Cardassia's Final Fate

[Grendelsbayne]

Stripping Cardassia of ill-gained colonial possessions sounds fine and well, until one thinks what it actually means. Millions of innocents are going to be deported, their colonial lives replaced by ones of misery on some concentration camp or another until enough have died so that they can be resettled on the former homeworld in those horrid pre-conquest conditions. Or then all-new worlds are going to be allocated for the innocents, meaning Cardassia just swaps conquests.

Timo Saloniemi

You're assuming the Cardassians were actually colonizing all the worlds they conquered. Fifty years of occupation on Bajor didn't seem to involve much of anything in the way of colonization - just military dictatorship. Part of me suspects the Cardassian paramilitary 'colonists' in the demilitarized zone were nothing more than a convenient political ploy to make Federation citizens (and politicians) less inclined to support the war effort. The Cardassians may not have bothered with that sort of thing at all if they were facing any other (less morally relativistic) enemy.

Also, we're talking about civilizations that span millions of light years. Deportation doesn't automatically have to end up in 'concentration camps'. They could potentially have an entire (otherwise uninhabited) world to themselves. It probably wouldn't be the best world ever (or else someone else would be there already) but with the inevitable Federation donations of colonization technology, it would probably be a perfectly reasonable existence.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But many of those in the military were war criminals long before they joined the Dominion.

By whose standards, though?

Cardassia was defeated by Klingons and Romulans in addition to the cultures behind the UFP Starfleet. What percentage of the victors would see anything "wrong" about what the Cardassians did before the war? What percentage would be interested in the concept of war crimes to begin with? I'd think more people on the winning side (regardless of whether we count just heads of state, generals, judges, soldiers, or concerned citizens) would feel that Cardassians have to be punished because they were weak enough to lose the war than that Cardassians have to be punished for something they did or failed to do before or during the war.

As for the Feds, they don't seem to agree on too many things between themselves. Their own laws, at least in the TOS era, are vague enough to allow for homicide and slavery even when general sentiment denounces the practices. The UFP as a whole is extremely timid about forcing outsiders to live the way they themselves do, even when several individual UFP member cultures whip their own citizens to submission over lifestyle issues. Accusing a foreign culture of "war crimes" would appear the peak of hypocrisy, yet choosing to declare war a crime in itself isn't any more fruitful an approach, as the UFP formally started this one...

I could well see the UFP pursuing justice to be served. I can't easily see them ranting about war crimes.

Timo Saloniemi

For one the female founder agreed to go to prison for war crimes as part of the treaty.

When you get to the point where you're wiping out cities, murdering defenseless people and enslaving entire cultures, you've gone past the point of moral relativism.

 

[Merlanthe]

Damar had a change of heart but he never served any time for his previous crimes. He never personally accepted the consequences for participating in slavery and genocide, and selling out the galaxy for his own planet's dominance.

Damar's wife and son were killed by the dominion in retaliation for his leading a resistance movement so He might not have served time but I wouldn't say he never received any punishment for his past crimes. I'm pretty sure that was where he finally stopped viewing his people through rose tinted glasses and realised that they had been just as bad as the dominion.

Also it was dukat who sold out the galaxy for his own planets dominance (make that his own dominance cause he didn't really care about anyone but himself). Damar was never comfortable with the dominion around he didn't like or trust them.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

Damar seemed to be a true patriot to Cardassia. Just because when the Dominion subjugated Cardassia, he sought Federation assistance in overthrowing them doesn't mean he had any allegiance to the Federation. Dukat could also be co-operative with the Federation, IF it served his interests at the time.

Don't forget, he didn't get a chance to find out whether he would be prosecuted for historical crimes or become a hero and leader - he did not survive the final assault on the Dominion HQ.

 

[Timo]

For one the female founder agreed to go to prison for war crimes as part of the treaty.

Well, no. She agreed to stand trial and accept responsibility. We saw no trial and heard of no particular form of responsibility-bearing. Nobody uttered the words "war crime". And we have zero idea of the contents of the treaty - for all we know, it says that the war ended in an honorable draw and neither side will require anything further from the other.

When you get to the point where you're wiping out cities, murdering defenseless people and enslaving entire cultures, you've gone past the point of moral relativism.

Well, no. Kirk was quite ready to wipe out defenseless cities, too - it's called warfare, and humans practice it a lot in Star Trek.

You're assuming the Cardassians were actually colonizing all the worlds they conquered.

Actually, I'm just thinking that we only ever heard of one Cardassian conquest that had any native life remaining. It would stand to reason that there would be other worlds like Bajor, but we hear of none explicitly.

Telling Cardassians to give back worlds they have taken would probably be equally effective in humiliating them whether those worlds had native, potentially enslaved populations or not. And in both cases, the problem of resettling the Cardassians living there would be significant.

Yes, there would be empty worlds waiting to be allocated for this use - the Skreeans in "Sanctuary" were provided with a new home in no time flat. But as said, that would just be giving the Cardassians a new conquered world in exchange for an old one. What sort of punishment or retribution would that be?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You're assuming the Cardassians were actually colonizing all the worlds they conquered.

Actually, I'm just thinking that we only ever heard of one Cardassian conquest that had any native life remaining. It would stand to reason that there would be other worlds like Bajor, but we hear of none explicitly.

Telling Cardassians to give back worlds they have taken would probably be equally effective in humiliating them whether those worlds had native, potentially enslaved populations or not. And in both cases, the problem of resettling the Cardassians living there would be significant.

Yes, there would be empty worlds waiting to be allocated for this use - the Skreeans in "Sanctuary" were provided with a new home in no time flat. But as said, that would just be giving the Cardassians a new conquered world in exchange for an old one. What sort of punishment or retribution would that be?

Timo Saloniemi

Well, settling people on an unihabited planet doesn't amount to 'conquest' under any definition of the term I'm familiar with. Also, while I can certainly see the Klingons and Romulans annexing parts of Cardassian territory for themselves as restitution (which probably would result in large resettlements), I don't see any logical scenario where people would demand that Cardassians vacate every world they ever conquered as 'punishment' without regard for whether the original population even exists anymore. When people talk about Cardassia having to give up it's conquests as punishment, I think it's generally understood that they're talking about planets like Bajor or those Maquis worlds where there are still people who should be considered the rightful owners of the planets in question. As well as, of course, any territory captured in the Dominion war itself, and potentially whatever significant military installations might exist which can't be allowed to continue existing.

The only large scale deportations I see happening would be the result of the victorious empires deciding to annex strategically important areas (which, sure, politicians will call it punishment, but it would mainly be opportunism) and even that might not lead to 100% resettlement. The Romulan Empire definitely includes at least a few subjugate races, so one more in the mix wouldn't be a big deal. The Klingons seem a bit murkier, but hey, they were all about 'winning hearts and minds' in several TOS episodes and their whole warrior culture shtick really ought to cause huge social problems, unless they have some massive hidden reservoir of laborers and intellectuals who don't have to spend their entire lives worrying about honor. So it's at least not out of the realm of possibility that they might let the Cardassians stay as second class citizens.

 

[MacLeod]

But in the case of some of the Maquis worlds, they belong to Cardassia as they were ceded to them as part of a treaty, some Cardassain worlds became Federation worlds as part of that same treaty. The colonists where offered relocation.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

But in the case of some of the Maquis worlds, they belong to Cardassia as they were ceded to them as part of a treaty, some Cardassain worlds became Federation worlds as part of that same treaty. The colonists where offered relocation.

Absolutely, and they might very well not have to give them up (a lot depends on the political mood in the federation, I would say). The series actually doesn't entirely clarify, as far as I can remember, whether there are any humans still living in the demilitarized zone at all after the Dominion's reign of terror, so they might not even be relevant to this discussion. But if they are still there, it certainly wouldn't be the first time in history one peace treaty was almost completely reversed by the next one.

Also, the d.z. is still pretty young anyway. Even if they removed all the cardassian colonies entirely, I doubt it would produce that large of a refugee population.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That depends on your views about whether a last minute change of heart negates a career of despotism. We don't know a lot about Damar's life prior to his appearance in the show, but if he was in the military he was a participant in the enslavement of Bajor.

I suppose you could say in his case he was just following orders then made the best of a horrible situation.

Do we know he was even ever assigned a post on Bajor? If not how could we say he was a participant in the enslavement of Bajor?

I'm guessing he's basing that on the Terok Nor novels that placed Damar on Bajor during Dukat's prefecture.

And let's talk about Tekeny Ghemor. No one doubts his sincerity - he was part of the dissident movement *against* the Cardassian military government. Yet Ghemor also served in that same military, and was on Bajor when he was a young soldier (his unit even took part in the destruction of a Bajoran monastery in which 17 monks died). Ghemor was obviously not a war criminal though, you only had to look at his later actions to see that. He deeply regretted the attack on the monastery, even though he was a newbie at the time and had no choice but to take part.

The point is this: If you won't believe Damar could have had a change of heart, then what about Ghemor? Are we supposed to ignore his later actions because of his earlier ones? Isn't it EVER possible to seek redemption and receive it? I should think it is.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Do we know he was even ever assigned a post on Bajor? If not how could we say he was a participant in the enslavement of Bajor?

I'm guessing he's basing that on the Terok Nor novels that placed Damar on Bajor during Dukat's prefecture.

And let's talk about Tekeny Ghemor. No one doubts his sincerity - he was part of the dissident movement *against* the Cardassian military government. Yet Ghemor also served in that same military, and was on Bajor when he was a young soldier (there's no evidence he personally committed any crimes, though). If you won't believe Damar could have had a change of heart, then what about Ghemor?

Kira certainly thought so when she abused poor agonizing Ghemor when he was hours away from death. I remember thinking back then ( when I saw it for the first time) what an unconscionable bitch! To see how easily she let herself be manipulated by Dukat! Revolting!

 

[kkt]

Kira certainly thought so when she abused poor agonizing Ghemor when he was hours away from death. I remember thinking back then ( when I saw it for the first time) what an unconscionable bitch! To see how easily she let herself be manipulated by Dukat! Revolting!

But she did come back and comfort Ghemor at the very end. If we allow Ghemor redemption for participating in the destruction of the monastery, we should allow Kira redemption for a day or so of behaving unconscionably toward Ghemor as he was approaching death.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Kira certainly thought so when she abused poor agonizing Ghemor when he was hours away from death. I remember thinking back then ( when I saw it for the first time) what an unconscionable bitch! To see how easily she let herself be manipulated by Dukat! Revolting!

But she did come back and comfort Ghemor at the very end. If we allow Ghemor redemption for participating in the destruction of the monastery, we should allow Kira redemption for a day or so of behaving unconscionably toward Ghemor as he was approaching death.

She abandoned her own father on his death bed many years before!

No character growth there, obviously. She missed her chance at atoning for that first mistake.

 

[SicOne]

IIRC, in the "Destiny" book trilogy (the events of which took place in early 2381, almost 5 years after the Dominion War ended), Garak negotiated Cardassian support of the anti-Borg armada in return for 3 Class-M worlds, which Federation President Bacco handed over to the Cardassian Union like it was no big deal. One, of course, assumes those were Federation worlds along the Cardassian border. Hitherto this point, Garak had been telling Bacco that they'd be happy to help, but they were having food shortage problems, blah-blah-blah, and that was the point in which Bacco offered to fork over 3 planets and that was enough to get the Cardassians on board.

Regarding the Cardassian Union, another poster suggested that the CU would be partitioned post-Dominion War into four parts, but I am thinking that it would be more favorable to the Federation to allow the CU to remain intact, perhaps save some worlds that had been forcibly annexed into the CU; those worlds might, as part of the treaty, be allowed to determine whether to stay members of the CU or become independent, but probably would not be permitted to, say, immediately petition for Federation membership. One of the reasons the Cardassians sided with the Dominion is because they felt weaker than other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers, and allowing the Klingon Empire and/or the Romulan Star Empire/Imperial Romulan State to annex Cardassian territory might put the Cardassians right back where they were before. After their home planet was shot to dogshit and a substantial percentage of their populace destroyed, the best way to turn the Cardassian Union into a friend and ally (or at least to get them to curb their expansionist leanings and avert their inferiority complex) is to lend a helping hand rather than a kick in the ass.

Besides, a parallel can be made between what's going on in the Middle East nowadays and the post-Dominion War Cardassian Union. The United States deposed a brutal dictator in Iraq, dismantled his military, then ultimately left and most gains from that adventure have gone down the proverbial shitter. "You broke it, you buy it", to paraphrase Colin Powell. The U.S. military, and economy, would inarguably be better off had this war not been conducted in the first place. By comparison, if the UFP/Klingon Empire/Romulan Star Empire alliance had finished what the Dominion had started, conquered the Cardassian Union and then partitioned it, it would be bound to continue to administer, feed, clothe, and protect a shattered polity, at a time when a significant portion of Starfleet had been destroyed. And what of the Klingons and Romulans? If they had occupied portions of the Cardassian Union, then mistreated her conquered peoples, would the Federation step in to administer a bitch-slap in the name of freedom and liberty? No, the best shot post-Dominion War would be to leave the Cardassian Union intact, give it a helping hand, and try to remove her drive for conquest.

 

[kkt]

Kira certainly thought so when she abused poor agonizing Ghemor when he was hours away from death. I remember thinking back then ( when I saw it for the first time) what an unconscionable bitch! To see how easily she let herself be manipulated by Dukat! Revolting!

But she did come back and comfort Ghemor at the very end. If we allow Ghemor redemption for participating in the destruction of the monastery, we should allow Kira redemption for a day or so of behaving unconscionably toward Ghemor as he was approaching death.

She abandoned her own father on his death bed many years before!

No character growth there, obviously. She missed her chance at atoning for that first mistake.

She did comfort Ghemor on his deathbed. Thinking about failing her father was what made her decide to go to Ghemor. That is character growth.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

But she did come back and comfort Ghemor at the very end. If we allow Ghemor redemption for participating in the destruction of the monastery, we should allow Kira redemption for a day or so of behaving unconscionably toward Ghemor as he was approaching death.

She abandoned her own father on his death bed many years before!

No character growth there, obviously. She missed her chance at atoning for that first mistake.

She did comfort Ghemor on his deathbed. Thinking about failing her father was what made her decide to go to Ghemor. That is character growth.

She did mistreat him for a large part of that time. She didn't have the strength of character to resist Dukat's manipulations. She not only tortured that poor old man but she also cheated her fellow Bajorans of a big chunk of the information that Ghnenor could have given her, during the time she was treating him like dirt. That's some stupid actions there!!! Notice how easily Dukat got to her and made her play right into his hands. Pitiful!

 

[JD5000]

What's all this about Damar becoming a good guy? He turned traitor to the alliance with the Dominion and fought for his own people because he felt like the Cardassians were losing too much of their own strength and individuality to the Dominion. There's nothing in Damar's character history that would indicate he would push for a kinder, gentler independent Cardassia once the Dominion was repelled. I presume Cardassia would continue to enslave planetary populations and strip-mine their homes for resources under new rule - they just get to steal and plunder from whom they please, when they please.

The Federation didn't assist Damar's revolution because he was going to be some kinda Cardassian Ghandi, they only assisted because the movement undermined the Dominion, which at that point of the war was an immediate concern whereas the potential of a new Cardassian government was only going to matter if the Federation didn't lose the war.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

What's all this about Damar becoming a good guy? He turned traitor to the alliance with the Dominion and fought for his own people because he felt like the Cardassians were losing too much of their own strength and individuality to the Dominion. There's nothing in Damar's character history that would indicate he would push for a kinder, gentler independent Cardassia once the Dominion was repelled. I presume Cardassia would continue to enslave planetary populations and strip-mine their homes for resources under new rule - they just get to steal and plunder from whom they please, when they please.

I'd say his killing Russot (a representative of the "old" Cardassia) and then having his, Damar's, family killed by the Dominion was quite a proof and an eye-opener, respectively. Once he became the receiving end of the brutality and occupation, he didn't like it. I think he'd bring change to Cardassia.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

What's all this about Damar becoming a good guy? He turned traitor to the alliance with the Dominion and fought for his own people because he felt like the Cardassians were losing too much of their own strength and individuality to the Dominion. There's nothing in Damar's character history that would indicate he would push for a kinder, gentler independent Cardassia once the Dominion was repelled. I presume Cardassia would continue to enslave planetary populations and strip-mine their homes for resources under new rule - they just get to steal and plunder from whom they please, when they please.

I'd say his killing Russot (a representative of the "old" Cardassia) and then having his, Damar's, family killed by the Dominion was quite a proof and an eye-opener, respectively. Once he became the receiving end of the brutality and occupation, he didn't like it. I think he'd bring change to Cardassia.

He never got the chance though...

 

[STEPhon IT]

Why would anyone care about a weasel like Damar? He was the new version of Cardassian, stupid and reactive. Seeing him sulk at times was pure comedy for me, because there's nothing about him to root for.

Oh and JD5000, I'm still NOT ANGRY

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Why would anyone care about a weasel like Damar? He was the new version of Cardassian, stupid and reactive. Seeing him sulk at times was pure comedy for me, because there's nothing about him to root for.

Oh and JD5000, I'm still NOT ANGRY

He was shaping up to be the leader of the new Cardassia though. I really don't understand why they decided to kill him, it seems kind of psychotic, you know what we call a dissociative state, when one hand undoes what the other hand does so to speak.