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Founders must have solved "replicative fade"

Vandervecken

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I was thinking about Weyoun the other day, just because he's such a great character(s), and that got me to thinking about the Vorta and all the Vorta clones, whatever particular one they are. Then I thought of other clones--the Mariposans in the generally not-liked TNG episode, "Up the Long Ladder" (I guess I just must like some junk eps, I like this one, if for no other reason than that Rosalyn Landor is pretty easy on the eyes).

Anyway, seems the Changelings must have solved the "replicative fade" issue. Just sayin'.
 
That also reminds me of how in the finale they make a big point of killing "the last Weyoun clone."
But surely they have his data/info/backup in the Gamma Quadrant somewhere? Seen as that's where all his first batches of clones were made. (as indeed he does return in the books)
 
"Replicative Fading" was the Xerox effect being attributed to the cloning process. Essentially, they were saying that cloning a clone would cause bits of information from the DNA to drop out with each iteration, and after too many the resulting clone would have missing parts. Not like a leg or an eye, but that little hiccups in their development would occur due to the information being incomplete.

If Weyoun 1's body is available to the Founders, they can replicate him multiple millions of times, as their technology is probably advanced enough they can replicate him from a single cell. They wouldn't have to worry about losing bits of RNA for millions of years. All they have to do is make certain the source code doesn't degrade by rotting.
 
Or their technology is just more advanced than that of half a dozen humans stranded on some colony.
 
I assumed the last Weyoun clone was just the last one they had made, and due to their displeasure with the performance of the last few Weyoun clones, they wouldn't be making more of him. Not that they couldn't do it, they were just choosing not to.
 
I assumed the last Weyoun clone was just the last one they had made, and due to their displeasure with the performance of the last few Weyoun clones, they wouldn't be making more of him. Not that they couldn't do it, they were just choosing not to.

I think you're forgetting that line where Damar attacked a cloning facility and Weyoun remarked "There's a reason he chose that facility, it contained my genetic stock. I could be the last Weyoun!"
 
The whole concept of replicative fade is just nonsense, IMO - and I thought so when the episode originally aired, too. Terrestrial evolved life just doesn't work that way - at most, you might get a little tiny mutation here and there. Not a dramatic wings-instead-of-arms sort of thing, either, but more like a her-fingernails-don't-quite-look-exactly-the-same sort of thing. Very very rarely, I could see the specific mutation being something that causes infertility in an individual. But even then, you just go back to your stock of cells from the previous generations (I'm assuming you're not complete idiots and you kept some of these) to create your next zygotes from - and even if there is a very slight mutation again, it is unlikely to be in the same direction. And THAT is only if your tech is not sufficient to repair such a minor alteration to the code with gene therapy or similar.
 
I assumed the last Weyoun clone was just the last one they had made, and due to their displeasure with the performance of the last few Weyoun clones, they wouldn't be making more of him. Not that they couldn't do it, they were just choosing not to.

I think you're forgetting that line where Damar attacked a cloning facility and Weyoun remarked "There's a reason he chose that facility, it contained my genetic stock. I could be the last Weyoun!"

I did forget that, thanks for refreshing my memory.
 
The whole concept of replicative fade is just nonsense, IMO - and I thought so when the episode originally aired, too. Terrestrial evolved life just doesn't work that way - at most, you might get a little tiny mutation here and there. Not a dramatic wings-instead-of-arms sort of thing, either, but more like a her-fingernails-don't-quite-look-exactly-the-same sort of thing. Very very rarely, I could see the specific mutation being something that causes infertility in an individual. But even then, you just go back to your stock of cells from the previous generations (I'm assuming you're not complete idiots and you kept some of these) to create your next zygotes from - and even if there is a very slight mutation again, it is unlikely to be in the same direction. And THAT is only if your tech is not sufficient to repair such a minor alteration to the code with gene therapy or similar.
As I recall, Doctor Pulaski asked how they accounted for replicative fading, and the Mariposans said they hadn't(or some equivalent). To me that meant the mutations you mention were caused by genes falling out over time, and they didn't save the originals to be able to replace them. Add to that the fact that their clones were adults upon completion, and not children to be raised, and many different and increasingly difficult to overcome problems would arise. All eventually leading to their needing new sources for future generations.
 
It's still nonsense. Paranoid fantasy that cloning somehow makes people lesser. Star Wars engages in some of that with the clone troopers, too. I'm not sure if it is because they're trying to make their audience scared of cloning, if they themselves are scared of it, or both, but they really need to stop. Cloning is no more likely to create defects or monsters than a mother having identical twins is.
 
Or their technology is just more advanced than that of half a dozen humans stranded on some colony.
It must be. Dominion biotechnology produced the Jem'Hadar, who by the Founders' choice are one step away from never needing any sustenance.
 
It's still nonsense. Paranoid fantasy that cloning somehow makes people lesser. Star Wars engages in some of that with the clone troopers, too. I'm not sure if it is because they're trying to make their audience scared of cloning, if they themselves are scared of it, or both, but they really need to stop. Cloning is no more likely to create defects or monsters than a mother having identical twins is.

Is there any scientific basis for this opinion? As far as I know, we haven't cloned a human being yet and attempts at cloning 'lesser' mammals have turned out less than perfect.
 
It's still nonsense. Paranoid fantasy that cloning somehow makes people lesser. Star Wars engages in some of that with the clone troopers, too. I'm not sure if it is because they're trying to make their audience scared of cloning, if they themselves are scared of it, or both, but they really need to stop. Cloning is no more likely to create defects or monsters than a mother having identical twins is.

Is there any scientific basis for this opinion? As far as I know, we haven't cloned a human being yet and attempts at cloning 'lesser' mammals have turned out less than perfect.
If you're referring to Dolly, I know there was mass media coverage that she died early due to being a clone, but:

"A post-mortem examination showed she had a form of lung cancer called Jaagsiekte, which is a fairly common disease of sheep and is caused by the retrovirus JSRV. Roslin Institute scientists stated that they did not think there was a connection with Dolly being a clone, and that other sheep in the same flock had died of the same disease. Such lung diseases are a particular danger for sheep kept indoors, and Dolly had to sleep inside for security reasons.

Some in the press speculated that a contributing factor to Dolly's death was that she could have been born with a genetic age of six years, the same age as the sheep from which she was cloned. One basis for this idea was the finding that Dolly's telomeres were short, which is typically a result of the ageing process. The Roslin Institute have stated that intensive health screening did not reveal any abnormalities in Dolly that could have come from advanced aging."


But even if there does turn out to be any truth that clones are born "genetically old" because of the telomeres*, obviously the people on this colony had either resolved this problem (telomere transplants?) or they were using samples from the original stock for their source material to clone from, because they weren't all geriatric 30 year olds or anything, they were fine aside from running out of viable source material (for whatever reason).

*They've cloned a very small number to use as a scientific sample so far, and as with Dolly, they may be dying young because the scientists at Roslin are good at genetics and not necessarily good at animal husbandry. ;) Also, I think we're doing it wrong so far - at least with the reported procedures. When an embryo splits "naturally" in a mother to form identical twins, those cells are still undifferentiated stem cells. Dolly was cloned using the nucleus of a skin cell from the donor animal. I admittedly can't find documentation to back this up at the moment, but I feel confident that their results would be better if they used stem cells. And I feel next to positive that they could create additional "twins" right now (if they haven't already) by using a variety of known methods to safely split the embryo - there's just not as many advantages to doing this rather than doing it to a grown organism, because part of the whole point is to be able to clone a prize racehorse or meat animals that grow particularly fast and with the best meat. Outcomes that can't be known until the animal is obviously well beyond being an embryo. (Although.... perhaps if you split the embryos on a large number of animals of a particular type, froze one of the embryos for each, and then waited to see the outcomes for the ones you didn't freeze, you could still achieve an advantage.)

I'll admit that I perhaps overstated my opinion in my last post slightly, but I'm just soooo sick of the "cloning is bad", "all GMOs are evil", "Dr. Frankenstein is going to kill all of us", etc, ignorant mess that I'm hearing so much of lately.
 
USS Triumphant said:
I'll admit that I perhaps overstated my opinion in my last post slightly, but I'm just soooo sick of the "cloning is bad", "all GMOs are evil", "Dr. Frankenstein is going to kill all of us", etc, ignorant mess that I'm hearing so much of lately.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it's important to temper emotional response with available science.
 
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