Auxiliary Control

[Mytran]

Splendid, as I have no desire to de-rail the thread.

All this talk of using the saucer as a lifeboat is the obvious point to link to another thread, which talks in quite some detail about the practical nature of the little lifeboats that feature on the hulls of TNG era starships. Given the choice, I would much rather end up on the saucer than one of those little boxes, FTL drive or no!

 

[Wingsley]

I have very strong mixed feelings on the topic of alternative uses for a Federation starship's saucer-section, or for the utility of escape pods/lifeboats.

If a starship is severely damaged to the point of being crippled/"stopped in space" ( a la Constellation), probably because the ship was confronted by some overwhelming force, it is hard for me to imagine how "the crew was able to get off safely." That's not a dismissal of the concept of lifeboats and/or escape pods; just a realization that if something is able to knock out the mothership, it would likely also knock out some or all of the "escape" options as well.

But this notion of multiple scenarios for starship modular separation intrigues me. We must remember that we are talking about deep space vessels with ingenious engineering and construction techniques far beyond our comprehension. If the "forecastle" section of the upper saucer (per U.S.S. Enterprise Officer's Manual, as I linked upthread) were capable of being jettisoned as a "lifeboat" or other quasi-independent spacecraft, I would not have a problem with that. I would wonder if that module were to suddenly sprout nacelles and start sprinting around deep space at multi-warp speeds, but if the "forecastle" were limited, it could be plausible as an "escape" avenue.

Ditto for the saucer as a TNG-style ship-within-a-ship. Folks can debate over whether impulse expressly means sublight propulsion or not, but when it comes to the idea of regarding the saucer as a "ship" in its own right, I would say they don't call it a "Primary Hull" for nuthin'. (Note I did not refer to the saucer as a starship.)

There should also be nothing wrong with the saucer being able to either jettison her impulse engines or leave them behind with the starship's stardrive section. If Kirk's Enterprise could jettison her nacelles ("The Savage Curtain"), why not allow for a way for the impulse engines to be either jettisoned or selectively separated as well? A saucer without impulse engines is likely to be destined to either stay in orbit or land on a planet; in that case, she would be serving one of at least three roles: (1: large lifeboat, (2: handy orbital space station, or (3: landing craft, like a giant shuttlecraft. Mandel and Drexler already showed how such a craft could take off and land without impulse engines engaged; they suggested an antigravity propulsion system in the underside of the saucer's outer ring.

So, sure, I don't see why TOS-era starships could not have saucer-separation ability / multiple modularity. It makes sense.

 

[T'Girl]

T-Girl, I have that exact same graphic novel! It was an interesting artistic choice and one clearly influenced by the Enterprise-D.

The image suggests to me that there's a option of the impulse deck and pylon either staying with the saucer or the engineering section. So it's the impulse deck and pylon that are one piece, one unit.

The "are Impulse Engines a FTL drive?" is a whole other debate!

A tedious one I'm not really interested in participating in. I wouldn't be in this thread if it were the topic.

I alway side with the impulse engines being a fusion powered "baby warp drive." Capable by themselves to drive the ship up to maybe warp three, getting the ship from the edge of the galaxy to the nearest starbase in "years."

... heading back on impulse power only ... bases which were only days away are now years in the distance

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm out.

 

[Mytran]

T-Girl, I have that exact same graphic novel! It was an interesting artistic choice and one clearly influenced by the Enterprise-D.

The image suggests to me that there's a option of the impulse deck and pylon either staying with the saucer or the engineering section. So it's the impulse deck and pylon that are one piece, one unit.

Possibly, but then we're running into the territory of a multi-piece, individually-ejectable modular starship. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would personally prefer a little more permanent structural stability on my already fragile looking FTL vehicle

 

[T'Girl]

According to The Apple, you can eject the warp nacelles too,

 

[Mytran]

True, but that could be interpreted as a command to separate the saucer, ie

Jettison the nacelles (and the connected engineering hull) and track out of there with the main section only...

It would be odd for Kirk to refer to the saucer AND engineering hull together as the "main section" when together they form the majority of the entire ship! The term main section" would suggest just a part of the ship, AKA the primary hull. As per the comment upthread, it has to be called "primary" for a reason!

 

[JES]

Because a majority of the vital systems is located in the Saucer? Weapons and Impulse, as well as the bridge.

 

[Mytran]

Yep, sounds like the "main section" to me!

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk:"Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there."

Just from what's there, it does sound like what Kirk describes as "the main section" is everything except the warp drive nacelles.

 

[Wingsley]

The modularity of the Enterprise's design, and the use of the term "primary hull" and "secondary hull" as distinctive modules, should make it clear that each of these four modules can be jettisoned relative to the others.

In "The Savage Curtain" there is a direct reference to "jettison nacelles" by Kirk. There is a less clear mention in "That Which Survives" to "pod jettison" being "armed". So obviously nacelles can be disconnected from the starship.

I always took Kirk's reference to the "main section" as being primary hull/saucer; by jettisoning the secondary hull and nacelles, the saucer would be a considerably smaller and lighter escape vehicle. It would also be a harder target for Vaal to focus on while the secondary hull and nacelles are falling to the planet.

 

[Mytran]

Modularity of design makes it easier to assemble. However, putting further measures in place to enable those modules to not only stay firmly together during absurdly stressful FTL manoeuvres but also be safely detachable under quick and automated procedures takes an awful lot of extra engineering work (not to mention the space the additional support structure would occupy). So, there had better be a really important reason for all that!

To see if a 4-part ejection scenario would ever be warranted, let's take the episodes in question:

In The Apple, The warp drive has been rendered inoperative and the Impulse Engines are firing at full throttle just to slow down the rate of descent towards the planet, so strong is Vaal's pull on the vessel!

SCOTT: No change, Captain. The orbit is decaying along computed lines. No success with the warp drive. We're going down and we can't stop it.
KIRK: I'm sick of hearing that word can't. Get that ship out of there.
SCOTT: Sir, we're doing everything within engineering reason.
KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!

As mentioned upthread, the suggestion to dump the (now useless) nacelles is likely to reduce the overall mass of the Enterprise, thus increasing the Impulse Engines' efficiency. There would be a far greater drop in mass if the engineering hull were dropped as well and in such a situation no reason not to do it. However, if the nacelles were permanently joined to the engineering hull then there would be no need to specify this command separately - "discard the nacelles" would be an inclusive order.

In That Which Survives, Scotty crawls into an area of the ship where the matter and antimatter are mixed to provide fuel for the engines. Dialogue points to a central location, rather than one of the nacelles (which are often known as "pods" in TOS).

SPOCK: Lieutenant Uhura, you are monitoring the magnetic force?
UHURA: Oh yes, sir.
SPOCK: Please do not take your eyes off of it. Lieutenant Rahda, arm the pod jettison system.
RAHDA: Aye, sir. I'll jettison the pod at the first sign of trouble.

Now, although Spock makes reference to jettisoning "The Pod" it is highly unlikely that he is referring to one of the nacelles, since Scott is not there. Also, why just eject one of them? More likely is that the reactor where Scott is doing the repairs (Reactor Number Three perhaps, from Day Of The Dove?) is a pod unto itself, albeit one housed in the engineering hull rather than a nacelle. There are several shapes on the bottom of the engineering hull that could correspond to blow-off panels to allow potentially dangerous machinery to be ejected in an emergency.

In Savage Curtain, the problem is not the nacelles but the antimatter itself:

SCOTT: I can't explain it, sir, but the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity.
KIRK [OC]: What caused that?
SCOTT; There's no knowing and there's no stopping it either. The shielding is breaking down. I estimate four hours before it goes completely. Four hours before the ship blows up.
...
KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.

Since we know from TWS that there are reactors not only in the nacelles but (at least) one in the engineering hull as well, it follows that there would be antimatter stores there as well; hence the whole secondary hull & nacelle assembly would be a single candidate for "jettisoning"

 

[T'Girl]

I never took "the pod/pods" to be the nacelles.

 

[Albertese]

I never took "the pod/pods" to be the nacelles.

You may not have, but Matt Jefferies sure did.

--Alex

 

[BK613]

I never took "the pod/pods" to be the nacelles.

You may not have, but Matt Jefferies sure did.

--Alex

And that view continued into his Phase II days (its the aviation model, where power flows from the engines):

 

[TIN_MAN]

A few thoughts;

I know what I’m about to say will be controversial, but isn’t just barely possible that “the pod” in “That Which Survives” is a reference to only one nacelle? In other words, perhaps only one pod/nacelle was sabotaged and therefore only one needed fixing (or jettisoning)?

Before rejecting this out of hand, bear with me for a moment and follow my reasoning. We know in TOS that “pods” are synonymous with “nacelles”, and we have several references that these “pods/nacelles” can be jettisoned in emergencies.

It was also consistently assumed by the writers of the TOS that the “pods/nacelles” contained the matter/anti-matter fuel, hence the many interchangeable references to M/A-M pods, and M/A-M nacelles etc. etc.

We also know it has been established in later trek that starships can operate with only one nacelle, so two possibilities present themselves. Either the Enterprise was only operating on one nacelle in this instance (unlikely) or;

Losira’s sabotage was only to one nacelle, thereby necessitating that the other nacelle had to be ramped up to keep pace to prevent the ship from being destroyed all the more quickly, in other words, it bought some time.

In the event that they did have to jettison “the pod” they knew that they still had the other one, still in good working order, that they could use to get back to the Captain, Doctor and Sulu, albeit at reduced speed.


Now to get back on topic, I agree that there are at least two auxiliary control rooms on board the “E”, one in the saucer and one in the engineering section.

I find it an interesting coincidence that that the “AC” seen in “I Mudd” –the one supposedly on deck eight- has the main semi-circular hallway set visible outside its single pocket door, appropriately suggesting a saucer level location.

Whereas the other more complete “AC” set seen in “The Apple” with its double pocket doors, has the more cramped hallway outside, suggestive perhaps of a secondary hull location, where we might expect such a restricted use of space?

 

[Mytran]

I know what I’m about to say will be controversial, but isn’t just barely possible that “the pod” in “That Which Survives” is a reference to only one nacelle? In other words, perhaps only one pod/nacelle was sabotaged and therefore only one needed fixing (or jettisoning)?

That is a simple and therefore extremely tempting solution!
The sudden presence of single, central reactor in Season 3 of TOS has always been a bit of a pain after two years of dialogue pointing to all the action happening in the engine pods (AKA nacelles). I believe this episode and Elaan of Troyius are the only examples of such a concept prior to TMP.

Hmm, let me think...
EOT's engineering crisis (once Scott quietly disarms the bomb he claimed he couldn't disarm) is thus:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.
...
SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.

At first glance, he might be referring to a M/AM reactor nearby the Engine Room (and the nearby crystal housing would seem to confirm that). However, what if the only M/AM reactors are in the nacelles, and the Dilithium simply converts that power into a form usable by ships systems which includes not only phasers and shields but structural integrity field and inertial dampeners etc? Yes the ship could still technically engage warp drive but the crew would all be stains on the back wall.

This particular setup where the nacelles are the source of all the ship's main power (AKA the aviation model) can be traced to numerous other episodes going back all the way to Mudd's Women and cooberate the notion that the (di)lithium crystals do indeed perform this function.

How does it fair with the events in TWS? This is where most of the "central reactor" dialogue comes from, starting with Watkin's final mission:

SCOTT: Watkins, check the bypass valve on the matter/antimatter reaction chamber. Make sure it's not overheating.
WATKINS: But, Mister Scott, the board shows correct.
SCOTT: I didn't ask you to check the board, lad.
WATKINS: Yes, sir.
(he exits to an adjoining room and checks some controls there)

It might seem that Watkins is checking the reactor itself but all he's doing is looking at some panels. In fact (unlike the extremely dangerous transparent warp core in TNG) all control panels in TOS are remote from the source. Watkins' room therefore is probably just some sort of dedicated warp control suite.

However, then there's further dialogue like this:

SCOTT: I sent him in to check the matter-antimatter reactor.
...
SCOTT: The emergency bypass control of the matter-antimatter integrator is fused.
...
SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.

Lots of references (as with Watkins) to a singular set of equipment. However, if we assume that Scott had already narrowed down the problem with the ship to one of the nacelles (perhaps weakened during the 1,000 LY transport) then the references to a single unit all fall into place. And Scotty suddenly gets a much more dangerous mission in the nacelle itself, what a hero!

You know what Tin_Man, count me in on your controversial theory

EDIT: The "ramping up" of the other nacelle to balance the overloading one is probably an automatic function, designed to balance out any engine inconsistencies that might occur during normal operations. With the override controls damaged, Scott's comment about "the engines running wild" is indeed true, even if only one nacelle is actually malfunctioning.

The "jettison pod" in TWS could refer to just the antimatter bottles, the entire nacelle or maybe just the aft portion of it - there are several portions of the nacelles that could be designed to break off in that way. Lots of food for thought!

 

[TIN_MAN]

Thanks for the support Mytran!

Regarding “EOT”, I think in this case what we might have is a two way sabotage where both the nacelles are rigged to blow up on the one hand, and the dilithium crystal converter is fused on the other.

If the ship is normally propelled by M/A-M reactors in the nacelles, with a third as emergency back-up or booster (as all previous dialog in the series seems to suggest), either in the secondary hull or elsewhere, then it would make sense for any would-be saboteur to try and take them all out.

If it was the reactors in the nacelles were rigged to blow, then using the central backup reactor would be the logical recourse, but the fused converter prevented that as well.

An obvious reason the central one was not also rigged to blow is because it would most likely take the rest of the ship with it, thereby killing the saboteurs and their Dolman as well, whereas the exploding nacelles would be less likely to do so (especially if they were jettisoned, which would serve the saboteurs purpose just as well).

This interpretation neatly explains why Scotty only refers to one reactor –because he’s only talking about the one remaining reactor that they have a snowballs chance in hell of fixing, if only they had the dilithium.

 

[Timo]

Agreed that the sabotage might have been designed to only cripple the ship rather than blow it up - the part where antimatter pods blow could be nonlethal, while the part where dismantling of the bomb blows everything up could be mere deterrent, guaranteed not to happen because both the existence of the bomb and the difficulty in defusing it would be painfully obvious to Scotty once the antimatter pods blew (and apparently even without that hint!).

Did the bomb go off or not? The fusing of the dilithium might be what the bomb achieved by going off, even if attempts at dismantling would have resulted in more carnage than that.

However, Kirk jumps to the conclusion that a "bomb" exists merely because Scotty says the pods have been "rigged". Scotty doesn't correct him. So presumably those are one and the same thing - the rigging is the bomb. So apparently Kryton set up something that would kill everybody after all! If "dismantling" the rigging threatens to kill everybody, then the rigging itself when doing its intended task would rather probably do that as well.

I'd much rather that Kryton only sabotaged something that was physically at the location where he operated - and did that by means of installing a physical, bomb-like device that would spread its explosive effect to the antimatter storage pods somewhere nearby (i.e. underfloor). Kirk would realize this was the likely scenario, and would hit the mark, even if Scotty used different terminology for it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No. The sabotage in "Elaan of Troyius" was designed to be lethal. They said so. The ship was rigged to blow up when the warp drive was activated.

KIRK: Yes, their tactics are quite clear now, Mister Spock. They were trying to make us cut in warp drive. That way we'd have blown ourselves up and solved their problem for them without risking war with the Federation. Very neat.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/57.htm