Too Much Death in Star Trek?

[EnsignTOS]

I probably wouldn't say that there's too much. I mean, of course that's what you'd expect in a military/science fiction setting. But I can definitely see why you'd say so, though!

 

[MacLeod]

If TOS has a flaw (and it doesn't), it would be that there is too much death in it.

"The Cage" has off screen deaths in the three crewmen that Pike lost on the "real" Rigel VII, and the crew of the S.S. Columbia.

"WNMHGB" racks up a body count of twelve, counting the nine that Spock mentions, and they are never thought of again on screen. That brings up another issue: death in Star Trek is put behind us very quickly.

A few people even die in "A Piece of the Action," one of our two comedies.

Hundreds die in:
"The Doomsday Machine"
"The Immunity Syndrome"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"The Tholian Web"

Hundreds of Klingons die in "Day of the Dove."

In "The Changeling," four billion people die before the main titles "to show that the situation is serious." Jeez!

"The Mark of Gideon" seems like one of the many episodes where nobody buys the farm, but it ends with kindly Mr. Hodin planning to unleash Vegan choreomeningitis and kill billions. And it's all smiles at the end.

I love the show, but I think they over-used death as a dramatic tool. I wonder if a lot of these episodes could have had the same emotional impact with nobody getting killed at all. And then they could have paid more attention to the realistic aftermath of death when a story required it, because being less commonplace on the show, it would be a bigger deal.

ST is still in the infancy when it comes to death, DW beats it hands down. I believe on-screen deaths average about 2 per episode over the course of it's 51 year history plus of course they did blow up virtually the entire the universe, and that's a show aimed squarely at a family audiance.

But we are talking about TV shows here, but as you touch on it's about drama, showing someone/something is a threat/dangerous, in the US hourly TV shows actually have only what 42mins or so to actually tell the story so something has to give if the aftermath of a death/event is required they'll show it.

 

[kirkfan]

-Getting vaporised

That would be some serious shit if Khan's blood could put you back together after being vaporized!

There's always time travel. Just go back one sec. before you are vaporized and beam you back from there, the way O'Brien beamed his daughter through the time portal. So not only are you resuscitated but you lost nothing of your life prior to your untimely demise.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But we are talking about TV shows here, but as you touch on it's about drama, showing someone/something is a threat/dangerous, in the US hourly TV shows actually have only what 42mins or so to actually tell the story so something has to give if the aftermath of a death/event is required they'll show it.

It seems like the 52-minute TOS episodes were focused almost entirely on things that moved the plot forward, as was Lost in Space, while the typical 42-minute drama from the 1990s onward has tons of time to spend on "slice of life" scenes that add to the feeling of realism but don't advance the plot at all.

So it's strange but true that when Star Trek used death as a signpost meaning "situation serious," they didn't have time to deal with it realistically despite the extra ten minutes of air time. In the modern approach, Kirk would spend the end of "The Apple" writing letters to the four guards' families. But for some reason, in 1967 he could not do that.

 

[kirkfan]

But we are talking about TV shows here, but as you touch on it's about drama, showing someone/something is a threat/dangerous, in the US hourly TV shows actually have only what 42mins or so to actually tell the story so something has to give if the aftermath of a death/event is required they'll show it.

It seems like the 52-minute TOS episodes were focused almost entirely on things that moved the plot forward, as was Lost in Space, while the typical 42-minute drama from the 1990s onward has tons of time to spend on "slice of life" scenes that add to the feeling of realism but don't advance the plot at all.

So it's strange but true that when Star Trek used death as a signpost meaning "situation serious," they didn't have time to deal with it realistically despite the extra ten minutes of air time. In the modern approach, Kirk would spend the end of "The Apple" writing letters to the four guards' families. But for some reason, in 1967 he could not do that.

Or they would devote a sizable part of one later episode on how one of Kirk's subordinates was asked to write one of these letters and couldn't...

 

[Metryq]

In the modern approach, Kirk would spend the end of "The Apple" writing letters to the four guards' families.

Even in a "well populated" battle zone, people can go "missing in action / presumed dead." Out on a frontier, I imagine the losses would be much higher. Even if the missing person is still alive, no one back home may ever know.

In DANCES WITH WOLVES Lt. Dunbar (Costner) and a boorish traveling companion come upon a corpse riddled with arrows. The rough character quips, "People back east must be wonderin', 'now why don't he write?'"

 

[Marsden]

We'll become the masters of the universe, yet.

Thanks, now I've got "He-Man He-Man" stuck in my head.

 

[kirkfan]

We'll become the masters of the universe, yet.

Thanks, now I've got "He-Man He-Man" stuck in my head.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

In the modern approach, Kirk would spend the end of "The Apple" writing letters to the four guards' families.

Even in a "well populated" battle zone, people can go "missing in action / presumed dead." Out on a frontier, I imagine the losses would be much higher. Even if the missing person is still alive, no one back home may ever know.

Very good point, which illustrates the future universe is not some easy, technologically protected playground. Take the S.S. Beagle--when its fate was uncovered, it hammered home the dangers of first contact; no amount of 23rd century tech would change that outcome.

 

[kirkfan]

In the modern approach, Kirk would spend the end of "The Apple" writing letters to the four guards' families.

Even in a "well populated" battle zone, people can go "missing in action / presumed dead." Out on a frontier, I imagine the losses would be much higher. Even if the missing person is still alive, no one back home may ever know.

Very good point, which illustrates the future universe is not some easy, technologically protected playground. Take the S.S. Beagle--when its fate was uncovered, it hammered home the dangers of first contact; no amount of 23rd century tech would change that outcome.

It's not everyday that you are confronted with 20th century Romans.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

"The Devil in the Dark" is on MeTV right now. Counting off-screen colonists, the butcher's bill is 53 men. I think this is another one where the point could have been made with a less severe toll. You could tell the same story, and the happy, in-no-way-bitter ending would be more plausible.

It's never been one of my favorites anyway. The general tone and setting don't exemplify Star Trek for me; it's not a space story. You could even adapt this script as an episode of the 1950s Adventures of Superman. Just substitute a remote South American mine for Janus VI, and have Clark and Lois go there instead of Kirk and Spock.

It would be a lot like Superman and the Mole Men (aka "The Unknown People"), in which strange and dangerous aliens must be defended against a frightened mob. Now that I think of it, I wonder if "The Devil in the Dark" was inspired by the 1951 movie.

 

[Melakon]

I know you can't be saying that it's okay for thousands of Horta babies to be killed before they ever hatch, but that 53 human deaths are too much, or are you?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I know you can't be saying that it's okay for thousands of Horta babies to be killed before they ever hatch, but that 53 human deaths are too much, or are you?

You're saying that life begins at conception, and we cannot have that argument here. I'm pretty sure the topic is off limits on this part of the board.

I'm saying the episode unnecessarily inflicts too much death, and it makes the resolution less plausible. And don't get me wrong, I still love Star Trek. I don't mean this thread to imply otherwise.

 

[Melakon]

You're saying that life begins at conception

No, I'm actually undecided about that, but understand your objection to the question.

 

[Poltargyst]

I do like Devil In The Dark, always have. I'm not sure how you tell this story without the deaths. The humans have been collecting but not destroying the silicon nodules? Enraged, the Horta kidnaps but does not kill 53 humans. After negotiating with Kirk, the Horta releases the humans and the nodules are returned to the Horta. Doesn't seem to pack the same punch, but eh.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"The Devil in the Dark" is on MeTV right now. Counting off-screen colonists, the butcher's bill is 53 men. I think this is another one where the point could have been made with a less severe toll. You could tell the same story, and the happy, in-no-way-bitter ending would be more plausible.

It's never been one of my favorites anyway. The general tone and setting don't exemplify Star Trek for me; it's not a space story. You could even adapt this script as an episode of the 1950s Adventures of Superman. Just substitute a remote South American mine for Janus VI, and have Clark and Lois go there instead of Kirk and Spock.

It would be a lot like Superman and the Mole Men (aka "The Unknown People"), in which strange and dangerous aliens must be defended against a frightened mob. Now that I think of it, I wonder if "The Devil in the Dark" was inspired by the 1951 movie.

That doesn't make sense to me. "Devil In the Dark" is precisely what Star Trek is about. Coming to an understanding with an alien whom you thought of as a "monster" is Star Trek at it's best. Star Trek is set in space but it's not about space.

A lot of Star Trek plots could be reworked into different settings. They weren't breaking new ground in that area. They were retelling old stories. Some of them as old as time.

What is the "magic" death toll number, anyway? Why does it matter?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

What is the "magic" death toll number, anyway? Why does it matter?

I don't want to restate my whole thesis, but Star Trek (which I love) seems to kill more fictional people than most TV shows have people.

And it's not just TOS; the tradition continued. Look at Neelix on Voyager. In order to give him an emotional back story, he came from a world where all 300,000 colonists were killed just after he left. And JJ-Trek isn't kind to the planet Vulcan.

 

[EnriqueH]

Not necessarily too much, but sometimes it was treated far too casually. I'm thinking, for example, about the "everyone stands around the bridge laughing heartily" ending to "The Galileo Seven," right after two crewmen were killed.

Even if everyone survived and lived happily ever after, that was still an embarrassing, awkward and blatantly forced ending. It plays like an alternate take of Spock's Brain.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What is the "magic" death toll number, anyway? Why does it matter?

I don't want to restate my whole thesis, but Star Trek (which I love) seems to kill more fictional people than most TV shows have people.

And it's not just TOS; the tradition continued. Look at Neelix on Voyager. In order to give him an emotional back story, he came from a world where all 300,000 colonists were killed just after he left. And JJ-Trek isn't kind to the planet Vulcan.

It's part of the setting. The "space" you are so fond of.

 

[kirkfan]

I do like Devil In The Dark, always have. I'm not sure how you tell this story without the deaths. The humans have been collecting but not destroying the silicon nodules? Enraged, the Horta kidnaps but does not kill 53 humans. After negotiating with Kirk, the Horta releases the humans and the nodules are returned to the Horta. Doesn't seem to pack the same punch, but eh.

Apparently, you can't keep people interested if they don't believe that the heroes risk their lives in doing what they are doing and also you can't keep your audience high if you kill the main characters. So your only choice is to throw joyously your red shirts into the woodchipper...