After I Borg, why does Picard go Ahab in First Contact?

[Makarov]

If Picard used Hugh to destroy the borg then I think Q might not have been too happy. We were supposed to be expanding our minds and stuff.

Picard should have thrown Guinan off the ship in that episode though. "NO! NOOOOOOOO!"

I think it's a case of First Contact being a better written story than I, Borg honestly. They don't really push Picard to his limits or explore the long lasting effects of his assimilation in that episode. It's like they were afraid to break from the typical morality lesson and show the true extent of Picard's rage against the borg.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I'm guessing because between the end of TNG and the films Patrick Stewart finally had some time to watch a lot of the James Bond films, saw how often 007 killed people, got out of impossible situations and got laid a lot and he said to himself "Hey!!!! how come Bond gets to do all that cool stuff and I've been on TV for 7 years now ordering tea and showing how much I love ancient artifacts. Shit I want in on that. I mean I even haven't gotten to do any awesome shit like Indiana Jones does on his archeology quests."

Then he immediately called up Berman and said "Scene with me mowing down Borg with a 1930's gangster style tommy gun, or no deal."

 

[STEPhon IT]

Had the events of I Borg not happened, I could see Picard maybe losing it in another encounter. But they did occur and he couldn't bring himself to commit genocide. Even in Descent he didn't seem to lose his cool. So what pushed him over the edge in First Contact?

Because it was written that way regardless of what was established. The writers wanted to have a Wrath of Khan element along with a Voyage Home TIME TRAVEL theme. What amateur movie producer's do when they cling on about the successes from previous films.

I can see what went on the Berman meeting room.

Berman:
"Everyone loves Wrath of Khan and Voyage Home so let's somehow mash the themes together."

Braga:
"Could we monkey off of James Cameron's Aliens in the film?"

Berman:
"THAT'S A GREAT IDEA, BRANNON, knock yourself out."

Moore:
"Could I bring the Defiant and change whatever was established on DS9, OH and change Zephram Cochrane, and have the crew forget about altering the timeline and just tell him EVERYTHING about the future?"

Berman:
"Ronald, it has NEVER stopped you before from fucking things up with your writing. I mean, didn't I allow YOU to shit on Kirk and kill him disgracefully in GENERATIONS??? I approve!"

 

[Timo]

For each planet destroyed by the Borg?

I don't think NebusJ was speaking about the Borg at all when pointing out the odd double standards of the usage of "genocide"...

they have the capability of not just defeating you, but utterly destroying you

...Which is a fact somehow lost on our heroes. Why do the Borg choose not to win, when they automatically should?

Perhaps Picard thanks to his Locutus days already understands what Janeway and friends only learned the hard way in "Child's Play": that the Borg toy with their victims. He should be able to tell the difference between a feint (the actual military term is probably demonstration) conducted by a single vessel and an actual assimilation run involving dozens of Cubes. He doesn't get unduly worried about things like "I, Borg" or "Descent", and only goes off the deep end when learning in ST:FC that the Borg are doing something far beyond the seeming scope of their "attack" - almost literally raping his childhood!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbotron]

Because it was written that way regardless of what was established. The writers wanted to have a Wrath of Khan element along with a Voyage Home TIME TRAVEL theme. What amateur movie producer's do when they cling on about the successes from previous films.

I can see what went on the Berman meeting room.

Berman:
"Everyone loves Wrath of Khan and Voyage Home so let's somehow mash the themes together."

Braga:
"Could we monkey off of James Cameron's Aliens in the film?"

Berman:
"THAT'S A GREAT IDEA, BRANNON, knock yourself out."

Moore:
"Could I bring the Defiant and change whatever was established on DS9, OH and change Zephram Cochrane, and have the crew forget about altering the timeline and just tell him EVERYTHING about the future?"

Berman:
"Ronald, it has NEVER stopped you before from fucking things up with your writing. I mean, didn't I allow YOU to shit on Kirk and kill him disgracefully in GENERATIONS??? I approve!"

I like your thinking.

First Contact is obviously the best of the four TNG films, but there are numerous story problems (Picard being out of character, redefining the Borg again, and the Borg using time travel in a dumb way). That's two consecutive Trek movies to misuse time travel, IMO. Thanks Moore/Braga.

At least they used the Wrath of Khan plot outline and made something new out of it. Turning Picard into the Khan character was not as derivative and lazy as Nemesis.

 

[Makarov]

I'm curious why people think Picard is only in character when he's being a crusty old diplomat? Is it just because he's an older guy - ageism? He fights throughout the series, threatens people with violence frequently, enjoys violent holodeck novels & fencing, and his entire backstory is about a bar fight.

 

[trekshark]

in I Borg Earth wasn't in danger
in FC Earth was in imminent danger and it wasn't even 24thcentury Earth that might be able to fight back but 21st century that would be easy pickings

 

[MANT!]

it's best explained in the following review..
http://blip.tv/redlettermedia/star-trek-first-contact-review-3604743

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I'm curious why people think Picard is only in character when he's being a crusty old diplomat? Is it just because he's an older guy - ageism? He fights throughout the series, threatens people with violence frequently, enjoys violent holodeck novels & fencing, and his entire backstory is about a bar fight.

The backstory in Tapestry isn't relevant because that was when he was a young man and in most cases as you get older you become less aggressive and willing to throw down at the drop of the hat (Even Toby Keith talks about this in one of his songs).

As for times he was violent on the show it was usually done with a certain level of detachment. He knew it had come to this, he didn't want to do it and he certainly wasn't taking any personal pleasure in it. In FC he was not just being violent for protection's sake but he was also doing it full of spite and malace and was taking immense pleasure in taking personal revenge......that was NEVER a side of Picard we saw on TNG.

As for his persona enjoyment of things that have violent elements to them. I am a big buff of WWII, that doesn't mean I'm pissed I couldn't be alive during that era so I could have mowed down Nazi soldiers as I was storming the beaches on D-day and I have this unfulfilled desire to see carnage on such a mass scale someday.

It is possible to be a fan of things that are violent or contain elements of violence, but not be a violent person yourself.

 

[jimbotron]

I'm curious why people think Picard is only in character when he's being a crusty old diplomat? Is it just because he's an older guy - ageism? He fights throughout the series, threatens people with violence frequently, enjoys violent holodeck novels & fencing, and his entire backstory is about a bar fight.

That bar fight was meant as a contrast to his older self. It's clear he regretted that side of his personality. It took Tapestry for him to realize he needed to be that immature guy to become his older self.

He never flies into an uncontrolled rage in the series. He does it at least twice in First Contact. The first on the Holodeck, and next against those poor Enterprise models. The only anger he showed to that point had been righteous indignation, with some epic speeches. His modus operandi was to negotiate first, and return fire only if all other options are exhausted. He'd occasionally punch a guy now and then, but it was rare. Punching and tackling the terrorist guy on the bridge in The High Ground also felt like it came out of nowhere.

I don't think TV show Picard would ever kill a Borgifying crewman "for his own good", or bludgeon another dead Borg with a tommy gun. But that's how it goes when you shift to movies, and the leading man wants meatier material.

 

[Makarov]

Still, although he became wiser at picking his battles the bar fight shows that he has that bad ass action hero side to himself. On the show he flies into a rage against his own brother, which was somewhat related to the borg incident as well.

Picard takes pleasure in violence on the holodeck, which is the same setting in which he takes pleasure shooting the borg with the tommy gun. Punching the terrorist guy on the bridge was another good example.

All this stuff is totally in character with the Picard of the show. You really have to ignore all these incidents and cast all of them aside as out of character to believe that Picard is just a spineless old geezer diplomat. Picard had never faced the borg at earth so close to home before, it makes sense that his reactions are more dramatic than what we saw in I, Borg.

In FC he was not just being violent for protection's sake but he was also doing it full of spite and malace and was taking immense pleasure in taking personal revenge......that was NEVER a side of Picard we saw on TNG.

Picard imprisons aliens to to show them what it feels like with some enjoyment in the episode where they replaced him with a double.

 

[EnriqueH]

I was just thinking the same thing as the OP: where Picard-Ahab comes from after the events of I, Borg, but I think the answer is a two-part answer:

1) The events in Descent suggest Picard had second thoughts about Hugh.
2) What some people already mentioned: The Borg changed Earth history, was starting to kill his crew and take over the Enterprise.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Still, although he became wiser at picking his battles the bar fight shows that he has that bad ass action hero side to himself. On the show he flies into a rage against his own brother, which was somewhat related to the borg incident as well.

Picard takes pleasure in violence on the holodeck, which is the same setting in which he takes pleasure shooting the borg with the tommy gun. Punching the terrorist guy on the bridge was another good example.

All this stuff is totally in character with the Picard of the show. You really have to ignore all these incidents and cast all of them aside as out of character to believe that Picard is just a spineless old geezer diplomat. Picard had never faced the borg at earth so close to home before, it makes sense that his reactions are more dramatic than what we saw in I, Borg.

In FC he was not just being violent for protection's sake but he was also doing it full of spite and malace and was taking immense pleasure in taking personal revenge......that was NEVER a side of Picard we saw on TNG.

Picard imprisons aliens to to show them what it feels like with some enjoyment in the episode where they replaced him with a double.

That's a reach. He did it because that species had no idea what kidnapping and imprisonment were like and didn't see any thing morally wrong about it, it was just a big science/social interaction experiment. So he put them in there to teach them a lesson and hope they'd think twice before they tried such a stunt again. Maybe he got a tiny bit of pleasure out of turning the tables for the moment but he only left them in there a short time and he wasn't running around screaming "YEEEAAAAHHHHHH bitches. How do you like me now? What's it feel like wondering if I'm going to let your sorry asses out of there" and high fiving the bridge crew.

It's like when you punish your child for something they did wrong but may not have understood. You do it so they learn and hopefully don't do it again, but you don't take personal pleasure from it, unless you're missing a screw or two.

If he wanted to get personal pleasure out of there he could have left them in there for hours laughing manically as they got more and more scared or he could added elements of fright or torture to it. It was a lesson teacher, nothing done out of hate of malice.

 

[The Old Mixer]

in I Borg Earth wasn't in danger
in FC Earth was in imminent danger and it wasn't even 24thcentury Earth that might be able to fight back but 21st century that would be easy pickings

This....It's an angle that's easily overlooked, but in this movie the Borg aren't just threatening Earth in the show's here and now...they're going back to Star Trek's origin and threatening to change things so that the 24th century humanity that Picard cherishes never existed.

Punching and tackling the terrorist guy on the bridge in The High Ground also felt like it came out of nowhere.

But after the wishy-washy portrayal of Picard in the first two seasons, that was good out of nowhere. I almost jumped out of my chair the first time I watched that.

 

[Ithekro]

Q: You hit me! Picard never hit me!

Sisko: I am not Captain Picard.

 

[Makarov]

Sure he was teaching them a lesson, just like he taught the borg a lesson by taking them out on the holodeck

In any case he was definitely enjoying teaching them the lesson, he brags about nonverbal communication while the bridge crew is grinning ear to ear.

Maybe he got a tiny bit of pleasure out of turning the tables for the moment but he only left them in there a short time and he wasn't running around screaming "YEEEAAAAHHHHHH bitches. How do you like me now? What's it feel like wondering if I'm going to let your sorry asses out of there" and high fiving the bridge crew.

True but he doesn't do anything like that in First Contact either. He puts one assimilated guy out of his misery and then gets overly aggressive on the holodeck, but he's protecting the ship from the borg.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

the reason to the OP's question.. the writers knew that a great deal of the people in the cinema would not have seen I, Borg.