star trek generations

[Dukhat]

Seriously though, I don't need to have everything in a movie spelled out for me. I can fill in the blanks if I need to, but usually by the time I've thought about it half the movie has gone by.

That's the thing, though: I don't either. But that wasn't the problem. The problem was that the whole story was based on the assumption that the Nexus was this powerful thing that reeled you in and you'd never want to leave. The audience was figuratively beat over the head with that idea. And yet there was simply no payback from that with Picard and Kirk. To me, it's not a matter of having the reasons why it didn't affect them spelled out for me, but rather why the emphasis was on it so much in the first place. Its just the old "gun in the first act" thing. They showed the gun, but when it went off, nothing happened. Saying that the guy who pulled the trigger just missed his target or forgot to load bullets into it is hardly the best of reasons to have shown the gun in the first place.

I was actually thinking about this last night, in bed (what? isn't that a perfectly normal place to think about Star Trek?)

Well, as long as there wasn't a girl in that bed with you, you're fine.

First of all, I'd have to rewatch GEN to get a better idea of whether it would or wouldn't work, but I suspect that removing the Kirk section would have the effect of increasing the thematic importance of Picard's Nexus experience. As it is, the importance of this fantasy in relation to his traumatic loss of his family is forgotten thanks to the prominence of the Kirk section.

I understand your point. However, there just wasn't enough time in that scene for Picard to come to grips with his expereince. He realizes that it's all fake far too quickly, to make room for what the Nexus was supposed to be meant for: Kirk. There's nothing really dramatic for Picard at all. The scene would literally have to be reshot in a "non-TOS" Generations so that Picard could deal with his grief over his brother's & nephew's deaths and the end of his family line.

 

[eyeresist]

^ Sorry, was there more to your post that you forgot to type?

 

[Dukhat]

^ Sorry, was there more to your post that you forgot to type?

Edited

 

[eyeresist]

First of all, I'd have to rewatch GEN to get a better idea of whether it would or wouldn't work, but I suspect that removing the Kirk section would have the effect of increasing the thematic importance of Picard's Nexus experience. As it is, the importance of this fantasy in relation to his traumatic loss of his family is forgotten thanks to the prominence of the Kirk section.

I understand your point. However, there just wasn't enough time in that scene for Picard to come to grips with his expereince. He realizes that it's all fake far too quickly, to make room for what the Nexus was supposed to be meant for: Kirk. There's nothing really dramatic for Picard at all. The scene would literally have to be reshot in a "non-TOS" Generations so that Picard could deal with his grief over his brother's & nephew's deaths and the end of his family line.

I agree that Picard isn't really affected as he should be. Something could perhaps be created, with a lot of work. For instance, Picard looks happily at his Nexus family, but then the sound of roaring flames gets louder and louder, and Picard looks increasingly distressed. The trickiest bit of this re-edit would be removing that damn smirk from Picard's face while he's talking to Guinan.

 

[Lance]

There was a "Kirkless Generations" edit a while back, but IIRC it presented itself as a movie that just happened to have all the Kirk bits taken out of it. The idea I've had is to try and actually 'remake' GENS as a regular 42 minute episode of the series, although it's proving a little more difficult than I first imagined.

^I'd love to see that when your done.

Here's where I've gotten with it so far.

At the moment, I've scoped out much of the movie, and have done a rough put-together on my computer of what is probably the first 10 minutes. I'm using the VHS version as my base (as it's already accounted for the pan-and-scan picture), with a little help from a few outside sources, such as audio taken from the 'Generations' video game overlayed onto footage to help smooth over the rough edges plot wise.

So far, I've done:


Teaser: The holodeck scene. I've got this trimmed down to 4 minutes, beginning with Worf being brought up above deck, and ending with Picard striding out of the hdeck after receiving the message about Robert and Rene. Data pushing Crusher into the water has been ommited (as I intend to omit the emotion chip subplot).

TNG opening credits.

Opening to act 1: Enterprise glide-by, followed by a short scene in stellar cartography with Data briefing Picard about the Armagosa observatory. The dialogue in this scene I have isolated from the 'Generations' video game and superimposed over certain footage from the movie. Scene ends with Riker calling down to say they've arrived at the solar observatory and Picard and Data exiting the room.

FX shot: Enterprise approaches observatory.

Act 1, scene 2: On the observatory the away team beam in and do their recon. They recover Dr. Soran. Scene ends on discovery of Romulan corpses.

FX shot: Enterprise fly-by (color corrected to match the other FX shots).

Act 1, scene 3: Riker and Worf in engineering. They have looked through the Romulan tricorder and discovered they were looking for trilithium, but are no closer to finding out why.

Act 1, scene 4: Ten forward, beginning with the shot of Picard entering the room. Discussion with Soran as per the movie. After Picard is shocked by the "Fire In which we burn" dialogue, Act 1 ends on fade out of scene.


I haven't edited together Act 2 -onwards yet, but the broad timeline I want to follow is thus:

- Picard/Deanna scene in captain's quarters. Discussion of Robert and Rene death. Observatory fires on the Armagosa star.

- Scene change to Klingon Bird-of-Prey, Soran and Duras sisters, etc. I haven't yet decided how the Geordi-gets-kidnapped subplot gets carried over, but I hope to find a way to extricate it from the Data emotion chip scenes somehow, which I don't want to carry into this edit if I can help it (although I might end up having to change my mind on that, as a means of getting the Geordi-gets-kidnapped subplot in there, I'd still favor reducing it's presence in the overall story).

Discussion between Riker/Crusher in sickbay about the Nexus, mentioning the Enterprise-B and Kirk's death. Segues into Picard/Guinan talking about it, which in turn might be a place for a flashback of certain shots featuring Kirk, 1701-B and and the rescue of Guinan and Soran, as well as Kirk's apparent 'death'. (All of this being significantly shorter than the sequence of events in the movie version.) We eventually end up back with Picard and Guinan at the end of this scene.

Possible reprise here of the Stellar Cartography scenes, this time using parts of the original movie dialogue to show them tracking down Soran. Again the parts emphasising Data's emotion chip will be removed or at least reduced as much as possible.

Encounter at Veridian III, Picard beams down, where he encounters Soran, ends up inside the Nexus, and eventually meets Kirk. Convinces Kirk to come back and help him.

In this edit, the Enterprise-D battle is relegated completely to the finale, taking place co-currently with the battle between Picard, Kirk and Soran on the planet below it (as opposed to the battle taking place in the pre-timeline change as in the original movie version). I may be able to use certain sound clips from the 'Generations' video game to actually save the Enterprise from its destruction completely, as in the alternate ending of the videogame the Enterprise-D was not destroyed, alongside a shot of the ship leaving at the end, followed by the standard TNG TV show end credits.


As you can see, it's kind of a rough-around-the-edges project at the moment, but I think something can be achieved. Originally I was thinking of omiting Kirk entirely, but the more I thought about it, the more I figure instead I might just reduce his screen presence, still retaining William Shatner as a credited 'Special Guest Star'.

 

[eyeresist]

I'm glad that Shatner can finally make his guest appearance on TNG

 

[Lance]

^ Really, the way I figure it, the vast majority of the 'fat' that needs to be cut to bring it down to something resembling a standard 42 minute episode is probably the 1701-B sequences can be reduced (and relocated to the middle of the narrative), the Data/emotion chip subplot can either be removed or cut down, the Nexus scenes can be trimmed a little all round, as well as the saucer crash being taken out entirely. I haven't as yet decided whether I'll retain the "Generations" name for the 'episode', or come up with something else instead. But I do think it's quite achievable.

 

[eyeresist]

Good luck with that title - I haven't been able to think of anything that touches both on Picard's trauma and Kirk's resurrection.

I'm not sure how much if anything on the B should be shown, as the "cameo appearances" by Scott and Chekov might overwhelm the viewer.

 

[Lance]

I'm not sure how much if anything on the B should be shown, as the "cameo appearances" by Scott and Chekov might overwhelm the viewer.

That's a very good point. My ultimate aim is to present the 'episode' as if it were actually filmed for the regular television series, and while I can imagine they might be able to afford one special guest star for the TV show, three of them could have been a stretch.

The get-out-of-jail card, as far as possibly removing the 1701-B scenes completely is concerned, is that Commander Riker and Dr Crusher mention Kirk having been aboard the 1701-B in their sickbay dialogue. So, possibly the flashback doesn't need to actually be seen at all... there just needs to be enough to suggest that a previous Enterprise encountered the Nexus, that Guinan and Soran were both aboard her, and that Kirk apparently died during that mission. All of which, on its own, is enough to account for why Picard might later discover Kirk inside the Nexus. Food for thought.

 

[Queen Mab]

I did not like the death of both Kirk and the 1701-D. I would have preferred that the 1701-D was used in all the NG movies as was the 1701-refit used in all TOS movies.

It was destroyed in the 3rd Movie..

 

[Dukhat]

^He probably means the design, not the actual ship.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

GEN and INS are disappointment to me. I'm not mad at the nor do I hate them but I am disappointed with them.

TPM, TFF, GEN, and INS are films I don't rewatch anymore.

 

[Galileo7]

^He probably means the design, not the actual ship.

Yes. Thank you Dukhat , that is obviously what I meant. I would have rather seen a new Galaxy Class 1701-D for the NG films as we got the second 1701-A Constitution class-Refit for TOS films.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

GEN and INS are disappointment to me. I'm not mad at the nor do I hate them but I am disappointed with them.

TPM, TFF, GEN, and INS are films I don't rewatch anymore.

Gen failed for a lot of small reasons, like the Enterprise-D batting destroyed by an obsolete BOP because Riker suddenly became stupid and a coward and tried to flee instead of just opening up with everything he had with the good chance it would quickly knock the BOP's shields down and destroy them.

But it ultimately failed for two big reasons.

1. Kirk was just shoehorned in so Kirk and Picard could meet. I've said I thought the first TNG film should have been about making the best TNG film possible and if they wanted to do the "pass the torch" thing later then fine.

But the powers that be decided otherwise. So if you're going to have him in the film, have him in the film in some meaningful way. Not for 10 minutes at the beginning and 20 minutes at the end where Picard basically guilts him into helping, they never really bond and, aside from the natural normal level of sadness you feel when seeing a comrade die, have a death scene OF THE BIGGEST CHARACTER IN THE FRANCHISE have basically no real emotional or sadness to it.

Look at "Unification". Spock was in it for a specific purpose, he had a mission that he felt only he could do. He bonded with Picard and Data and it didn't feel hokey or forced at all.'

The other is Soran. In a TV show you don't have to have a real nasty bad guy every week and can play around with different kinds of plots. But in a Sci-Fi film...generally you need an antagonist that the heroes want to defeat for personal as well as practical reasons. Luke Skywalker had every reason to hate the Empire.....they killed his aunt and uncle, one of it's members killed his father (so he believed) so it was personal. In TWOK it was personal, in TSFS it was personal in TUC it was personal. In TMP and TFF it was just some person or thing that wasn't really bad, just misunderstood or misguided and didn't do anything to make Kirk or anyone else really hate him/it.

Soran was the same. I like Malcom McDowell a lot and he played the role well, but ultimately is was a hollow conflict between him and Picard. Their only interaction before the fight was meeting in 10-forward and Soran saying some creepy likes about time and fire. When they did fight it wasn't because Soran hated Picard, or Picard had a score to settle with Soran. It was because Picard was trying to stop him from doing something that would kill millions and Soran was trying to make sure Picard couldn't stop him from achieving his dream and adding Kirk to the mix didn't improve it at all.............Yawn.

 

[Galileo7]

^ Agree.

 

[borgboy]

I completely agree. The lack of importance of Kirk's role in the movie, the lack of any signifigant bonding between Kirk and Picard to make the crossover meaningful, the lack of investment in Soren as a villain...Generations is fun in it's way, but it still fails on so many levels.

 

[kirkfan]

I completely agree. The lack of importance of Kirk's role in the movie, the lack of any signifigant bonding between Kirk and Picard to make the crossover meaningful, the lack of investment in Soren as a villain...Generations is fun in it's way, but it still fails on so many levels.

The idea that if you fly into the ribbon with a ship you'll be destroyed, while if you enter it with only the clothes on your back, you'll be fine, is kinda stupid though.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

If you haven't listened to the Braga and Moore Commentary for GEN, you should. They go in to detail about what went wrong with the film. It's actually funny. It's one long apology almost.

The long and short of it is, that Paramount mandated things they wanted to see in the film and the creative team (Braga, Moore, Berman and Jeri Taylor) went out of their way to subvert expectations of the audience. Hence you get Picard and Kirk making eggs and riding horses, as opposed to them fighting the bad guys on their respective starships.

The lack of action in the film is attributed to Jeri Taylor who suggested that they do something off beat and the audience would find that "charming". I suspect she expected the audience to appreciate the novelty of the creative/writing team of purposefully not doing what one would expect in a Sci-Fi film like this. Which is all the more HILARIOUS when you watch the seasons of VOY that Jeri Taylor was executive producer of and the heavy empathize on go get'em action she approved of in that show. But for a feature film? No, we need to have the crew fiddle about on a holodeck of a 17th century ship and wait nearly and hour for a brief action scene.

 

[kirkfan]

If you haven't listened to the Braga and Moore Commentary for GEN, you should. They go in to detail about what went wrong with the film. It's actually funny. It's one long apology almost.

The long and short of it is, that Paramount mandated things they wanted to see in the film and the creative team (Braga, Moore, Berman and Jeri Taylor) went out of their way to subvert expectations of the audience. Hence you get Picard and Kirk making eggs and riding horses, as opposed to them fighting the bad guys on their respective starships.

The lack of action in the film is attributed to Jeri Taylor who suggested that they do something off beat and the audience would find that "charming". I suspect she expected the audience to appreciate the novelty of the creative/writing team of purposefully not doing what one would expect in a Sci-Fi film like this. Which is all the more HILARIOUS when you watch the seasons of VOY that Jeri Taylor was executive producer of and the heavy empathize on go get'em action she approved of in that show. But for a feature film? No, we need to have the crew fiddle about on a holodeck of a 17th century ship and wait nearly and hour for a brief action scene.

This movie seems like such a waste of potential, it's infuriating.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

If you haven't listened to the Braga and Moore Commentary for GEN, you should. They go in to detail about what went wrong with the film. It's actually funny. It's one long apology almost.

The long and short of it is, that Paramount mandated things they wanted to see in the film and the creative team (Braga, Moore, Berman and Jeri Taylor) went out of their way to subvert expectations of the audience. Hence you get Picard and Kirk making eggs and riding horses, as opposed to them fighting the bad guys on their respective starships.

The lack of action in the film is attributed to Jeri Taylor who suggested that they do something off beat and the audience would find that "charming". I suspect she expected the audience to appreciate the novelty of the creative/writing team of purposefully not doing what one would expect in a Sci-Fi film like this. Which is all the more HILARIOUS when you watch the seasons of VOY that Jeri Taylor was executive producer of and the heavy empathize on go get'em action she approved of in that show. But for a feature film? No, we need to have the crew fiddle about on a holodeck of a 17th century ship and wait nearly and hour for a brief action scene.

This movie seems like such a waste of potential, it's infuriating.

You're right it was and the reason was because it was rushed. TNG went off the air and they moved as quickly as possible to get into films. Plus they wanted to get Kirk in someway.

It was a complex process to make the transition from TV to film PLUS try and fit Kirk in some meaningful and epic way. It was something that needed to be planned carefully and slowly if necessary.

But they couldn't wait. It was like if they were all Soran and believed they were running out of time. So they threw together what they thought was good enough and sent it out.

They really would have done well to take a lesson from James Cameron in this area. Cameron, especially with Titanic, wasn't concerned about schedules or any of that, he was concerned with making the best and most accurate film possible....timetables be damned.

Of course Paramount has never been exactly patient with getting the next ST film out. It's a minor miracle TWOK turned out as great as it did considering how little time and money Paramount gave them after TMP. It could have, and probably should have, been a disaster and ended the film franchise.