I dunno, Pine could use some Kirking lessons from Vic Mignogna.
My name is...Khan?
- Thread starter Dales
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I have heard that he goes more Shatneresque in "Into the Woods" in his song and dance routine.
I thought STID was an entertaining movie. Although I admit I expected more from BR after ST09.
The whole Khan-story felt forced and unnecessary. Make John Harisson just another Augment and it would have worked just fine.
Of course, if they hadn’t used Khan, this board would’ve been flooded with disappointed posts too. It's a no-win-scenario
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The whole Khan-story felt forced and unnecessary. Make John Harisson just another Augment and it would have worked just fine.
Of course, if they hadn’t used Khan, this board would’ve been flooded with disappointed posts too. It's a no-win-scenario
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And yet one could argue that Bruce Greenwood was Christopher Pike "in name only," since he looks, talks, and acts nothing like what we saw Jeffery Hunter do in "The Cage."
As for being a "Brit," Carol Marcus had a British accent and she's not supposed to be British. Picard has a British accent and he's French. People are hired for roles based on their acting ability, not how they speak.
Might be worth seeing the movie for that, or I'll wait for Pine's cover of "Rocket Man".
More on topic, for what it's worth, I never liked the IDW comics explanation for why Khan looked different. Ranks right up there with creating an entire story arc in ENT to explain why TOS Klingons don't look like movie and TNG Klingons, who don't look like ENT Klingons. Worf's peevish answer to the question about the difference, "It's a long story," handled it brilliantly and sufficiently. Why is it that so many need detailed explanations for every little difference and discrepancy in Trek? After all, in nuTrek, THEY ALL LOOK DIFFERENT.
Well, there is that deleted scene where she says she grew up in England.
True, and accents can be conditioned by environment. We moved North Carolina for a while when our daughters were young and they started to pick up an NC accent. When we moved back to northern VA, they lost it. A friend of my oldest moved here from Britain. Her parents still have their accents, but within six months, her accent was gone and she sounded like every other local kid. Now, no one even believes her when she says she's British. It's more or less the opposite of Carol Marcus.
The whole khan dosnt look like khan could've added a interesting element/mystery to the film - i.e something to do with face altering tech like in Die Another Day or Face Off. ok the others all look different (some more than others) but khan was a special case as the whole hidden identity was such a big thing in the film and would've made sense to address it (even a brief line with maybe an onscreen photo of Montalban a la Space Seed)
Well, yes. But pointing out that STID cast not one but two Brits in roles that were supposed to be non-Brits doesn't exactly help matters.
The line was improvised by Bana, not written. Makes me wonder, given the writers strike, how many of the good lines in Trek 2009 were improvised on the spot by the actors.
"My name is...KHAAAN!" took me right out of the movie. It was far too dramatic a delivery for a name that meant nothing to the crew. It was obvious to me that the writers were speaking - no, yelling - directly at the audience. It was a "faaaaake!" It's like saying "My name is... JOHHHN!" "Yeah, okay, John who?" That's where HISHE got it right. He could have at least said "Khan Noonien Singh" and be more introductory - I mean, is the name "Khan" really like "Cher" even after hundreds of years? No one else is or was ever named Khan? For three hundred years? Unbelievable.
"Space Seed" and "The Wrath of Khan" wrote about the discovery and rediscovery of who he was and in a much more believable, well-written and organic way. Spock and Kirk did the research in "Space Seed." It was left to Chekov to say the name in TWOK. Yeah, okay, I know Chekov wasn't really there for "Space Seed," but it was more believable anyway. It was forced in STID.
In fairness, I looked up the script to "Space Seed:"
Khan: Khan is my name.
Kirk: Khan. Nothing else?
Khan: Khan.
So apparently, it has a certain consistency, and Khan may think he is like Cher in STID, but I still think it was handled far better in the TOS episode and movie without the forced recognition implied by the dramatic delivery. I think Khan was merely being evasive in "Space Seed," so he was clearly NOT expecting or wanting to be recognized so quickly by name.
"Space Seed" and "The Wrath of Khan" wrote about the discovery and rediscovery of who he was and in a much more believable, well-written and organic way. Spock and Kirk did the research in "Space Seed." It was left to Chekov to say the name in TWOK. Yeah, okay, I know Chekov wasn't really there for "Space Seed," but it was more believable anyway. It was forced in STID.
In fairness, I looked up the script to "Space Seed:"
Khan: Khan is my name.
Kirk: Khan. Nothing else?
Khan: Khan.
So apparently, it has a certain consistency, and Khan may think he is like Cher in STID, but I still think it was handled far better in the TOS episode and movie without the forced recognition implied by the dramatic delivery. I think Khan was merely being evasive in "Space Seed," so he was clearly NOT expecting or wanting to be recognized so quickly by name.
^ That's why I think this scene needed context. A flashback showing who Khan is, while BC effectively has his back to Pine and directly addressing the audience.
If it's a whole new universe, fine. Show this actor lying in a chryo-tube aboard the Botany Bay, found by Admiral Marcus. And glimpses further back, to Khan on some 20th Century battlefield in Pakistan, India or the Middle East. Although... I tend to think that doesn't make sense, having a white male with Singh as a surname. Not impossible, just unnecessarily complicated.
Alternatively, it's consistent with the timeline branching off in 2233, IDW graphic novel and there's a Montalban cameo... similar to Arnie showing up in Terminator Salvation. Disorientating flashes of a surgical procedure and BC in a Section 31 uniform, being indoctrinated by Marcus.
If it's a whole new universe, fine. Show this actor lying in a chryo-tube aboard the Botany Bay, found by Admiral Marcus. And glimpses further back, to Khan on some 20th Century battlefield in Pakistan, India or the Middle East. Although... I tend to think that doesn't make sense, having a white male with Singh as a surname. Not impossible, just unnecessarily complicated.
Alternatively, it's consistent with the timeline branching off in 2233, IDW graphic novel and there's a Montalban cameo... similar to Arnie showing up in Terminator Salvation. Disorientating flashes of a surgical procedure and BC in a Section 31 uniform, being indoctrinated by Marcus.
yeah, I couldn't have said it better my self. khan means nothing to these new crew so why the dramatic delivery of the name by cumberbatch. it was definitely for us the audience and that took me right out of the film.
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See Lawrence of Arabia. He was a Brit.
Given that one of S31's base is in London, and Admiral Marcus seemed to working a lot at the Kelvin Archive, that reasoning alone seemed fine by me.
Khan's different appearance made sense to me. Change it so that he could not be identified from historical records. Like he said, Harrison was a fiction created by Admiral Marcus. Regardless of how they changed him, S31 did change him.
As for Cumberbatch's delivery, I enjoyed his acting. There was such a menace to him that I found quite convincing.
This line was awesome and it made sense. I went back and watched space seed and was disappointed in how he introduced himself like he was Joe Shmoe. If Montalban had been given the same direction as cumberbatch it would have been a cool moment. He is meant to be a dictator that almost conquered the entire world, he has a bit of an ego on him, and in his former life people probably bow to his feet when he says his name. Doesn't make sense for him to introduce himself nonchalantly like Nero.
Not only that but he is saying it with anger because his name had been taken from him by the Federation. The line is perfect...
Not only that but he is saying it with anger because his name had been taken from him by the Federation. The line is perfect...
I think you're misinterpreting the scene. STID Khan doesn't think he's like Cher. He doesn't expect or want to be recognized by name. He's just pointing out that he's not really "John Harrison".
( For those who read the comics his line delivery serves another purpose, as indicated by Makarov's post. It's a reaffirmation of what he experienced on Kronos as Praxis was destroyed, when he regained his memories. "My name is... Khan." )
The suggestion that he wants Kirk & Co. to know all about who he really is seems to fly in the face of his attempt to influence Kirk and their later stint at working together to board Vengeance. Once the two Spocks have their conversation, nuSpock understands how dangerous Khan really is and this works against Khan's interests.
I would be very very angry if I was forced into another identity and I would emphasize my real name upon speaking it. And I am no Cher by any means.
It didn't need context. Even people who aren't Star Trek fans know who Khan is.
That's coming off the screen and addressing your audience with some sort of meta-awareness. Maybe that works for "Purple Rose of Cairo," but for Star Trek, I'd prefer they keep awareness to the onscreen characters, who did not know who Khan was, and not leap off the screen with a big wink at me. I do often like that kind of thing, but this was not the right context for it.
That's actually a great point. It still doesn't sell me because I can feel the writers talking directly to me from behind the screen, but it would work if done better.
@Set Harth: Again, good point. But I don't read comics. I don't get involved in them whatsoever. I watch movies with absolute ignorance of the comics universes. I don't think I should be expected to buy the comic to understand the movie. Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I don't consider comics canon even if they are officially declared as such.
