion War is the only example in which the title of captain was used irrespective of rank.

I think the writers just threw it in there to make Decker even more pissed at Kirk that not only did he take command of the Enterprise away from him, but he lost his official rank as well.

Except that he didn't lose his rank at all. Kirk himself said the demotion was only temporary. Near the film's conclusion, Kirk recognized Decker's full rank when listing the ship's casualties for Uhura: "Report two casualties, Lieutenant Ilia... Captain Decker."

--Sran

All fair points except how could decker be sure it was only a temporary demotion. He didn't seem to trust Kirk and for all he knew he might have believed Kirk was full of shit with this temporary stuff and he'd find a way to keep him demoted.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Why Admiral Kirk becomes Captain is sort of explained by the backstory, even though none of that is explicit in the movie itself. Kirk was not supposed to be flying starships himself any more, perhaps because of a John Glenn factor (TOS made him famous and Starfleet couldn't afford to lose him), perhaps just because this was no time for Chief of SF Ops to take a holiday. So Kirk would have to "buy" the personal command of the ship from Admiral Nogura, the "price" being a demotion.

Nogura would probably expect Kirk to say no to the humiliation, but little does he know our hero... Of course, Kirk then vents it on Decker!

Timo Saloniemi

But Kirk isn't demoted rank wise. He still remains an admiral and is addressed as such even after he assumes command of the enterprise.

 

[Timo]

Nope - Kirk even changes his rank braid to that of mere Captain, the first chance he gets.

You may be thinking of the next movie, where Kirk is back to Rear Admiral rank and addressed likewise. In the first one, though, he ceases to be Admiral after the scene where the crew watches the demise of the Epsilon Nine station.

Before:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0559.jpg
After:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0627.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

All fair points except how could decker be sure it was only a temporary demotion. He didn't seem to trust Kirk and for all he knew he might have believed Kirk was full of shit with this temporary stuff and he'd find a way to keep him demoted.

By and large, demotions are punitive. What had Decker done to warrant any disciplinary action being taken against him? Although Decker may not have been happy about Kirk swooping in and taking the Enterprise away from him, he had no reason to think his demotion was permanent.

Decker knew that Kirk wanted the Enterprise back. He just didn't anticipate Kirk using the V'Ger threat as his excuse to push him aside.

--Sran

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Nope - Kirk even changes his rank braid to that of mere Captain, the first chance he gets.

You may be thinking of the next movie, where Kirk is back to Rear Admiral rank and addressed likewise. In the first one, though, he ceases to be Admiral after the scene where the crew watches the demise of the Epsilon Nine station.

Before:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0559.jpg
After:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0627.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

I could be mistaken as I haven't watched TMP in a while. I just seem to remember him being addressed as Admiral throughout the film.....but it appears I'm wrong.

You're right I do remember him staying as Admiral throughout TWOK.

 

[Timo]

It's actually quite cute: as long as Kirk stays in that Rear Admiral uniform, Scotty and Decker and minor characters keep addressing him as Admiral. But Sulu and Uhura, when seeing him step onto the bridge in that uniform, both go "Captain!"...

Uhura says she just heard the transfer-of-command orders from Starfleet. Apparently, those orders included the tidbit that Kirk was to be addressed either by his position or his new, lower rank, and not by his apparent high rank from that point on. But of course Decker hasn't heard those orders and keeps calling Kirk "Admiral" in the next scene. And Kirk apparently didn't tell Scotty the full story, either, because the engineer kept saying "Admiral" in the previous scenes despite already knowing Kirk was now the CO.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JTShanks]

In TMP Kirk has been an Admiral for several years, I forgot his exact position I know he tells Scotty it in the pod scene, and his post has been an earth bound one for the most part.

So V'ger comes along, the not yet finished refit Enterprise is the only ship in range of course (Think about that. This means there were exactly ZERO fully operational starships around or near earth!!! Wow, not exactly a strong defense if the Klingons decided to attack)

Kirk convinces his superior he needs to be captain of the Enterprise, despite the ship's new design, because of his experience in these situations vs. Decker's lack of it. So when he tells Decker he's assuming command he also informs he being temporarily demoted to commander, with the assumption he'll be re promoted to captain and take over the Enterprise once the V'ger thing is over.

My question is why would Decker need to be demoted? The knee jerk answer is "Well a ship can't have two captains" but that's irrelevant because:

1. Kirk is a higher rank to begin with so by regulations Decker would have to obey his orders. Whether he was a captain or commander in rank made no difference.

2. Captain is an official rank, but it is also the title given to any commanding officer of a ship in the military. In the navy a ships skipper may only be a commander rank wise but he is referred to as captain when commanding the ship.

So it's not the rank but the command that determines a person's authority. Even if Decker remained a captain in rank he was no longer captain of the Enterprise. While Kirk despite being an Admiral could be referred to captain, in reference to his position of commanding the ship.

Even if Kirk had had to take a demotion to captain because starfleet had some regulation about flag officers not commanding individual ships, and Decker remained a captain it wouldn't have made them equal in authority because starfleet had designated Kirk as the commanding officer of the Enterprise. So even they would have both been captains rank wise only Kirk could be called "captain" of the Enterprise and Decker by regulations would have been bound to follow Kirk's orders.

So it made no sense to have to demote Decker to make Kirk's command of the Enterprise seem more official. I think the writers just threw it in there to make Decker even more pissed at Kirk that not only did he take command of the Enterprise away from him, but he lost his official rank as well.

"Two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations-"

There you have it.

And as for WHY Decker had to be demoted.... I have absolutely no idea or the logic behind it. My only guess is that Kirk did not mean a legitimate and real demotion like the time he was demoted to Captain after STIV, but more so a situational systematic demotion similar to when Spock gave command to Kirk in STII. But why even refer to it as a demotion? And why did Kirk's rank on his uniform change? Same with Decker, why did his rank on his uniform HAVE to change? It really confuses me!

 

[J.T.B.]

By and large, demotions are punitive. What had Decker done to warrant any disciplinary action being taken against him?

Yes, it's very questionable that commissioned rank conferred by the highest authority could be revoked without some kind of legal proceeding. But the whole thing has more to do with the movie audience's expectations and perceptions that anything that makes sense in-universe. Kirk could command the mission as an admiral with Captain Decker under him, as seen in TWOK. And if for some reason Kirk had to be reduced to captain, he would still outrank Captain Decker by seniority, so there would still be no reason to reduce Decker to commander.