Saucer Separation

[Timo]

It makes no real difference whether Q's chainmail obstacle was close to Deneb IV or far away from it, or perhaps in orbit around Deneb. What matters is that the combined ship thereafter flies in the opposite direction at truly extreme warp, spending at least several minutes doing so (all the onscreen moments plus the time it necessarily takes to move those people to the saucer, plus whatever optional extra one wants to add to make it more realistic).

As per the math done upthread, this is at least a lightday's worth of travel (in terms of onscreen dialogue - backstage sources would indicate at least doubled figures over what Riker claims in "Bloodlines"), and probably at least one order of magnitude more. After all, one lightday is what we get from warp 9 and the E-D was actually fleeing at warp 9.5 (and possibly attempting even higher speeds, at acknowledged extreme risk, because Q was moving faster than that yet didn't catch up).

So the saucer compensated for the combined ship's multi-minute travel at point-two-warp-factors-past-redline-at-least speeds in only a few extra hours. That's pretty remarkable in any terms, and doesn't fit with the idea of sublight travel at all unless we disregard onscreen evidence on one issue or another.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

It looks like Q was just playing with their minds.

 

[Mytran]

If the Enterprise (and Q) were warping within a solar system their actual velocity would be much slower than in deep space. Hence, they might not have gone anywhere near a light day in distance.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, if "Paradise Syndrome" rules apply, impulse might be twice as fast as warp 9.5.

But in that case, the combined ship would also obviously have chosen to flee at full impulse rather than warp 9.5.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

The TOS-E, perhaps. But a large lumbering ship like the E-D would be better advised to use it's Warp Drive (LaForge aludes to her poor sub-light performance in Relics)

In any case, the TOS-E also used it's warp drive inside a solar system in Paradise Syndrome, so there are obviously some circumstances that would warrant it.

 

[kirkfan]

The TOS-E, perhaps. But a large lumbering ship like the E-D would be better advised to use it's Warp Drive (LaForge aludes to her poor sub-light performance in Relics)
...

Actually, he was just trying to boost Scotty's morale.

 

[Timo]

the TOS-E also used it's warp drive inside a solar system in Paradise Syndrome

...And it might actually have been reasonably fast - we just have to assume that the return trip (two months at sublight, coasting with the asteroid) was at very high sublight, high enough to awaken Einstein and make the trip much longer than mere two lightmonths!

(Further, we might assume that impulse won't work at high sublight, explaining why Spock declined from using it and opted to coast. That is, perhaps "high sublight" in the Trek universe is actually an absolute speed, measured against a static underlying subspace frame of reference, and the impulse engine gets its "kick" out of that frame and can't keep on accelerating forever. Or whatever.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

If they didn't go at warp speed inside a solar system it would take hours, nay days for them to reach a planet at sublight and also that long to get away from said planet instead of the seconds it seems to take, even in Archer's era.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Wha...what?

I don't know how many times the TOS Enterprise warped out of orbit.

Many times.

 

[kirkfan]

Wha...what?

I don't know how many times the TOS Enterprise warped out of orbit.

Many times.

Exactly, and that means that they go to warp well inside the solar systems.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, the question here isn't whether warp inside a star system is possible or routine - it's what specific rules govern it so that sometimes it's fine and fast, sometimes it's agonizingly slow, and sometimes it's avoided altogether or declared risky.

Impulse travel within star systems is at least as typical as warp travel, and sometimes it's mandatory, even in extreme hurry (see "Best of Both Worlds"). But it's not dependent on location, as Sol is sometimes fine for warping, sometimes not. Maybe it's dependent on subspace weather, and Sol and Bajor are examples of places with lots of storms?

That the chase in "EaF" would have taken place in conditions of insystem molasses is a bit contrived. Evidence for and against saucer section warp drive is ambiguous enough, but accepting it would IMHO be the easier route than trying to work around its apparent presence in "EaF" and "AoF". The other route is certainly possible, but if it takes a chase in molasses...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Evidence for and against saucer section warp drive is ambiguous enough, but accepting it would IMHO be the easier route than trying to work around its apparent presence in "EaF" and "AoF". The other route is certainly possible, but if it takes a chase in molasses...

Just to be clear, I'm not buying any of this.

 

[T'Girl]

In Eileen of Troyuis (sp?), Scotty was surprised that Kirk wasn't going to warp between two planets in the same system.

 

[Timo]

...And the impression we got was that Kirk even ordered a particularly low sublight speed, whatever this "speed factor .037" means. But yes, the very use of impulse was considered exceptional already.

The trip in the other direction (completed before the episode, evidently at warp speed) must have been short in duration, because Kirk strongly insists on Ambassador Petri explaining himself, but the Ambassador hasn't yet done so by the time they arrive on Elas. He probably hasn't been aboard for a full hour yet, then, perhaps not even a full minute!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Evidence for and against saucer section warp drive is ambiguous enough, but accepting it would IMHO be the easier route than trying to work around its apparent presence in "EaF" and "AoF". The other route is certainly possible, but if it takes a chase in molasses...

Just to be clear, I'm not buying any of this.

Neither am I.

 

[Timo]

...Just to be clear, what aren't you buying?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Of course not, there is no money to buy things in the 24th century.

 

[kirkfan]

Of course not, there is no money to buy things in the 24th century.

It seems people will debate that point till the end of time.

 

[Vanyel]

Of course not, there is no money to buy things in the 24th century.

It seems people will debate that point till the end of time.

That's right, there is no money in the Federation, except when there is.

 

[kirkfan]

Of course not, there is no money to buy things in the 24th century.

It seems people will debate that point till the end of time.

That's right, there is no money in the Federation, except when there is.

Pretty much.