Season 1

[JirinPanthosa]

Technologically advancing a world is not a justification for brutally occupying and exploiting it. Yeah, the caste system being eliminated was a good thing, but millions of the Bajorans being oppressed by it being murdered was not an improvement. Bajor certainly became something stronger in the process of recovery from the Occupation, but there is no justification for one culture dominating another defenseless one.

In season 1, the decision to leave Bajor is referred to as a controversial decision that many were against. After the wormhole was discovered it would have once again been profitable to occupy, so they wanted to come back.

I wonder how it was, at the state of mind the Bajorans were in at the start of season 1 that Bajor were able to trust the Federation not to just replace the Cardassians as oppressors.

As for Dukat versus other Cardassians in regards to Bajor. For most of Cardassia it was business, for Dukat it was personal. Every Bajoran who did not see him as their noble, magnanimous caretaker was a personal defeat for him.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Technologically advancing a world is not a justification for brutally occupying and exploiting it. Yeah, the caste system being eliminated was a good thing, but millions of the Bajorans being oppressed by it being murdered was not an improvement. Bajor certainly became something stronger in the process of recovery from the Occupation, but there is no justification for one culture dominating another defenseless one.

Generally speaking, the one who deserves credit for the lemonade is the one who makes it, not the one who sticks everyone with the lemons. Bajorans apparently rebuild their own society with Federation help. It was their decision whether to return to the old or start from scratch. Indeed, they may well have found the basis of an egalitarian society in the process of strategically and ideologically fighting the Cardassians, in which case Cardassia would clearly deserve no credit. Besides, Cardassia was building a hierarchical society, one with Cardassians above Bajorans.

 

[kirkfan]

It makes you wonder that the Bajoran were ready to go back to their stupid caste system if their emissary demanded it.

 

[borgboy]

It makes you wonder that the Bajoran were ready to go back to their stupid caste system if their emissary demanded it.

There will also be people slow to change with social progress. They were only one generation or so away from their traditional caste system. Also, consider how much influence the Pope has over people, campaigning lately against same sex marriage equality.

I liked the story of the caste system and the political/social debate over it. Clearly the caste system wasn't best for the people, but it does give you pause to think what other social institutes do we maintain out of tradition that we'd be better off without.

 

[kirkfan]

It makes you wonder that the Bajoran were ready to go back to their stupid caste system if their emissary demanded it.

There will also be people slow to change with social progress. They were only one generation or so away from their traditional caste system. Also, consider how much influence the Pope has over people, campaigning lately against same sex marriage equality.

I liked the story of the caste system and the political/social debate over it. Clearly the caste system wasn't best for the people, but it does give you pause to think what other social institutes do we maintain out of tradition that we'd be better off without.

I can't think of anything nearly as bad as a caste system.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It makes you wonder that the Bajoran were ready to go back to their stupid caste system if their emissary demanded it.

There will also be people slow to change with social progress. They were only one generation or so away from their traditional caste system. Also, consider how much influence the Pope has over people, campaigning lately against same sex marriage equality.

I liked the story of the caste system and the political/social debate over it. Clearly the caste system wasn't best for the people, but it does give you pause to think what other social institutes do we maintain out of tradition that we'd be better off without.

I can't think of anything nearly as bad as a caste system.

What about a prison industrial complex?

 

[kirkfan]

You mean you have that in the USA?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

You mean you have that in the USA?

Yes. We have animals, animals, all trapped trapped trapped until the cage is full.

Also we're allies with a bunch of really awful governments on account of their oil.

 

[kirkfan]

You mean you have that in the USA?

Yes. We have animals, animals, all trapped trapped trapped until the cage is full.

Also we're allies with a bunch of really awful governments on account of their oil.

Dehumanizing people when you wish to treat them inhumanely is a well known political ploy. It's amazing how often it will work.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Let's also remember what Dukat told Weyoun: "True victory is making them realize they were wrong to ever oppose you in the first place."

Dukat felt that he was entitled to 'true victory' over the Bajorans, like it was his destiny and birthright. It's why he was so interested in Kira, because beating Kira would be a symbolic victory for him over all of Bajor. Dukat was denied his true victory and always intended to finally get it, regardless of whether it was in Cardassia's best interest.

 

[kirkfan]

Let's also remember what Dukat told Weyoun: "True victory is making them realize they were wrong to ever oppose you in the first place."

Dukat felt that he was entitled to 'true victory' over the Bajorans, like it was his destiny and birthright. It's why he was so interested in Kira, because beating Kira would be a symbolic victory for him over all of Bajor. Dukat was denied his true victory and always intended to finally get it, regardless of whether it was in Cardassia's best interest.

Don't you think it's a little bit too much of a coincidence that of all the women of Bajor, and there must be millions of them, he'd have slept with Kira's mother? What are the odds of that?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

And even if he did, what are the odds Dukat would have waited that long to bring it up? I suppose maybe prior to the Occupation Arc he hadn't given up on Kira falling in love with him herself.

 

[Tosk]

Don't you think it's a little bit too much of a coincidence that of all the women of Bajor, and there must be millions of them, he'd have slept with Kira's mother? What are the odds of that?

How is that a coincidence? I always took that to mean that his fixation on Nerys came about (at least partially) because of that. Dukat has some sick ideas, man. The novel Fearful Symmetry has a further wrinkle in the Dukat/Kira situation that is pretty damn sick, but I can't help but treat it as part of his true backstory. It just seems so...Dukat of him.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Let's also remember what Dukat told Weyoun: "True victory is making them realize they were wrong to ever oppose you in the first place."

Dukat felt that he was entitled to 'true victory' over the Bajorans, like it was his destiny and birthright. It's why he was so interested in Kira, because beating Kira would be a symbolic victory for him over all of Bajor. Dukat was denied his true victory and always intended to finally get it, regardless of whether it was in Cardassia's best interest.

Don't you think it's a little bit too much of a coincidence that of all the women of Bajor, and there must be millions of them, he'd have slept with Kira's mother? What are the odds of that?

And even if he did, what are the odds Dukat would have waited that long to bring it up? I suppose maybe prior to the Occupation Arc he hadn't given up on Kira falling in love with him herself.

About the same odds as writers and producers of a series late in its run coming up with nutty, non-sensical, improbable stories.

 

[kirkfan]

Don't you think it's a little bit too much of a coincidence that of all the women of Bajor, and there must be millions of them, he'd have slept with Kira's mother? What are the odds of that?

How is that a coincidence? I always took that to mean that his fixation on Nerys came about (at least partially) because of that. Dukat has some sick ideas, man. The novel Fearful Symmetry has a further wrinkle in the Dukat/Kira situation that is pretty damn sick, but I can't help but treat it as part of his true backstory. It just seems so...Dukat of him.

How could Dukat, have made sure that the daughter of one of his bajoran mistresses, be assigned to DS9, the space station he was the governor of during the occupation? No matter how you look at it. There is quite an improbability here.

 

[Tosk]

How could Dukat, have made sure that the daughter of one of his bajoran mistresses, be assigned to DS9, the space station he was the governor of during the occupation? No matter how you look at it. There is quite an improbability here.

Who says he did, and why would he need to? If she was on Bajor and he was still a bit taken with her would it still be a coincidence?

 

[kirkfan]

The coincidence is that the Major assigned to DS9, the space station that Dukat happened to be the ex governor of, is the daughter of one of his Bajoran mistresses. That's quite a coincidence! Like one chance in a million of something like that to happen. In fact if DS9 was still under Cardassian rule somehow people could think that he was responsible for this assignment. But it isn't and that's what makes it odd. Plus he's likely known this all along, given how thorough this guys is, also the identity of the family names, Meru also likely mentioned her daughter to him many times, yet he's never shown any sign whatsoever that he did.

 

[Tosk]

The coincidence is that the Major assigned to DS9, the space station that Dukat happened to be the ex governor of, is the daughter of one of his Bajoran mistresses. That's quite a coincidence!

Feels like there are probably dozens of women around who are the daughters of Dukat's mistresses. That brings the odds down.

I'll admit it is literally a coincidence, but it doesn't seem like a very big one to me. No more the man who "killed" Sisko's wife being the one who welcomes him to his new posting at DS9. Or the only Cardassian on board having a long history with Dukat.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[kirkfan]

The coincidence is that the Major assigned to DS9, the space station that Dukat happened to be the ex governor of, is the daughter of one of his Bajoran mistresses. That's quite a coincidence!

Feels like there are probably dozens of women around who are the daughters of Dukat's mistresses. That brings the odds down.

I'll admit it is literally a coincidence, but it doesn't seem like a very big one to me. No more the man who "killed" Sisko's wife being the one who welcomes him to his new posting at DS9. Or the only Cardassian on board having a long history with Dukat.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Whatever makes you happy, but there were hundreds of starfleet officers that were directly or indirectly affected by Picard as Locutus, so that's not much of a coincidence there; especially when you compare it to the one chance in a million (likely more than a million at that) that Dukat's ex-lover's daughter would be co-managing DS9.

And as for the only cardassian on board being an enemy of Dukat. There's not much of a coincidence there either since the reason why he was on board (even though he hated it, as he admitted during one of his numerous bouts of hysteria) was because he had no choice and was unwelcome (to put it mildly) on his homeworld.

IOW, my point stands, firmly.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

the one chance in a million (likely more than a million at that) that Dukat's ex-lover's daughter would be co-managing DS9.

In general, you are correct that the odds are impobable, but more on one side of the equation than the other. I would think it highly likely that an elite concubine (or comfort woman, if that fits better) might cross paths with the corrupt, lascivious governor, whose administration makes her sexual enslavement possible. What is improbable is that the future leader of a notable strategic posting (which Kira is by the end of the series, no?) have a mother in such an unusual position. It becomes less likely when the origins of the Kiras in the Dahkur Province (presumably less metropolitan than other Bajoran regions) is taken into account. Why would the Cardassians go to such lengths to get a particular woman? If she were desirable, wouldn't the camp commander keep her?

ETA: Of course, it could have been worse. Kira might have discovered that both she and Sisko were really Darth Vader's children.