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Amaris
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I understand it wasn't for everybody, but I love Benedict Cumberbatch, so I'm not going to complain.
Still, I love the idea of the great villain being Bob from accounting.
My Gripes with STID!
- Thread starter DeMilburn
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I understand it wasn't for everybody, but I love Benedict Cumberbatch, so I'm not going to complain.
Still, I love the idea of the great villain being Bob from accounting.
Exactly. Cumberbatch was a weak Khan and didn't fit the part.
Didn't have the acting ability to pull off being a type of brilliant but sociopathic genius, I guess. That's probably why Cumberbatch's career went into the toilet after that fiasco in STID.
Since it's fiction and we can make him anyone we want to, do we make it Kirk v. Bob from accounting or go balls to the wall with Kirk v. Khan and all that entails? That's like Batman v. the Joker yet again, or Batman v. Sam the surly store manager. Sam's more original, but who isn't up for the Joker, instead? In my opinion, Kirk v. Khan in both universes creates a nice parallel, too.
The comparison with the Joker would only make sense for a superhero franchise centered specifically around punch-ups with supervillains. I don't think the Trek franchise is suited to having a "Joker" (and at any rate Khan as benchmark/inspiration for the subsequent movie villains was a much more specific and harder-to-replicate character than any version of the Joker ever was).
Didn't have the acting ability to pull off being a type of brilliant but sociopathic genius, I guess. That's probably why Cumberbatch's career went into the toilet after that fiasco in STID.
Since it's fiction and we can make him anyone we want to, do we make it Kirk v. Bob from accounting or go balls to the wall with Kirk v. Khan and all that entails? That's like Batman v. the Joker yet again, or Batman v. Sam the surly store manager. Sam's more original, but who isn't up for the Joker, instead? In my opinion, Kirk v. Khan in both universes creates a nice parallel, too.
Not if the Joker isn't really the Joker. What if it was the Penguin, but they called him the Joker in the movie. That would just piss of Joker fans.
You say "exactly," but his point wasn't a criticism of Cucumberpatch's performance or whether he fit the part (quite the opposite in the latter case, as he was tying to leave that discussion behind), it was a criticism of Khan's presence absent a prior in-(alt)universe appearance to give him and Kirk a shared history. Sooo, not exactly.
Also, you're one of the few people I've seen criticize Camembertbatch's performance. Even people who don't like the film generally have good things to say about him. You're entitled to your opinion, obviously, but it's not a common one that I've seen.
I understood his point, but I don't think he would be complaining if Cumberbatch wasn't a bland khan.
I have heard others criticize Cumberbatch's performance. There was another thread entitled "My name is...Khan," I believe the purpose of which was to complain about how he delivered that line.
No, Trek has never had a Joker, so the comparison isn't perfect. But Khan, some specific Klingons, and Mudd did get more than one shot at Kirk.
Since Trek isn't centered around punch-ups with supervillains, then Khan as a Moriarty-type, then? The point also being that since Trek doesn't constantly reboot, we could only really revisit Khan in the new universe since he blew himself up reeeeaaal good in the other. And, if we liked him so much as Kirk's foil, why not revisit him if we have the chance, again?
Didn't have the acting ability to pull off being a type of brilliant but sociopathic genius, I guess. That's probably why Cumberbatch's career went into the toilet after that fiasco in STID.
Since it's fiction and we can make him anyone we want to, do we make it Kirk v. Bob from accounting or go balls to the wall with Kirk v. Khan and all that entails? That's like Batman v. the Joker yet again, or Batman v. Sam the surly store manager. Sam's more original, but who isn't up for the Joker, instead? In my opinion, Kirk v. Khan in both universes creates a nice parallel, too.
Not if the Joker isn't really the Joker. What if it was the Penguin, but they called him the Joker in the movie. That would just piss of Joker fans.
The Joker disguised as the Penguin. Brilliant! The ultimate joke on Batman. "Now, before you get dipped into that vat of boiling pus, Batman, let me show you that the joke's been on you the entire time. You think the Penguin finally got you, but all along it's been me [dramatic reveal, disguise torn off], the Joker! [Diabolical laughter.] Batman responds, "You fiendish fake! You were nothing but a put-on Penguin, Joker!"
No, no, no! You're not getting my drift. It's not the Joker disguised as the Penguin. It's the Penguin. They just call him the Joker in the movie because they think it will be neat if he's called the Joker (even thought he's the Penguin).
No, I knew what you meant, but I just can't get wrapped up in it that far, any more. No matter who the actor was or how "Khan" he looked, to work for me, he was going to have to convince me by his actions that he was Khan, and in this movie, Cumberbatch did. It's a "your mileage may vary," situation. To me, it wasn't just slapping an "S" on Batman's chest and calling him Superman.
No, the point of that thread was to analyse Kirk's reaction. The general attitude is Cumberbatch is a great actor in a suspect part.
Indeed. If it is one thing that I question over STID is the insistence upon having Khan be the villain. I do not think it is necessary, and opens to film to unnecessary scrutiny and unreasonable comparison, i.e. because it is Khan we must compare old and new, acting delivery, etc.
Personally, if Harrison had been Harrison, I would have enjoyed the film more (than I already do). That said, I have no complaints over Cumberbatch's performance as Khan. To me, he is such an over-the-top arrogant bad guy that he is a lot of fun to watch, in a way that is different than Montleban but just as enjoyable. We get to see a Khan who is far more familar with the 23rd century than in TOS.
tl:dr-I think Cumberbatch as Khan is unnecessary but still enjoyable. YMMV
Shall we move on to a different gripe?
For example, the inexplicable promotion of Chekov to Chief Engineer?
For example, the inexplicable promotion of Chekov to Chief Engineer?
Who they gonna promote? Nameless redshirt #12?
I don't get the "CumbyKhan" could have been anybody argument because the exact same could be said for TWOK.
The root cause for Khan's strife and malice towards Kirk occurred off-screen and persisted solely through dialogue backstory. Also, the events of "Space Seed" were ultimately immaterial to the plot of TWOK. Khan's personal traits: intelligence, strength, ethnic/religious background, etc. had no impact on the film whatsoever. TWOK could just as easily be rewritten for another character with just as few changes to the script needed to make it work.
Bennett chose Khan for more or less the same reason Lindelof did. They were both right.
But, once again, we find ourselves in this reoccurring dilemma of unfair and unequal nitpicking. Personally, I'm kind of getting sick of it.
The root cause for Khan's strife and malice towards Kirk occurred off-screen and persisted solely through dialogue backstory. Also, the events of "Space Seed" were ultimately immaterial to the plot of TWOK. Khan's personal traits: intelligence, strength, ethnic/religious background, etc. had no impact on the film whatsoever. TWOK could just as easily be rewritten for another character with just as few changes to the script needed to make it work.
Bennett chose Khan for more or less the same reason Lindelof did. They were both right.
But, once again, we find ourselves in this reoccurring dilemma of unfair and unequal nitpicking. Personally, I'm kind of getting sick of it.
I'll still say:
Khan in STID kicked more ass in two minutes than WoK Khan did in both Space Seed and WoK combined.
Khan in STID kicked more ass in two minutes than WoK Khan did in both Space Seed and WoK combined.
WOK Khan didn't need to kick anyone's ass. He demonstrated his might by lifting Chekov clear off his feet in the first 10 minutes. After that, you just knew.
Seconded. TWOK/Space Seed Khan suceeded because he was underestimated. STID Khan played Kirk and was much more cunning.
I read the OP's message a little differently than that.
If only they had casted Khan well...
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