cheap cheap cheap

[Therin of Andor]

I like the idea of keeping Deltans bald, myself.

Same here, but in my blog entry linked earlier, I speculate that Vonda McIntyre only gave a male Deltan hair (in her ST IV novelization) because onscreen ST II footage had already given her ST II novelization's Deltan hair, and she needed to backpedal (certainly, she would have received letters of complaint!). The only indication Vonda had, when writing her ST II novelization, that Jedda was Deltan was a script note ("Deltan cool") describing how the actor was to deliver a line. From that line, she managed to round out a Deltan scientist, give him a female partner, and an extended family in the novelization of ST IV.

But what actress will shave her head for such a part?... How this even came up, when the STAR TREK people would've known how problematic it would've been at the time, when these performers would move on to other jobs, in that condition ... the reluctance they would have.

'Cos in the 60s and 70s, almost every movie and TV actress is wearing a wig or hair extension. Wigs can be maintained for continuity much easier than an actor's own hair. Gates McFadden switched to a range of studio-supplied red wigs when she returned to TNG in Season Three, since her own fine red hair often lost its style under hot studio lighting, costing the production time and money whenever she'd be sent back to have her hair washed and reset.

Deanna Troi and William Riker were based upon Ilia and Decker of "Star Trek: Phase II". The scripts of "The Child" and "Devil's Due" give Ilia's lines to Troi. But one of the first things TNG did was reconceive the look of their resident female bridge alien. (And Roddenberry's original suggestion for Troi's Betazoid look - before the black contact lenses, hair extension and accent - was... three breasts!)

Nothing required most of the random alien extras in the movie to be their species and some of the had even greater make-up requirements

Exactly. It is always a matter of weighing up expense vs visual impact vs practicality vs requirements of script.

Was forcing John Vargas to undergo a headshave or hours in the makeup chair getting a baldcap applied (and maintained) worth the expense and time and inconvenience when the movie did not require a Deltan presence? No.

the Efrosian Federation President comes to mind

Ah, now this was a clever reuse of the Efrosian concept first seen in "ST IV: The Voyage Home". Out of all the UFP alien races to choose from, Nick Meyer selected Efrosian for the UFP President (probably) because the bumpy forehead, long hair and mustache gave him a Klingonesque visage. Here was the UFP fearing peace with the Klingons when their own president resembled a Klingon. Irony! Never mentioned in dialogue, but visually intriguing and also extending the thematic depth of the movie.

or just about every Andorian.

Exactly. If the character needs to have dialogue, the practicality of the makeup comes under scrutiny and into question. Why didn't TMP, ST IV or TNG's Andorians have any dialogue? Because it wasn't until the miniaturization of parts for making Andorian antennae "less hokey" (to use Rick Berman's term) - ie. able to move in "Enterprise" - than the original 60s TV concept.

Expense vs visual impact vs practicality vs requirements of script.

 

[Smellmet]

Of the original 6 films, I always thought TSFS looked the cheapest. The lighting and cinematography are particularly flat (though there are some beautifully dramatic images in the film too, such as Kirk supporting Bones in Spock's quarters as he calls for help). This cheapness of the live action is balanced by the incredibly beautiful special effects, though that first shot of the Enterprise after the opening credits is horrendously flat and over-lit.

The lighting on the bridge set is often flooded with colored lights (for instance, the blue cast throughout the early part of the movie) which flattens the look of that set. It feels like TV lighting, a single setup that could be used quickly with minimal changes between camera setups.

The Genesis planet looks like the soundstage set it really is. It's just another element that makes the whole film look like a TV episode (albeit with fantastic effects). Khan's dwelling in TWOK worked very well even if it was shot on a soundstage but I think that has a lot to do with the constant overlay of "sand" blasting through the image giving the whole scene a frantic, kinetic look.

Having said this, TSFS still has some of my favorite scenes and set pieces from all the original 6 films. However I never, even for a moment, can suspend my disbelief during the live action scenes because I'm always aware that I'm looking on sets on a Hollywood soundstage rather than in the 23rd century. I could suspend my disbelief on TMP and TWOK but not on TSFS.

This pretty sums up my feelings also. TSFS was on TV last night so I thought I'd give it a watch (with this thread in mind), and there's some seriously dodgy looking sets - the collapsing rock just before Kirk boots Kruge in the chops is hilariously bad, but like you said the (mostly) great effects, some good work with the ships and the cast all putting in good performances saves the day. In a way, TFF is cheap looking for same things, but just flipped the other way round - decent sets and location photography but dreadful FX.

 

[sonak]

TSFS and TFF both look like made for TV movies these days, but effects don't hold TSFS back, it's still a good one.

 

[Captrek]

I think TMP, and maybe the Star Wars franchise, may have set unrealistic expectations of how a Trek film is supposed to look. Considering that it was a 60's TV show making the move to the big screen, it looked pretty good.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Deanna Troi and William Riker were based upon Ilia and Decker of "Star Trek: Phase II". The scripts of "The Child" and "Devil's Due" give Ilia's lines to Troi. But one of the first things TNG did was reconceive the look of their resident female bridge alien. (And Roddenberry's original suggestion for Troi's Betazoid look - before the black contact lenses, hair extension and accent - was... three breasts!)

Three breasts, eh? Considering how nicely Marina was "arranged" back when her rose was in bloom, I would not have wanted to see her with a prosthetic chest, that's for certain. Glad they didn't "go there." I've always admired your vast stores of STAR TREK trivia knowledge, sir. It's most impressive. As for Decker and Ilia, it's interesting how they were almost like an Adam & Eve, both in terms of being the "Genesis" for Riker & Troi, and in terms of the actual Biblical reference. In TMP, Ilia is transformed by the thing threatening earth. She then starts dressing seductively and eventually tempts Deckard into joining her fate via V'Ger's Tree of Knowledge ... I never noticed that, before!

 

[Xaios]

I don't think I could really pick one movie to vote for. They all have their ups and downs in the production design department:

- The Motion Picture: All the exterior shots are gorgeous and hold up really well over time. The interior shots are another story altogether. They suffer more from Zeerust than any other ST film. The interior design is awash in 70s design aesthetics. Also, paradoxically, some of the special effects hold up quite nicely while some of them have aged terribly.

- The Wrath of Khan: It benefits from re-using several exterior shots of the Enterprise. Some of the SFX also hold up remarkably well, given their budget. However many interior shots also look small-scale, and the Reliant just doesn't look that great. For example, the shot in the nebula where the weapons arch is hit by a torpedo from the Enterprise, it really looks like a toy.

- The Search for Spock: The special effects remain quite good, all things considered. However, the obvious soundstage-iness of the Genesis planet sets really breaks the suspension of disbelief. Also, just as TMP wears the fact that it was made in the 70s on its sleeve, so too does this movie wear the fact that it was made in the 80s.

- The Voyage Home: Probably the most even of all the original films. Nothing stands out as being terrible, but nothing looks particularly remarkable either.

- The Final Frontier: This has the inverse problem of most earlier Star Trek films: the sets actually look quite good, but the special effects are a huge step backwards.

- The Undiscovered Country: It's obvious that set design took a step backward in this one. I think a lot of it is saved by the choice in lighting, with a lot of the cool blue hues to be found. The special effects are back to their usual strength, although they're also less predominant, considering the stretched budget. I'd say it's reminiscent of TSFS, just a bit better.

 

[Captrek]

- The Voyage Home: Probably the most even of all the original films. Nothing stands out as being terrible, but nothing looks particularly remarkable either.

I think the CG in the time travel sequence was pretty impressive by the standards of the day.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Three breasts, eh? Considering how nicely Marina was "arranged" back when her rose was in bloom, I would not have wanted to see her with a prosthetic chest, that's for certain. Glad they didn't "go there."

DC Fontana reportedly asked Roddenberry, "Were you thinking a vertical or horizontal arrangement?" [paraphrasing]

As for Ilia's seductive robe, this was actually selected for her by Kirk when the Probe materialized, hot and naked, in the sonic shower.

 

[horatio83]

GEN. I like the movie but cannot stand the intense lighting of sets of the D as it feels like a cheap trick to make something more out of TV sets.

 

[PCz911]

have not watched The Motion Picture since Collins' crimes became public, but that movie has such great production value. The biggest and best names in Science Fiction Art & Design worked on that and much of it still holds up, to this day. TMP is just awash with Eye Candy. But many of the pre STAR TREK '09 movies, regardless of cheap sets, or not, have great cinematography. Particularly The Search for Spock and Generations.

holy cow, had to google up Collins to find out what your comment was about. I never like the character of decker, either one now that I think about it.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Deanna Troi and William Riker were based upon Ilia and Decker of "Star Trek: Phase II". The scripts of "The Child" and "Devil's Due" give Ilia's lines to Troi. But one of the first things TNG did was reconceive the look of their resident female bridge alien. (And Roddenberry's original suggestion for Troi's Betazoid look - before the black contact lenses, hair extension and accent - was... three breasts!)

Three breasts, eh?

I believe the not-a-Caitian in TFF had three breasts, no? I think it's kind of a silly idea myself. Breasts are just breasts. Adding a third as if to say, "Look! She's an alien because more boobs!" seems kind of puerile on Roddenberry's part--The Vision be damned.

As far as Troi with three breasts, wasn't Crosby going to play her originally? So maybe the idea was intended for her.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I believe the not-a-Caitian in TFF had three breasts, no?

Yep. A "cat dancer" who looks like a cat and then is drowned in a "pool" table. Pure Shatner humour. He pulled out lots of Roddenberry schtick to get him to like ST V, including a triple-breasted alien.

As far as Troi with three breasts, wasn't Crosby going to play her originally? So maybe the idea was intended for her.

They'd already done the switch of actresses. "Macha Hernandez" was inspired by Jenette Goldstein's Vasquez in "Aliens", so they were casting short brunettes (eg. Sirtis) for Security Chief. The original concept for the alien Troi was fair and willowy (hence Crosby), but when Denise Crosby won the security chief role instead, they needed a name for Macha that suited her look (ie. Tasha Yar).

Incidentally, in "In Thy Image" (pre-TMP), Tasha was originally the name given to the pearlescent Probe (by Chekov) which eventually steals Ilia and adopts her form.

 

[Smellmet]

GEN. I like the movie but cannot stand the intense lighting of sets of the D as it feels like a cheap trick to make something more out of TV sets.

I think that's one of the films achievements to be honest, I think it gives it a big screen cinematic feel.

 

[Orphalesion]

holy cow, had to google up Collins to find out what your comment was about. I never like the character of decker, either one now that I think about it.

Me too....damn....Decker and Illia have always been the only two characters in that movie I liked, if only because they were proto-Riker and proto-Troi.

Now its down to Illia....who after like one scene gets basically violated and eaten by V'ger and then replaced by a "sexy" robot slave whom the other characters proclaim to be "pretty much the same thing" as the real person who died. Man that movie is terrible

 

[CorporalClegg]

I miss Persis.

 

[Smellmet]

- The Motion Picture: The interior shots are another story altogether. They suffer more from Zeerust than any other ST film. The interior design is awash in 70s design aesthetics. Also, paradoxically, some of the special effects hold up quite nicely while some of them have aged terribly.

I think the interior shots in TMP look excellent - yes there's some 70's stuff going on but I think they hold up extremely well, engineering in particular never looked as good as it did in this movie, the whole ship had a feeling of finely balanced technology that took the combined efforts of the crew to make work. TMP, for me was the most lavish, expensive-looking Star Trek production right up to ST09.

 

[PCz911]

holy cow, had to google up Collins to find out what your comment was about. I never like the character of decker, either one now that I think about it.

Me too....damn....Decker and Illia have always been the only two characters in that movie I liked, if only because they were proto-Riker and proto-Troi.

Now its down to Illia....who after like one scene gets basically violated and eaten by V'ger and then replaced by a "sexy" robot slave whom the other characters proclaim to be "pretty much the same thing" as the real person who died. Man that movie is terrible

I never thought of it that way....but now that you said it, you're totally right!

"oh look, our navigator is gone. Oh wait, now she's back as a sexy robot. Excellent! So much better than my inflatable doll". Oh, thats sort of creepy.

 

[Maurice]

What movie were you guys watching? No one reacts to the Ilia Probe was "sexy".

 

[Orphalesion]

No, no I wrote the others concluded the Probe to be "pretty much the same thing" as the real Illia, to the point that Kirk lists her as "missing in action" instead of killed and I found that mildly unsettling. In my book a clone is not the same person as te original even if they atrifically gain all the original's memories. And, to be fair Decker does continue to try to bone the Probe, wasn't that his reason for merging with V'ger?

The "sexy" in my post was meant to allude to the way the Probe is set in scene, Illia was already sexualized. The Probe gets put into a, ridiculously short, bathrobe for the rest of the film, has a glowing orb on its chest and I can't help but feeling some people would eleven find its emotionless behavior and robotic voice to be somehow alluring.

 

[BillJ]

I believe the not-a-Caitian in TFF had three breasts, no? I think it's kind of a silly idea myself. Breasts are just breasts. Adding a third as if to say, "Look! She's an alien because more boobs!" seems kind of puerile on Roddenberry's part--The Vision be damned.

Three-breasted women are the most important tenet of the Roddenberry vision.