My Gripes with STID!

[Hartzilla2007]

While I think "Khaaaan!" was a homage too far, it definitely fits this Spock - whose prior two meltdowns (against the Vulcan bullies and Kirk) were preceded by a primal scream.

I loved the mirror of Young Spock pummeling his tormentor in ST and current Spock wailing on Khan in ID. Excellent callback.

Of course, the young Spock fighting bullies comes from "Yesteryear" written by D.C. Fontana from Star Trek: The Animated Series.

And also references the TOS episode "Journey to Babel," which was also written by D.C. Fontana. . .

Which coupled with Amok Time where Grand Poobah of Vulcan T'Pau insults Spock's human heritage makes me wonder where this view that Vulcans only became condescending dicks in modern trek came from.

They always had an undercurrent of snobbish jerk to them, we just so more of them than Spock (who was probably more of a Rebel Vulcan than an establishment type) so it was just more obvious.

 

[BillJ]

They always had an undercurrent of snobbish jerk to them, we just so more of them than Spock (who was probably more of a Rebel Vulcan than an establishment type) so it was just more obvious.

I think Spock tried to be the idealized version of a Vulcan, like Worf did with the Klingons.

 

[kirkfan]

]Smiling at the "singing" plant, and yelling "The Women!!" in The Cage/Menagerie.

Not the same character, it was the pilot, remember?

Making sweet, sweet Vulcan romance with Leila Kalomi in This Side of Paradise.

Under the influence of a plant.

Bawling his eyes out in The Naked Time.

Under the influence of the thing that made every one goofy.

Crying over I-Chaya's death in Yesteryear.

Regressed to earlier form of his species.

Weeping for V'Ger in TMP.

Yeah, like it was the only thing in that movie that was out of place. I'd have a hard time finding one that wasn't.

Getting emotional over meeting Surak in The Savage Curtain.

Not really.

Just to name a few...

Keep naming.

 

[fireproof78]

While I think "Khaaaan!" was a homage too far, it definitely fits this Spock - whose prior two meltdowns (against the Vulcan bullies and Kirk) were preceded by a primal scream.

I loved the mirror of Young Spock pummeling his tormentor in ST and current Spock wailing on Khan in ID. Excellent callback.

Good point. I honestly had not thought of that but it is a nice reflection. I would like to see a cut between Spock beating up Khan and him beating on the bully. Would be an interesting reflection.

Regarding Khan's miracle blood, it almost seems as if it would be a Khan feature, not a Genetically Engineered Eugenically Bred Superman Augment feature in general. Thawing out one of Khan's cohorts ought to have been doable in the time Spock and Uhura tried to corral Khan himself, yet McCoy made no attempt at such. Sure, such a quick defrost might kill the victim, but then again, Spock might kill Khan.

It's not much of a stretch to say that Khan had special blood that was all his own doing. After all, that blood was a key element in his scheme to blackmail a Starfleet/S31 member into doing his bidding - and he would have had access to S31 secrets while formulating that scheme, thus improving on his original 20th century biology considerably. Sure, Khan could simply have distilled a vial of the medicine that healed the little girl - but if the medicine already needed to be a supercure the best doctors outside S31 couldn't even dream of, Khan would certainly be tempted to make it part of his own body, too.

Not that this should be necessary to carry the plot. And the point about Khan in "Space Seed" already defying medical odds is an intriguing one. But it's a possibility.

Timo Saloniemi

I think it demonstrates the specific engineering of Khan, and perhaps the continued tampering by either S31 or himself with 23rd century technology.

But, I have no problems with his blood either. I think it has the possibility of being unique to Khan, possibly due to his original make up.

In addition, I had thought I had heard that people arguing that Khan's blood could be reflective of platelet infusion healing, that can promote advanced healing of tissues. Here's a summary of an article regarding it from 2008.

 

[Nerys Myk]

]Smiling at the "singing" plant, and yelling "The Women!!" in The Cage/Menagerie.

Not the same character, it was the pilot.

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

 

[BillJ]

]Smiling at the "singing" plant, and yelling "The Women!!" in The Cage/Menagerie.

Not the same character, it was the pilot.

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

This.

But why would anyone want a character to be one-note over decades? Spock changed and grew throughout TOS and the movies.

 

[BigJake]

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

You really have to know how much of a technicality that is, come on.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Can my gripe be that there have been uncountable gripe threads, blog posts, tweets, and other forms of negative conversation about STiD?

Feels like everything that could be said about the movie has already been said...

 

[BillJ]

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

You really have to know how much of a technicality that is, come on.

Do we have to also ignore the smiling Spock from "Where No Man...", the smirking Spock from "The Corbomite Maneuver", the emotional gamble Spock from "Galileo Seven"...

Do we exclude everything that doesn't fit a given individuals interpretation of the material? What exactly is fair game in this discussion?

 

[BigJake]

Do we have to also ignore the smiling Spock from "Where No Man...", the smirking Spock from "The Corbomite Maneuver", the emotional gamble Spock from "Galileo Seven"...

Best to not be desperate enough to be roping in examples that in production terms clearly don't fit. And trying to hyperbolically pump every instance of Spock having a facial expression or showing creativity into a Profoundly Emotional Moment is probably not the best idea either, no; you can't have "the emotional gamble Spock from the Galileo Seven" since there wasn't one, the final scene Kirk-joke notwithstanding.

 

[BillJ]

Do we have to also ignore the smiling Spock from "Where No Man...", the smirking Spock from "The Corbomite Maneuver", the emotional gamble Spock from "Galileo Seven"...

Best to not be desperate enough to be roping in examples that in production terms clearly don't fit. And trying to hyperbolically pump every instance of Spock having a facial expression or showing creativity into a Profoundly Emotional Moment is probably not the best idea either, no; you can't have "the emotional gamble Spock from the Galileo Seven" since there wasn't one, the final scene Kirk-joke notwithstanding.

Spock doesn't disagree with Kirk's assessment...

KIRK: There's really something I don't understand about all of this. Maybe you can explain it to me. Logically, of course. When you jettisoned the fuel and ignited it, you knew there was virtually no chance of it being seen, yet you did it anyhow. That would seem to me to be an act of desperation.
SPOCK: Quite correct, Captain.
KIRK: Now we all know, and I'm sure the doctor will agree with me, that desperation is a highly emotional state of mind. How does your well-known logic explain that?
SPOCK: Quite simply, Captain. I examined the problem from all angles, and it was plainly hopeless. Logic informed me that under the circumstances, the only possible action would have to be one of desperation. Logical decision, logically arrived at.
KIRK: I see. You mean you reasoned that it was time for an emotional outburst.
SPOCK: Well, I wouldn't put it in exactly those terms, Captain, but those are essentially the facts.

This argument comes down to one side saying no one should use Spock's actions in TOS when deciding how "Spock", Spock is in the Abrams films. That's an utter bullshit stance.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

You really have to know how much of a technicality that is, come on.

The scene appears in a regular episode. Spock acknowledges it is him, thirteen years ago. ?

 

[BillJ]

The same scene of Spock smiling appeared in "The Menagerie",which was a regular episode, so it is the same character.

You really have to know how much of a technicality that is, come on.

The scene appears in a regular episode. Spock acknowledges it is him, thirteen years ago. ?

The filmmakers likely saw "The Cage" and knew they had the type of wiggle room to expand Spock's use without contradicting what we see on screen. Damned Abrams and Orci! Actually watching Star Trek and using elements seen on screen that fit the characters. Those motherfuckers!

 

[BigJake]

Spock doesn't disagree with Kirk's assessment...

Spock is obviously using a figure of speech about deciding logically to take the long shot rather than do nothing, he is not actually conceding an "emotional" outburst.

This argument comes down to one side saying no one should use Spock's actions in TOS when deciding how "Spock", Spock is in the Abrams films.

This argument comes down to a bunch of flailing-about with very questionably-relevant precedents any time it's mentioned that Spock was different in TOS, which on the whole he quite plainly was. It never works because of the amount of distortion and hyperbole that's commonly employed to "defend" against this and similar propositions, which shouldn't need "defending" against if you take the new films on their own merits.

The scene appears in a regular episode. Spock acknowledges it is him, thirteen years ago. ?

The scene was shot before the Spock character was fully realized with "logic" as his core. You know this. So you know how much of a technicality this is.

 

[BillJ]

The scene was shot before the Spock character was fully realized with "logic" as his core. You know this. So you know how much of a technicality this is.

I guess we shouldn't count "The Cloud Minders" either where Spock is clearly infatuated with Droxine. Once again, what exactly are we counting? Everything from "What are Little Girls Made Of? (episode 11) to "Dagger of the Mind" (episode 12)? We have to ignore "This Side of Paradise" where Spock had a relationship with a human woman several years prior and said (after the spores had been beaten) that he had been happy. We have to ignore grinning ear-to-ear Spock from "Amok Time".

 

[BillJ]

I've asked this question before and I guess I'll ask it again: why do Vulcans undergo Kolinahr if they have perfect control over their emotions? Why would Spock feel the need to undergo it if he had perfect control of his emotions?

I know someone will quickly throw it in my face that this question isn't about Spock in TOS. But both the TV series and The Motion Picture were under Roddenberry's control.

 

[BigJake]

The scene was shot before the Spock character was fully realized with "logic" as his core. You know this. So you know how much of a technicality this is.

I guess we shouldn't count "The Cloud Minders" either where [I'm a stop you right there]

You're doing it again:

This argument comes down to a bunch of flailing-about with very questionably-relevant precedents any time it's mentioned that Spock was different in TOS, which on the whole he quite plainly was. It never works because of the amount of distortion and hyperbole that's commonly employed to "defend" against this and similar propositions, which shouldn't need "defending" against if you take the new films on their own merits.

It's not an "emotional outburst" every time Spock was fascinated or curious about something, even Droxine. It wasn't sold or played that way and you probably know it, it seems to me you're just desperately pumping out chaff because you're not comfortable with the point but can't really convincingly refute it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The scene appears in a regular episode. Spock acknowledges it is him, thirteen years ago. ?

The scene was shot before the Spock character was fully realized with "logic" as his core. You know this. So you know how much of a technicality this is.

Yet they chose to include it in "The Menagerie". They could have edited it out.

I don't think "logic" is at Spock's core. Internal conflict is at Spock's core. "Logic" represents half of that conflict. Stories where that conflict comes to the forefront are what Spock is all about. Otherwise he becomes Mr. Exposition Dump or foil for McCoy.

 

[BillJ]

...it seems to me you're just desperately pumping out chaff because you're not comfortable with the point but can't really convincingly refute it.

I, and others, have convincingly refuted it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Thing is, there are many, many people that do seem to believe the two characters are much closer than you do. People that have been watching these shows for a really, really long time. Any time an example is given, you always want to dismiss it for one reason or another. Most of the time, grasping desperately to do it. Calling "The Cage" a technicality is a joke. Do we also call "Amok Time" a technicality? "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?

 

[BigJake]

I, and others, have convincingly refuted it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

You have to use relevant and non-distorted examples to "refute" something, Bill. You find yourself having to "refute" this disagreeement over and over and over and over [& c.] because you generally do not do so.

Yet they chose to include it in "The Menagerie". They could have edited it out.

It's an incredibly weak example to be rolling into an argument about Spock and emotion nevertheless. I'd say that having to resort to that is a bad sign.

I don't think "logic" is at Spock's core.

To his overall function as part of what became the show's troika, it certainly was; superego to Bones' id. When he had his own character moments conflict certainly came into play, but usually subtle and understated (with a handful of exceptions), which is why every time this comes up, poor Bill has to rave from one end of TOS canon to the other digging up examples of Spock having a facial tic or looking twice at a woman to "prove" that he "always" had emotional outbursts.