My name is...Khan?

[The Wormhole]

SF is over 7 miles in length, from Bay to Ocean. In this video Aftermath of Khan's Attack, 5 seconds in, the Golden Gate Bridge is seen head-on from Starfleet HQ. This is in the Richmond District. This is at least five miles from where the ship crashed. Surely, Khan must have realized that the ship was going off course and attempted to fix it.

The computer warned Khan it could not guarantee accuracy, but Khan just yelled at it.

Khan was a trained soldier and leader in three-dimensional combat. (I am an equal oppurtunity offender. All Earth soldiers are trained to fight in three-dimensionals. Space combat would have more dimensions in it. So, Spock's comment in ST II is rubbish.)

Considering how much the writers in both movies are blatantly masturbating to TWOK, they are clearly taking Spock's comment literally, and therefore Khan knows nothing of three dimensional combat.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I guess Khan alone on the bridge of a Federation ship attempting to take as many people with him (as someone sacrifices themselves to save the enterprise) was yet another nod to TWOK - like the natural order of the events of TWOK had been awkwardly fast tracked and as a result all manner of 'natural' things were going haywire

 

[JWPlatt]

...Marcus has forced him to wear a ... new face

Tell me a single place in the movie where that is shown or explained. Otherwise that fact doesn't exist (because comics don't exist to me and they weren't read to me by a character in the movie or even shown sitting a newsstand in the movie).

 

[Khan 2.0]

"My name is...KHAAAN!" took me right out of the movie. It was far too dramatic a delivery for a name that meant nothing to the crew. It was obvious to me that the writers were speaking - no, yelling - directly at the audience. It was a "faaaaake!" It's like saying "My name is... JOHHHN!" "Yeah, okay, John who?" That's where HISHE got it right. He could have at least said "Khan Noonien Singh" and be more introductory - I mean, is the name "Khan" really like "Cher" even after hundreds of years? No one else is or was ever named Khan? For three hundred years? Unbelievable.

"Space Seed" and "The Wrath of Khan" wrote about the discovery and rediscovery of who he was and in a much more believable, well-written and organic way. Spock and Kirk did the research in "Space Seed." It was left to Chekov to say the name in TWOK. Yeah, okay, I know Chekov wasn't really there for "Space Seed," but it was more believable anyway. It was forced in STID.

In fairness, I looked up the script to "Space Seed:"
Khan: Khan is my name.
Kirk: Khan. Nothing else?
Khan: Khan.

So apparently, it has a certain consistency, and Khan may think he is like Cher in STID, but I still think it was handled far better in the TOS episode and movie without the forced recognition implied by the dramatic delivery. I think Khan was merely being evasive in "Space Seed," so he was clearly NOT expecting or wanting to be recognized so quickly by name.

yeah, I couldn't have said it better my self. khan means nothing to these new crew so why the dramatic delivery of the name by cumberbatch. it was definitely of us the audience and that took me right out of the film.

In the chaos, Khan and his people escaped Earth in a sleeper ship. He has no idea how history has portrayed him since then, however sketchy the records of the era are. So in "Space Seed" he had to play it cautiously: do these people really know who I am or not?

In STID, Khan has had a while to understand how he's understood by history in the time he's been asleep. So, he's less clueless about it than he was in "Space Seed". That said, he must've been well-known enough for Section 31 to think it prudent to drastically alter his looks (at least in the comic book) and create an alias for him. So, while I'm not fond of using non-canon to explain things on screen, if Khan's looks were altered, that would explain Kirk's lack of recognition of him even when he said his name.

The reason I don't like the comic book solution for his looks is that's pretty serious stuff. It's mutilation, actually. So on screen, if it had been the intent of the writers to go that path, I can't believe Khan wouldn't have mentioned what was done to him to Kirk as he vented.

yes something like:

James T. Kirk: I looked up John Harrison. Until a year ago he didn't exist.

Khan: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause, a surgical smokescreen to conceal my true identity. My name is... KHAN.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk acted like he recognized the name

I don't think he recognized the name at all. You could basically see the "so what?" look in his eyes after Khan revealed his true identity.

Not how I read his look, but as I have said, that's just me. I could be reading the look wrong too.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think there are bigger flaws with the movie than a flawed attempt of using an iconic Star Trek character. Like, for instance, how they changed San Francisco from a beautiful city into a fugly nightmare of towering skyscrapers and a sky that turns the buildings into a gnarly shade of brown. Or, how Khan's starship missed the mark so badly. SF Headquarters is in west SF (there is a shot which shows Golden Gate Bridge from the south, with the tower being seen directly headon - it's on the morning after the attack - carefully watch the video as the shot pans to Kirk), and Khan's starship manages to take out a good portion of east SF. I know the starship was damaged, but, jeez, the way it missed the mark,

This is hardly a "bigger flaw" or much of a flaw at all.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Although... I tend to think that doesn't make sense, having a white male with Singh as a surname.

Then you must have hated The Wrath of Khan for doing the exact thing.

And thats forgetting that Khan's Indian heritage largely comes from a Historian declaring him and Indian sikh based solely on looks despite not looking like a sikh or having anything visible on or around him that would make that conclusion not sound like something she just pulled out of her ass.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Although... I tend to think that doesn't make sense, having a white male with Singh as a surname.

Then you must have hated The Wrath of Khan for doing the exact thing.

And thats forgetting that Khan's Indian heritage largely comes from a Historian declaring him and Indian sikh based solely on looks despite not looking like a sikh or having anything visible on or around him that would make that conclusion not sound like something she just pulled out of her ass.

Plus,since it is a religion, one could convert to Sikhism. Male Sikhs often have "Singh" as a last or middle name.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Plus plus, Khan was made in a lab. His colour is either a fluke or the whim of his designer.

 

[M'Sharak]

I have moved my question about the haze in SF to a new thread.

SF is over 7 miles in length, from Bay to Ocean. In this video Aftermath of Khan's Attack, 5 seconds in, the Golden Gate Bridge is seen head-on from Starfleet HQ. This is in the Richmond District. This is at least five miles from where the ship crashed. Surely, Khan must have realized that the ship was going off course and attempted to fix it. And, where was he running to?

Look again at the title of the clip:

"Aftermath of Khan's Gunship Attack"

and at what they're discussing during the first minute of the clip.

This takes place just after Harrison/Khan has shot up the meeting at the Daystrom Conference Room and beamed himself directly from his one-man craft to Klingon territory. The crash of the Vengeance hasn't even happened yet, so whether Kirk is in the Richmond District or anywhere is irrelevant to that event. However, the fact that the shot establishes on the Daystrom Center exterior before moving to the bridge places Kirk at Starfleet HQ in Sausalito. (Right around here, maybe.)

 

[Set Harth]

Plus plus, Khan was made in a lab. His colour is either a fluke or the whim of his designer.

He still should have started out looking like Space Seed Khan because he predates the changes to the timeline.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Plus plus, Khan was made in a lab. His colour is either a fluke or the whim of his designer.

He still should have started out looking like Space Seed Khan because he predates the changes to the timeline.

The way Simon Pegg looks like Jimmy Doohan?

 

[eyeresist]

...Marcus has forced him to wear a ... new face

Tell me a single place in the movie where that is shown or explained. Otherwise that fact doesn't exist (because comics don't exist to me and they weren't read to me by a character in the movie or even shown sitting a newsstand in the movie).

Newsstand...what? It's not in the film, but it's a widely accepted assumption in fandom to explain (a) why Cumberbatch looks like nothing like Montelban, and (b) why a pale English man would have an Indian name (and, according to the literature, actually be Indian).

 

[fireproof78]

...Marcus has forced him to wear a ... new face

Tell me a single place in the movie where that is shown or explained. Otherwise that fact doesn't exist (because comics don't exist to me and they weren't read to me by a character in the movie or even shown sitting a newsstand in the movie).

Newsstand...what? It's not in the film, but it's a widely accepted assumption in fandom to explain (a) why Cumberbatch looks like nothing like Montelban, and (b) why a pale English man would have an Indian name (and, according to the literature, actually be Indian).

With a universe where surgical alterations can apparently done in a day with no side effects, I have no problem accepting one person being modified to look like another person.

I largely took Khan's line of "Harrison was a fiction created by Admiral Marcus" as more than just Andy Drufresneing an identity from thin air. I took it as S31 using all of their resources to ensure that Khan could never be identified.

 

[M'Sharak]

...

With a universe where surgical alterations can apparently done in a day with no side effects, I have no problem accepting one person being modified to look like another person.

Well, maybe not quite "with no side effects":

MCCOY [OC]: Sickbay to Bridge.

KIRK: What is it, Bones?

MCCOY: Well, if all the shouting's over up there, I'd like for you to report to Sickbay.

KIRK: What for?

MCCOY: Well, you're due in surgery. I'm going to bob your ears.

SPOCK: Captain, please go. Somehow they do not look aesthetically agreeable on humans.

MCCOY: Well, are you coming, Jim? Or do you want to go through life looking like your First Officer?

KIRK: I'm on my way.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/59.htm
​

 

[C.E. Evans]

Tell me a single place in the movie where that is shown or explained. Otherwise that fact doesn't exist (because comics don't exist to me and they weren't read to me by a character in the movie or even shown sitting a newsstand in the movie).

Newsstand...what? It's not in the film, but it's a widely accepted assumption in fandom to explain (a) why Cumberbatch looks like nothing like Montelban, and (b) why a pale English man would have an Indian name (and, according to the literature, actually be Indian).

With a universe where surgical alterations can apparently done in a day with no side effects, I have no problem accepting one person being modified to look like another person.

I largely took Khan's line of "Harrison was a fiction created by Admiral Marcus" as more than just Andy Drufresneing an identity from thin air. I took it as S31 using all of their resources to ensure that Khan could never be identified.

Yeah, that's the way I've looked at it. Forget the comics. While it might have helped some if there was a line of dialogue that went into more detail of how Khan was changed into John Harrison, we can take Khan's line in the movie that Marcus didn't want Khan going around as himself in any way possible.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Plus plus, Khan was made in a lab. His colour is either a fluke or the whim of his designer.

He still should have started out looking like Space Seed Khan because he predates the changes to the timeline.

Since Montelkhan lost his "Indian" makeup between SS and WoK, I tend to think it was a tan, which in one life he lost on Ceti Alpha V and in another, in the Section 31 labs beneath London.

Of course, for that to work one has to ignore Marla's speculation and Khanberbatch's accent. But it works for me, anyway.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Newsstand...what? It's not in the film, but it's a widely accepted assumption in fandom to explain (a) why Cumberbatch looks like nothing like Montelban, and (b) why a pale English man would have an Indian name (and, according to the literature, actually be Indian).

With a universe where surgical alterations can apparently done in a day with no side effects, I have no problem accepting one person being modified to look like another person.

I largely took Khan's line of "Harrison was a fiction created by Admiral Marcus" as more than just Andy Drufresneing an identity from thin air. I took it as S31 using all of their resources to ensure that Khan could never be identified.

Yeah, that's the way I've looked at it. Forget the comics. While it might have helped some if there was a line of dialogue that went into more detail of how Khan was changed into John Harrison, we can take Khan's line in the movie that Marcus didn't want Khan going around as himself in any way possible.

yes no doubt thats the conclusion Orci, Abrams etc came to (no doubt they toyed with the idea of having Khan explain his appearance or a flashback but decided not to go out of their way to appease the fans too much/confuse the audience - instead saving it for the comic)

of course if they had got Bencio Del Toro (or Javier Barhem) as originally intended I doubt the appearance change would've even been an issue

 

[Sindatur]

of course if they had got Bencio Del Toro (or Javier Barhem) as originally intended I doubt the appearance change would've even been an issue

Which is quite puzzling, since Javier Bardem and Benicio Del Toro both look very ethnically Mexican, and Ricardo Montalban doesn't, he looks ethnically European Spaniard

 

[fireproof78]

of course if they had got Bencio Del Toro (or Javier Barhem) as originally intended I doubt the appearance change would've even been an issue

Which is quite puzzling, since Javier Bardem and Benicio Del Toro both look very ethnically Mexican, and Ricardo Montalban doesn't, he looks ethnically European Spaniard

Yes, but then the argument could not be made that the writers whitewashed Khan's character to make the superman white.

It is a touchy subject that I'm not sure the filmmakers handled well, but casting someone with the same ethnic background, regardless of physical look, would avoid more criticism.

Of course, then the argument is that Harrison should not have been Khan at all, but that's been hashed out before.