Another take on "there's no money in the 24th century"

[USS Triumphant]

It seems to me that if you examine the reactions of Starfleet Command to the things that our hero crews - ALL of them - do, the REAL Prime Directive is: "Don't break our rules, but if you do, you're golden and we will look the other way - as long as you turn out to be right or reach a positive outcome in the end, even if you couldn't have possibly known that would happen when you made the decision to break the rules."

Makes sense if you think about it - least they can do, if everything comes out kosher, is cut 'em some slack, since they're broke and ain't getting paid no way.

 

[kirkfan]

It seems to me that if you examine the reactions of Starfleet Command to the things that our hero crews - ALL of them - do, the REAL Prime Directive is: "Don't break our rules, but if you do, you're golden and we will look the other way - as long as you turn out to be right or reach a positive outcome in the end, even if you couldn't have possibly known that would happen when you made the decision to break the rules."

Makes sense if you think about it - least they can do, if everything comes out kosher, is cut 'em some slack, since they're broke and ain't getting paid no way.

Which is how Wesley et al were hoping to get away with the illegal Kolvoord Starburst. If nobody had been killed, the administration of the Academy would just forget about the illegality and let them be acclaimed as heroes. That's soooo stupid!

 

[T'Girl]

But this is a clear violation.

No, not in any way a "clear violation." Pretty obviously the prime directive changes over time, where was it ever stated that what you're referring to as a "clear violation" is (or has ever been) a part of the prime directive?

These people had lived like they did for millenia, they were minding their own business on their own planet. They weren't threatening any other world.

But when friendly visitors arrived, Vaal kidnapped, attacked, and murdered.

Given that Vaal possessed the power to prevent a beam up, why didn't Vaal prevent the beam down?

What right did have Kirk and starfleet to intrude on their world?

Visit, not intrude. If Vaal or the natives wanted the visitors to leave, some indication of this would have been proper. A simply verbal statement perhaps?.

And again, they did try to leave, Vaal prevented it.

The prime directive clearly states that prewarp civilizations which these were are to be left alone

Left alone, as in no contact at all? Where are you getting this from? No such "clear statement" exists in TOS.

picard

The Apple and Picard are separated by about a century, it not the same prime directive.

\

Starfleet or no Starfleet, Kirk's actions here are totally inexcusable.

No excuse is necessary, Kirk acted properly at every step.

He interfered and destroyed a way of life

And just to be clear, you're talking about after they tried to leave and were prevented?

one that was only asking to be left alone

If they had in fact ask to be left alone (which they never did) there's a good chance Kirk would have simply left.

The fact that it was suppressed because it didn't meet Kirk's approval, has a name, it's called fascism.

Kirk's actions were forced upon him, and it's difficult to look at Kirk, the entirety of what we've seen of him, and call him a "fascist."






.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It seems to me that if you examine the reactions of Starfleet Command to the things that our hero crews - ALL of them - do, the REAL Prime Directive is: "Don't break our rules, but if you do, you're golden and we will look the other way - as long as you turn out to be right or reach a positive outcome in the end, even if you couldn't have possibly known that would happen when you made the decision to break the rules."

Makes sense if you think about it - least they can do, if everything comes out kosher, is cut 'em some slack, since they're broke and ain't getting paid no way.

Which is how Wesley et al were hoping to get away with the illegal Kolvoord Starburst. If nobody had been killed, the administration of the Academy would just forget about the illegality and let them be acclaimed as heroes. That's soooo stupid!

Exactly - but in a way, it makes even more sense for cadets to get away with it: no only do they not have any money, they're just about not even paid attention!

 

[kirkfan]

It seems to me that if you examine the reactions of Starfleet Command to the things that our hero crews - ALL of them - do, the REAL Prime Directive is: "Don't break our rules, but if you do, you're golden and we will look the other way - as long as you turn out to be right or reach a positive outcome in the end, even if you couldn't have possibly known that would happen when you made the decision to break the rules."

Makes sense if you think about it - least they can do, if everything comes out kosher, is cut 'em some slack, since they're broke and ain't getting paid no way.

Which is how Wesley et al were hoping to get away with the illegal Kolvoord Starburst. If nobody had been killed, the administration of the Academy would just forget about the illegality and let them be acclaimed as heroes. That's soooo stupid!

Exactly - but in a way, it makes even more sense for cadets to get away with it: no only do they not have any money, they're just about not even paid attention!

Yeah, it looks like cadets are even more expandable than red shirts.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Yeah, it looks like cadets are even more expandable than red shirts.

Well, Wesley's girlfriend was probably inflatable at any rate, yes.

 

[kirkfan]

Yeah, it looks like cadets are even more expandable than red shirts.

Well, Wesley's girlfriend was probably inflatable at any rate, yes.

(I meant expendable of course.)

 

[T'Girl]

REAL Prime Directive is:

"Don't break our rules, but if you do, you're golden and we will look the other way - as long as you turn out to be right or reach a positive outcome in the end, even if you couldn't have possibly known that would happen when you made the decision to break the rules."

Perhaps more "these are the basic rules. Nine times out of ten they'll work just fine, however the unforeseen can not be foreseen, use your training, experience and best judgement to guide you.

Improvise, overcome, adapt.

Starfleet Command has your back."

If something happens outside of the basic rules, Starfleet personnel would be expected to find a solution. If you find a valid solution outside the rules, good. If you screw up, while legitimately attempting a reasonable solution, this will be taken into account.

If you fail through deciding to do something completely stupid, this too will be taken into account.

 

[Shawnster]

From Bread and Circuses

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?
KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.
MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

That is the TOS Prime Directive. However, Tyree knew about Kirk being from offworld and the Capellans likewise.

 

[T'Girl]

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?

I've alway found it interesting that Spock asked that question, in that way.

1) Was the PD not only in force, but in full force (there are levels).

2) This was up to the Captain.

Just how many different levels were there to the PD anyway? It would make sense that Captain Kirk, the top Starfleet authority on the scene, would make the call on which variation of the PD would be observed.

 

[kirkfan]

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?

I've alway found it interesting that Spock asked that question, in that way.

1) Was the PD not only in force, but in full force (there are levels).

2) This was up to the Captain.

Just how many different levels were there to the PD anyway? It would make sense that Captain Kirk, the top Starfleet authority on the scene, would make the call on which variation of the PD would be observed.

It's only up to the captain to the extent that he'll be the one court matialed if it isn't enforced.

 

[T'Girl]

It's only up to the captain to the extent that he'll be the one court matialed if it isn't enforced.

He'd probably be courts martialed for trying to apply it in a situation where it couldn't be applied too.

In the episode Bread and Circuses, in order to ascertain what happen to the crew of the Beagle, Kirk had to go down to the Roman Planet, he knew at least one of the crew made it to the surface because he saw him being killed on the local ESPN.

Kirk invoked the PD in it's fullest extent with the landing party should they encounter natives, he exercised this option, and apparently it was a option.

He dropped the PD charade with the official of the planet's government and became truthful as it was clear the official knew the truth already, Kirk wasn't violating the PD by not continuing to observe it.

He wasn't courts martialed for not enforcing it.

In the language of A Piece of the Action, the planet was contaminated, however to a much lesser extant. My impression is that Merrik exchanged knowledge and technology for a societal position for himself (and members of his crew?). In the end Merrik was dead, some members of his crew remained, and Kirk had the information he needed for his report.

Removing the contamination likely wasn't a option, removing the remaining crew would have been difficult.

Case closed.

 

[kirkfan]

It's only up to the captain to the extent that he'll be the one court matialed if it isn't enforced.

He'd probably be courts martialed for trying to apply it in a situation where it couldn't be applied too.

In the episode Bread and Circuses, in order to ascertain what happen to the crew of the Beagle, Kirk had to go down to the Roman Planet, he knew at least one of the crew made it to the surface because he saw him being killed on the local ESPN.

Kirk invoked the PD in it's fullest extent with the landing party should they encounter natives, he exercised this option, and apparently it was a option.

He dropped the PD charade with the official of the planet's government and became truthful as it was clear the official knew the truth already, Kirk wasn't violating the PD by not continuing to observe it.

He wasn't courts martialed for not enforcing it.

In the language of A Piece of the Action, the planet was contaminated, however to a much lesser extant. My impression is that Merrik exchanged knowledge and technology for a societal position for himself (and members of his crew?). In the end Merrik was dead, some members of his crew remained, and Kirk had the information he needed for his report.

Removing the contamination likely wasn't a option, removing the remaining crew would have been difficult.

Case closed.

That may be your impression but it wasn't the explanation Kirk and Spock came up with. It was a book about the mob that the other expedition left behind, likely by accident that served as template for the whole society. That's seems kinda stupid though. Imagine if the book was Tarzan king of the apes or the 120 days of sodom.

 

[T'Girl]

That may be your impression but it wasn't the explanation Kirk and Spock came up with.

An interpretation admittedly, based on Merrik being first citizen, him stating some of his crew adapted to the culture and were still living.

It was a book about the mob that the other expedition left behind

That would be the episode A Piece of the Action, and not Bread and Circuses

likely by accident that served as template for the whole society

I wasn't referring to that episode.

That's seems kinda stupid though. Imagine if the book was Tarzan king of the apes or the 120 days of sodom.

In the case of A Piece of the Action, the character of Tarzan would certainly have provided a superior role model than did Al Capone.

Tarzan was a courageous, intelligent and ethical being. A society whose adults emulated Tarzan's positive attributes would have been quite nice.

On the other hand, a society based upon the writing of the Marquis de Sade would have been far worst than the society they did build around the Chicago Mobs. It was violent yes, but not sadist.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

An interpretation admittedly, based on Merrik being first citizen, him stating some of his crew adapted to the culture and were still living.

The network announcer said that the last of the "barbarians" (meaning, Merik's crew) was killed in the arena.

As for Merik, I always thought he was being ironic: "Those who were able to adapt are still alive." Meaning, HE was the only one who could adapt.

 

[kirkfan]

That may be your impression but it wasn't the explanation Kirk and Spock came up with.

An interpretation admittedly, based on Merrik being first citizen, him stating some of his crew adapted to the culture and were still living.

It was a book about the mob that the other expedition left behind

That would be the episode A Piece of the Action, and not Bread and Circuses

likely by accident that served as template for the whole society

I wasn't referring to that episode.

That's seems kinda stupid though. Imagine if the book was Tarzan king of the apes or the 120 days of sodom.

In the case of A Piece of the Action, the character of Tarzan would certainly have provided a superior role model than did Al Capone.

Tarzan was a courageous, intelligent and ethical being. A society whose adults emulated Tarzan's positive attributes would have been quite nice.

On the other hand, a society based upon the writing of the Marquis de Sade would have been far worst than the society they did build around the Chicago Mobs. It was violent yes, but not sadist.

Oh yeah, they bomb innocent people on the street but at least they are not sadists.

"Listen kid, you're bleeding to death and are not going to make it, but at least the man who massacred you is not a sadist. Now you can die happy!"

 

[Shawnster]

It's only up to the captain to the extent that he'll be the one court matialed if it isn't enforced.

He'd probably be courts martialed for trying to apply it in a situation where it couldn't be applied too.

In the episode Bread and Circuses, in order to ascertain what happen to the crew of the Beagle, Kirk had to go down to the Roman Planet, he knew at least one of the crew made it to the surface because he saw him being killed on the local ESPN.

Kirk invoked the PD in it's fullest extent with the landing party should they encounter natives, he exercised this option, and apparently it was a option.

He dropped the PD charade with the official of the planet's government and became truthful as it was clear the official knew the truth already, Kirk wasn't violating the PD by not continuing to observe it.

He wasn't courts martialed for not enforcing it.

In the language of A Piece of the Action, the planet was contaminated, however to a much lesser extant. My impression is that Merrik exchanged knowledge and technology for a societal position for himself (and members of his crew?). In the end Merrik was dead, some members of his crew remained, and Kirk had the information he needed for his report.

Removing the contamination likely wasn't a option, removing the remaining crew would have been difficult.

Case closed.

That may be your impression but it wasn't the explanation Kirk and Spock came up with. It was a book about the mob that the other expedition left behind, likely by accident that served as template for the whole society. That's seems kinda stupid though. Imagine if the book was Tarzan king of the apes or the 120 days of sodom.

The appeal of "Chicago Mobs of the 20s" might also have been the advanced technological aspect (from the POV of the Sigma Iotia natives). Tarzan might not have had the same appeal.

 

[kirkfan]

Still, it makes you wonder if these people are any better than a bunch of monkeys. I mean, they sure have an ability to mimic societies but beyond that it's like they have no conscience. I mean: "Hey guys, let's try this society where we gun down our opponents on the street with machine guns regardless of the children that might get hurt.

-Hey how about this other book I found about democracy?

-Sure, that doesn't seem bad but let's try the other one first, ok?

-Ok."