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These are the Voyages

Sorry, but if you think people acting "like monkeys" must, by definition, be racist to black people, that says something disturbing about your attitude to black people.

Any chance you could ease up on the ad hominem attacks?

First I am only seeing racism because I'm hypersensitive and because I want to see racism. Then I am only seeing racism because I am secretly a racist.

I have assumed good faith on your part, answered the questions and criticisms made and accepted that you are perfectly justified to read the episode the way you want to read the episode.

However, the way that you want to read my argument is somewhat spurious. Nevertheless, I'll continue to assume good faith. So...

I do not think that any media featuring people acting "like monkeys" is inherently racist. Planet of the Apes is not racist. That argument would be absurd. In contrast, I think that any story which portrays a "primitive" and "less advanced" society in such light deserves scrutiny.

Similarly, arguing that anybody who has qualms about the portrayal of characters like Caliban in The Tempest must be secret racists seems equally absurd. (It's like an M. Night Shymalan twist! It turns out feminists are the biggest sexists of all!)

However, I think that there are a number of factors that contribute to make Extinction a staggeringly ill-judged and racist piece of television:

a.) the generally pulpy tone of the third season, down to the design of the Repitilian Xindi costumes and the emphasis on space pirates and other more broad space opera stylings; it works quite well elsewhere in the season, here it provides unfortunate context for some other terrible decisions;

b.) the fact that the world in question is portrayed as a tropic jungle that is home to a ruined civilisation; it doesn't matter that the whole world isn't tropical, what we see of it is;

c.) the episode's reliance of outdated colonial storytelling tropes that would not feel out of place in either a weird sci-fi magazine or even a late nineteenth-century pulp magazine;

d.) the portrayal of the indigenous population as "primitive" and "savage", unable of standing up straight and speaking with generic foreign accents while kidnapping the female white member of the primary cast;

e.) the idea that members of "advanced" civilisations will be seduced and corrupted by their exposure to these "primitives", essentially "going native";

f.) the idea that these savages need to be destroyed and controlled (or "cured") by members of more "advanced" civilisations, for their own good and for the greater good;

g.) the long and unfortunate associations between science-fiction storytelling, evolutionary biology and social darwinist subtext; there are entire books written on the subject, but Patrick B. Sharp provides a solid introduction in The Oxford Handbook of Science Fiction.

It seems hard to look at Extinction and not see its deep and unquestioning associations with colonial storytelling tropes.

(I should also clarify that these stereotypes are not exclusive to black indigenous populations. European explorers and settlers had a habit of defining most indigenous populations that way - whether the Native Americans or the Aborigines. Interestingly - and I'm wary about pointing this out because it might seem like a personal criticism - you were the one who jumped from "like monkeys" to "black." The link I was aiming for was "historical European portrayals of indigenous populations." I only cited the specific example from Transformers II in the context of "it is possible for science-fiction to be racist by analogy.")

(Edited to add: the "like monkeys" racist stereotype was not even specific to non-white indigenous populations; any casual browse through the Punch gallery or exploration of nineteenth-century British humour will offer countless examples of how the British portrayed the Irish as subhuman apes to justify their foreign policy. The fact that portraying an indigenous population "like monkeys" is a colonial attitude has nothing to do with skin colour.)
 
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Hoshi was transformed, so not all transformed actors were white. . .(Just like the fact that T'Pol is Vulcan does not mean that Jolene Blalock is not the only white woman in the primary cast.)
I'm not following the logic of these two statements, they seem contradictory to me. Then there's the inconsistency of referring to the character Hoshi as an actor who is not white, instead of mentioning Linda Park by name. But if Linda Park is not white, how is Jolene Blalock not the only white woman in the main cast?

All that aside, the episode reminded me of a bad Space: 1999 episode ("The Full Circle") where Koenig and Helena reverted to their caveman ancestors. I felt bad for Bakula, Keating, and Park being mostly reduced to lines of gibberish, though maybe they enjoyed it as an acting exercise. The story's ideas were bigger than its stomach.
 
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I'm not following the logic of these two statements, they seem contradictory to me. Then there's the inconsistency of referring to the character Hoshi as an actor who is not white, instead of mentioning Linda Park by name. But if Linda Park is not white, how is Jolene Blalock not the only white woman in the main cast?

Apologies.

I should have been clearer. That was a double negative - I was pointing out that it seemed a little... contrived... to argue that T'Pol is not "white" because she is a Vulcan.* Just because T'Pol is a Vulcan does not mean that Jolene Blalock ceases to be white and that that T'Pol is no longer "coded" as white in the context of the narrative.

And you are correct, I should have identified Linda Park rather than Hoshi Sato, particularly since I used the word "actor." But I didn't think there would be any serious confusion on the matter - I took for granted that readers would make the connection, that neither Hoshi Sato or Lindi Park are "white" and therefore not all of the transformed characters and the made-up actors could be said to be white. Apologies for the confusion.

* There would be a stronger argument if the makeup involved a dynamic change in pigment - Andorians, Ferengi, Klingons, etc.
 
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Well, I only took one course in Logic and that was 40 years ago, so I've forgotten a lot of the terminology, but it did affect how I perceive things. When the phrase ad hominem is tossed into a conversation, it suggests the speaker is concerned with logical arguments instead of fallacies.

But it's one incredible stinker of an episode, which is surprising, since it was written by Andre Bormanis, who was originally a science advisor for TNG.
 
Well, I only took one course in Logic and that was 40 years ago, so I've forgotten a lot of the terminology, but it did affect how I perceive things. When the phrase ad hominem is tossed into a conversation, it suggests the speaker is concerned with logical arguments instead of fallacies.

Fair point. My language was imprecise, and I apologise.

Are there any fallacies you see beyond the (admittedly unclear) double negative and the confusion generated by referring to Hoshi Sato instead of Linda Park?
 
"Valentine to the fans." :barf:
In all fairness, they never said which fans. I bet they meant those old school TNG fans who never even liked Enterprise.

Technically, it really was more of a TNG episode than of an ENT one?
Considering that the only characters that actually appeared in the flesh (so to speak) were Riker and Troi, and that the entirety of the episode took place aboard the Enterprise D in the 24th century... Yeah, it was nothing more than a bad sequel to "Pegasus". In fact, I'm surprised it didn't begin with "previously on Star Trek TNG".
 
In all fairness, they never said which fans. I bet they meant those old school TNG fans who never even liked Enterprise.

Technically, it really was more of a TNG episode than of an ENT one?
Considering that the only characters that actually appeared in the flesh (so to speak) were Riker and Troi, and that the entirety of the episode took place aboard the Enterprise D in the 24th century... Yeah, it was nothing more than a bad sequel to "Pegasus". In fact, I'm surprised it didn't begin with "previously on Star Trek TNG".
Try as I may, I can't place this episode in "Pegasus" though. Riker wasn't this indecisive about what to do and mostly played by ear when he decided to let the cat out of the bag. I can't see him spending much time in the holodeck during those events as well.
 
"Valentine to the fans."
In all fairness, they never said which fans. I bet they meant those old school TNG fans who never even liked Enterprise.
Those same TNG fans voted TATV onto the "Captain's Log" collection because, hey, it may be universally reviled by ENT fans, but at least it's got Troi and Riker.

Oh God, maybe B&B thought season 5 should be entirely holodeck-based, in order to win back the TNG fans.
:barf:
 
Surely you mean concurrently on Pegasus?

This story was originally supposed to be the season 3 finale.

If Berman had decided to spend this idea earlier like he wanted to, doesn't that mean that the now unused the crunch from Zero hour, attacked by Nazi controlled 1946, would be free for their swan song?
 
I was heartened to read this little snippet in the Memory Alpha page for TATV:
In 2013, eight years after the airing of this episode, Brannon Braga apologized to the entire cast of Enterprise for it and said he thought Rick Berman and himself made a "narcissistic move" in trying to make the episode a "valentine" to Star Trek. He also called it "a crappy episode." (ENT Season 2 Blu-ray "In Conversation: The First Crew" special feature)
Another reason to buy the blu-ray!
 
Surely you mean concurrently on Pegasus?

This story was originally supposed to be the season 3 finale.

If Berman had decided to spend this idea earlier like he wanted to, doesn't that mean that the now unused the crunch from Zero hour, attacked by Nazi controlled 1946, would be free for their swan song?
Space nazis or Holodeck crap? That's like Sophie's choice in reverse.
 
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