Sisko's mother:

[Bad Thoughts]

I find your dismissive attitude to be self-defeating. What better way to convince people that you ran out of arguments, when you respond like someone who ran out of arguments?

After comparing your words to a sermon or mass, you've lost credibility in saying that your arguments are either respectful or measured. I'm sure this topic will come up in the future, in which case this conversation may continue in a better format. The problem I have is that you offer no evidence, only doubt. If you wish to continue, I think you should start producing evidence to support your opinions.

 

[kirkfan]

I find your dismissive attitude to be self-defeating. What better way to convince people that you ran out of arguments, when you respond like someone who ran out of arguments?

After comparing your words to a sermon or mass, you've lost credibility in saying that your arguments are either respectful or measured. I'm sure this topic will come up in the future, in which case this conversation may continue in a better format. The problem I have is that you offer no evidence, only doubt. If you wish to continue, I think you should start producing evidence to support your opinions.

I was making a lighthearted joke. Let's hope that some here get it. You don't lose credibility when you conclude with a joke, unless you talk to people who are so ill informed that they base their assessment of your words on these little signs alone.

The kind of crowd that vote for a president because of the color of his tie.

Anyway. If you had evidence that my opinions were unsupportable you would produce it. Since there isn't such evidence you have to distract attention by using these little subterfuges.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Emissary:

Prophet:What comes before now is no different than what is now, or what is to come. It is one's existence.

Prophet: Jennifer.
Sisko: Yes, that was her name.
Prophet: She is part of your existence.
Sisko: She is part of my past. She's no longer alive.
Prophet: But she is part of your existence.
Sisko: She was a most important part of my existence, but I lost her some time ago.
Prophet: Lost? what is this?
Sisko: In a linear existence, we can't go back to the past to get something we left behind, so it's lost.
Prophet: It is inconceivable that any species could exist in such a manner. You are deceiving us.

Prophet Motive:

Prophet 1: The Sisko taught us about corporeal lifeforms.
Prophet 2: About linguistic communication.
Prophet 3: And linear time.

Accession:

Akorem: So that I would be spared the occupation so that I could bring the D'jarras back to Bajor.
Sisko: Is that true? Is that what you want?
Prophet 1: The D'jarras are part of what the Sisko would call the past.
Prophet 2: The Sisko taught us that for you, what was, can never be again.

Here are the sections of dialogue in which the Prophets show their lack of knowledge of linear time, even their disdain for the concept, and credit meeting Sisko for what they know about it. There are many other passages, which I have not included, in which the prophets question Sisko or Quark about linear time, drawing out differences between the Prophets and corporeal beings. These are the basis for discussion their temporal nature.

 

[kirkfan]

Emissary:

Prophet:What comes before now is no different than what is now, or what is to come. It is one's existence.

Prophet: Jennifer.
Sisko: Yes, that was her name.
Prophet: She is part of your existence.
Sisko: She is part of my past. She's no longer alive.
Prophet: But she is part of your existence.
Sisko: She was a most important part of my existence, but I lost her some time ago.
Prophet: Lost? what is this?
Sisko: In a linear existence, we can't go back to the past to get something we left behind, so it's lost.
Prophet: It is inconceivable that any species could exist in such a manner. You are deceiving us.

Prophet Motive:

Prophet 1: The Sisko taught us about corporeal lifeforms.
Prophet 2: About linguistic communication.
Prophet 3: And linear time.

Accession:

Akorem: So that I would be spared the occupation so that I could bring the D'jarras back to Bajor.
Sisko: Is that true? Is that what you want?
Prophet 1: The D'jarras are part of what the Sisko would call the past.
Prophet 2: The Sisko taught us that for you, what was, can never be again.

Here are the sections of dialogue in which the Prophets show their lack of knowledge of linear time, even their disdain for the concept, and credit meeting Sisko for what they know about it. There are many other passages, which I have not included, in which the prophets question Sisko or Quark about linear time, drawing out differences between the Prophets and corporeal beings. These are the basis for discussion their temporal nature.

The problem is that the prophets communicate using human language, and human language requires an understanding of linear time. It's like saying: "Hey, that guy is mute, he just told me so."

 

[DS9forever]

There's a line in 'Til Death Do Us Part -"You shared my mother's existence, you must have some idea what love is". Seems to me Sarah loved Joseph in some way.

 

[Darren Mooney]

There's a line in 'Til Death Do Us Part -"You shared my mother's existence, you must have some idea what love is". Seems to me Sarah loved Joseph in some way.

To be fair, it's possible Sisko is trying to rationalise and justify what happened. I know I'd want to believe the best case scenario if I found out something like that.

(Although there's probably no way to know either way.)

 

[kirkfan]

There's a line in 'Til Death Do Us Part -"You shared my mother's existence, you must have some idea what love is". Seems to me Sarah loved Joseph in some way.

How would Sisko even know that? Joseph didn't know.

No I think that what he meant was that since she had shared the life of a human being (regardless of whom that human being was) she must have got an insight into what human sentiments were.

 

[Nightdiamond]

If they can do that then why not give birth directly to a "real" Sisko of their own doing and specs? It seems they would have uselessly complicated matters.

Inserting a fictional person into the Federation might be difficult for primitive folks like Founders or Organians, but the Prophets are gods. They might either distort reality locally, or simply give birth to a "real" Sarah of their own doing and specs (but only make use of her when the time was right).

The problem is that the Prophets were never shown to have the ability to take on a corporeal human form. As a matter of fact, they weren't shown to have even understood corporeal linear-time beings at all before Sisko contacted them in "Emissary."

Outside the wormhole, I don't think the Prophets had the ability to take on human form. In so many cases, in order to do certain things they had to possess a humanoid.

They had certain limitations.

- An entity inserted itself inside Troi to be born - Two Q's simply reproduced after taking human form. It seems like the Prophets couldn't do that.

Then again, maybe they did what they did, to hide Sisko from the Pah Wraiths.

The wormhole aliens are higher life forms without an understanding of human ethics. For them, arranging for Sisko's birth is no more rape than when we arrange for the birth of a panda at a zoo. They needed it done, so they did it.

Sarah Sisko was a real person.

If the prophet indeed just came and took over her body without her consent, that would absolutely be rape. It's unclear though whether it was a forceful arrangement or a symbiotic arrangement.

From each of those cases of being possessed, it seems the person could see and observe what was going on, but had no control whatsoever, except for maybe Dukat.

The Prophets could have just used her for that purpose and left, as simple as that.

They usually ignore or barely seem to acknowledge corporeal life, so it's not too hard to imagine them doing that.

 

[kirkfan]

Which is definitely a rape! Being conscious of what your body is doing without being able to do anything about it. That makes the suicide theory very plausible. Sisko should have been more concerned about that or show any concern for that matter.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Which is definitely a rape! Being conscious of what your body is doing without being able to do anything about it. That makes the suicide theory very plausible. Sisko should have been more concerned about that or show any concern for that matter.

The story says she just upped and left suddenly. She left her own baby. She must have seriously freaked out.

That whole scenario is creepy.

 

[kirkfan]

Which is definitely a rape! Being conscious of what your body is doing without being able to do anything about it. That makes the suicide theory very plausible. Sisko should have been more concerned about that or show any concern for that matter.

The story says she just upped and left suddenly. She left her own baby. She must have seriously freaked out.

That whole scenario is creepy.

She just left Joseph and never spoke to him again. That doesn't sound like someone who volunteered for the "experience", does it?

 

[kkt]

Gods aren't generally bound by the morals of mortals. Did Mary consent before the Christian God planted Jesus in her womb?

 

[kirkfan]

Gods aren't generally bound by the morals of mortals. Did Mary consent before the Christian God planted Jesus in her womb?

Wormhole aliens are not gods. For one thing they can be killed, easily at that.

 

[DS9forever]

Gods aren't generally bound by the morals of mortals. Did Mary consent before the Christian God planted Jesus in her womb?

Wormhole aliens are not gods. For one thing they can be killed, easily at that.

Easily?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Did Mary consent before the Christian God planted Jesus in her womb?

Yes actually she did.

 

[kirkfan]

Gods aren't generally bound by the morals of mortals. Did Mary consent before the Christian God planted Jesus in her womb?

Wormhole aliens are not gods. For one thing they can be killed, easily at that.

Easily?

I'll refer you to "The Assignment", it takes seconds to kill them all.

 

[Hando]

I would like to point out that the majority of gods are mortal. However strange that may sound.

The Wormhole aliens/Prophets are gods/deities - as the terms are used.



Can we somehow divine more information if we look on how much time has passed since she left the Siskos and the time she died?

 

[Darren Mooney]

I actually preferred the Prophets as presented before The Assignment. Aliens who were divine without conforming to all that stereotypical "angels and demons" Judeo-Christian tropes with the Pah-Wraiths and immaculate conception and epic battles between good and evil and all that nonsense.

The idea of incomprehensible (and ambiguous) divinity always appealed to me more than trite clichés and well-worn stories.

 

[kirkfan]

I would like to point out that the majority of gods are mortal. However strange that may sound.
...

"Strange" is not the right word. "False" is. In most mythologies gods are described as immortal. When Cronus eats his children, they stay alive inside of him for centuries until Zeus frees them. You have some reading up to do.

 

[Darren Mooney]

I would like to point out that the majority of gods are mortal. However strange that may sound.
...

"Strange" is not the right word. "False" is. In most mythologies gods are described as immortal. When Cronus eats his children, they stay alive inside of him for centuries until Zeus frees them. You have some reading up to do.

I seem to remember that the Norse gods are mortal, right? They need to eat those apples to sustain themselves until Ragnarok? Doesn't make them any less like gods.