What is the Mars Perimeter? From BoBW

[Timo]

...Except, of course, at Wolf 359, where they are encountered at standstill in front of a fleet that hasn't fired a single shot at them as far as we can tell.

If the Borg do the grand tour of Sol in order to eliminate all insystem defenses capable of interfering with the assimilation of Earth, they would naturally also be motivated to do a bigger tour to eliminate all outsystem defenses. Wolf 359 solves their problems as Admiral Hanson offers apparently the entire local defense force to slaughter, so there's no need to alter course, just speed. But not volunteering to stop and fight would mean the Borg would have to confront both the insystem and outsystem defenses inside Sol.

So I could easily see Locutus coming up with the plan to stop and fight, and the Collective swallowing that hook, line, sinker, rod and boat (what with them being suckers for perfection and completeness anyway). Regardless of whether Locutus had ulterior rebellious plans or not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Squiggy]

If the combined fleet at Wolf 359 was "irrelevant" then they Borg would not have wasted time nor energy to eliminate the also irrelevant defensive systems in Sector 001.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

If the combined fleet at Wolf 359 was "irrelevant" then they Borg would not have wasted time nor energy to eliminate the also irrelevant defensive systems in Sector 001.

I don't think what they did could be really counted as "wasting" time or energy, at least what we saw on screen, considering all it took was 3 shots in 5 seconds and the cube didn't break stride at all as it fired.

That'd be like if a F-15 encountered a WWI biplane as opposition, fired one missile and didn't slow down a bit as it blew the biplane to bits. I don't think the pilot would be talking to his squad mates after he landed about all the time and energy he had to waste on that opposition.

 

[Timo]

...Change that to the F-15 using a half-second burst of 20 mm M61 cannon ammunition, rather than an immensely expensive missile out of the very small handful aboard, and it works. (Especially as the missile would probably miss - a biplane would provide too little heat signature or radar return!)

It sounds unlikely the Borg would consider either the starship fleet or the local defenses "irrelevant", either as a military threat or as a source of intel and assimilable technology. But flying past "relevant" stuff makes sense if one can return at one's leisure after having performed more important tasks. The Borg couldn't do that with the starships, which had the ability to follow them, but they could probably have left valiant defenders of Jupiter and Mars to stew in their own juices for a while. That they didn't speaks of their priorities and plans. Although we don't really know what it says about those.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Squiggy]

If the combined fleet at Wolf 359 was "irrelevant" then they Borg would not have wasted time nor energy to eliminate the also irrelevant defensive systems in Sector 001.

I don't think what they did could be really counted as "wasting" time or energy, at least what we saw on screen, considering all it took was 3 shots in 5 seconds and the cube didn't break stride at all as it fired.

Yeah. Doing a straight line for Earth and taking out what gets in your way, efficient.

Roaming from planet to planet while each planet is at apogee from the previous one, bullying your way through whatever paperclips Starfleet throws at you, inefficient.

 

[Dukhat]

...Except, of course, at Wolf 359, where they are encountered at standstill in front of a fleet that hasn't fired a single shot at them as far as we can tell.

And, as I keep continuously pointing out, Wolf 359 must have been in the Borg's direct flight path to Sector 001, since there would be no other reason why Hansen would have picked that particular spot to send the fleet. And, being Starfleet, the fleet was presumably under orders not to fire unless the Borg fired first, which is exactly what happened.

If the Borg do the grand tour of Sol in order to eliminate all insystem defenses capable of interfering with the assimilation of Earth, they would naturally also be motivated to do a bigger tour to eliminate all outsystem defenses.

Not if those defenses were nowhere near their flight path. Their goal was explicitly stated to be Sector 001, not anywhere else. So while taking out the whole of Sector 001's defenses was part of their plan, taking out random deep space defenses not in their line of sight was not.

 

[Ithekro]

How large is a Sector? Could Wolf 359 be in Sector 001? Or just outside of it? Is the Sol System the only system in that sector?

 

[Squiggy]

It was never specified.

Wolf 359 is an actual star located 20 light years from Sol. 40 Eriandi is mentioned as being in Sector 001 and is 4 light years closer.

So, if we assume Sol is the center of the sector then it would be safe to assume Wolf 359 is as well.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Wolf 359 is an actual star located 20 light years from Sol.

7.8 light years from Sol.

 

[Squiggy]

Wolf 359 is an actual star located 20 light years from Sol.

7.8 light years from Sol.

Meh...close enough. It's not rocket science.

 

[Marsden]

Wolf 359 is an actual star located 20 light years from Sol.

7.8 light years from Sol.

I remember that from Star Control 2.

 

[Michael]

However you feel about the realism of those three things being the “Mars perimeter”, this ...

Also, I think that scene hurt the show rather than helped it, I think it should have been cut and the budget used for something else.

... is just wrong in my eyes. In an episode full of cool moments, this short sequences is probably one of the coolest. At least it is to me. This is the first time I see people who don't like that particular shot of the massive ship making its way to Earth.

 

[Marsden]

However you feel about the realism of those three things being the “Mars perimeter”, this ...

Also, I think that scene hurt the show rather than helped it, I think it should have been cut and the budget used for something else.

... is just wrong in my eyes. In an episode full of cool moments, this short sequences is probably one of the coolest. At least it is to me. This is the first time I see people who don't like that particular shot of the massive ship making its way to Earth.

I understand. We all look at the same thing but interpret it in our own way.

For me, it seemed a pathetic attempt to stop them indicating how undefended Earth is rather than the borg's power or ability. Admittely, it is a matter of perspective, but Moe, Larry, and Shemp getting blasted in a second didn't make me feel the Federation is a force to be reconed with but a paper tiger that can't walk and chew gum.

 

[Squiggy]

However you feel about the realism of those three things being the “Mars perimeter”, this ...

Also, I think that scene hurt the show rather than helped it, I think it should have been cut and the budget used for something else.

... is just wrong in my eyes. In an episode full of cool moments, this short sequences is probably one of the coolest. At least it is to me. This is the first time I see people who don't like that particular shot of the massive ship making its way to Earth.

I understand. We all look at the same thing but interpret it in our own way.

For me, it seemed a pathetic attempt to stop them indicating how undefended Earth is rather than the borg's power or ability. Admittely, it is a matter of perspective, but Moe, Larry, and Shemp getting blasted in a second didn't make me feel the Federation is a force to be reconed with but a paper tiger that can't walk and chew gum.

Agreed. But it made it look like the core of the Federation couldn't stand up to a Ferengi Marauder, much less a Cardassian or Romulan fleet.

What's stopping them from waltzing in and taking over? Defenses? Nope. The "fleet"? Nope. The 39 ships destroyed at Wolf would set deployment back a year or more. Not much oomph for a federation comprising of hundreds if not thousands of planets.

 

[MacLeod]

One does have to wonder where Earth's Kill-sats are, but I guess perhaps Picard knew the codes and once captured the Borg send a subspace message to disable them. But in terms of fleet using DSN as a basis instead of meaning the fleet as a whole, the line could have meant the fleet that covers the area around Earth. But this was before we learnt the size of the federation spans 8000ly and over 150 members (FC), the fleet size in DSN with ships numbering in the thousands if not tens of thousands seems far more pluasible.

 

[Timo]

And, as I keep continuously pointing out, Wolf 359 must have been in the Borg's direct flight path to Sector 001, since there would be no other reason why Hansen would have picked that particular spot to send the fleet. And, being Starfleet, the fleet was presumably under orders not to fire unless the Borg fired first, which is exactly what happened.

Yeah. From which it follows that the Borg were the ones who made the decision to stop at Wolf 359 (or that spot of completely empty space that Starfleet insisted in calling Wolf 359, just like a muddy slope in the middle of nowhere was later called "Agincourt" in honor of the only nearby feature of note). If Starfleet wasn't even firing at them, it was solely up to the Borg to decide to pick a fight.

Not if those defenses were nowhere near their flight path.

Anything that could come after them would be a valid and desirable target, especially after Wolf 359 established that they actively wanted to pick up fights. And anything inside Sol would be "in their path" in two senses:

1) Making a detour would cost them very little time and effort, as distances inside Sol are minimal (compared to the time it takes to summon a starship from somewhere else to defend Sol)
2) By the same token, any military assets inside Sol would have an easy time attacking the Borg from the rear after they settled on Earth orbit.

Their goal was explicitly stated to be Sector 001, not anywhere else.

...By fallible and ignorant heroes who got everything about the Borg wrong in the two early TNG episodes to feature the Collective. What we saw happen and what we heard "should" have happened appear to be two completely opposite things. And only the former is "true" in the Trek universe.

How big is a sector? Heck, we don't even know what shape it is supposed to be... Are "sectors" random volumes of designated space floating inside a great mass of undesignated space, with the border of S001 separated from the nearest border of S002 by a dozen "empty" lightyears? Or are we talking about a systematic grid where even completely empty spots belong to one sector or another? Onscreen, we don't know.

The backstage folks have it all worked out: a Sector is a cube 20 ly on the side, so obviously 001 contains more stars (and perhaps more planetary systems - but Wolf 359 might be excluded, depending on which part of 001 Sol itself sits) than just Sol. Then there's the sub-unit of sector called Quadrant; the bigger unit Grid seems to contain lots of Sectors; and then there's the Galactic Quadrant which is the biggest of all. Things like "Best of Both Worlds" are compatible with that, but they'd be that with many other theories as well...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Again, I don't think those 3 ships were the entire defense force. They were just all that was left after the Borg already smashed through the better defenses (off-screen).

 

[Dukhat]

From which it follows that the Borg were the ones who made the decision to stop at Wolf 359...If Starfleet wasn't even firing at them, it was solely up to the Borg to decide to pick a fight.

None of which has anything to do with my original point: Wolf 359 was directly in the Borg's path to Sector 001. As for their actions, they stopped because the fleet was in that direct path, and they analyzed them and considered them not to be a threat and dealt with them accordingly.

 

[Richard Baker]

IIRC up until Wolf 359 the Borg had only the Enterprise and a couple of outposts to judge the level of technology/Resistance the Federation might bring to bear. They did have Picard's knowledge of the fleet but there could be a lot of things he would not have complete information on. Confronting the assembled fleet gave the Borg a good assessment of that the rest of the Federation had and could begin adapting for it when they continued on their way. I think Hanson mentioned the Klingons were even contributing a few ships so the Borg had those to add to their database as well.

 

[Timo]

None of which has anything to do with my original point: Wolf 359 was directly in the Borg's path to Sector 001.

Why is that a point? And since the Borg did volunteer to stop, this negates the point - if they stopped, for no reason other than to pick a fight, they would also have made a detour. Just as they did later with the Sol planets.

Assuming that anything but Sol would be on the route to Sol is astronomically impossible anyway, as stated. Why should we insist on something that is so unrealistic when it serves no dramatic or logical purpose? Starfleet estimated the route, so Starfleet would be on the route, regardless of how close to Wolf 359 it got. An calling the location "Wolf 359" wouldn't require it to be particularly close to that star, as long as it wasn't closer to any other highlight (again, see Azincourt or, say, Midway or Skagerrak).

IIRC up until Wolf 359 the Borg had only the Enterprise and a couple of outposts to judge the level of technology/Resistance the Federation might bring to bear.

Or then they had monitored us for tens of thousands of years already. But they seem quite interested in learning the hottest new things anyway (see VOY "Child's Play"), so Locutus would have had an easy time convincing them to study/assimilate the defense fleet in detail.

I think Hanson mentioned the Klingons were even contributing a few ships so the Borg had those to add to their database as well.

There is some Klingons-vs-Borg footage in Voyager flashbacks, although without evidence of any Starfleet vessels nearby. Either the Klingons did make it to Wolf 259, or then they didn't.

OTOH, there's evidence that people assimilated at Wolf 359 were whisked to the Delta Quadrant. Might be the Borg stopped long enough to start converting several of the defeated starships into new Borg vessels, as in ENT "Regeneration".

Timo Saloniemi