In universe explanation for Prime Directive violation in Nemesis

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The question of whether they were indigenous is a good one. If it was not explained, that should still be the default assumption. Otherwise, it's just a fan rationalization for bad writing. I'll have to go watch the movie through that scene...

If those aliens were some kind of space pirates, then they would have had starship technology, and they didn't look like they had any. They would have gone after the Argo with it if they had. So I can only assume those aliens were indeed Kolarans and they were native to the planet. They looked too primitive not to be.

 

[JWPlatt]

Ok, I viewed this mockery of the Prime Directive:

Picard: What do we know about the population?
Data: Isolated pockets of humanoids. It appears to be a pre-warp civilization at an early stage of industrial development.

Summary: When the landing party encountered the attacking force, there was no statement of surprise such as "They aren't from this planet!" or "Where did they come from?!" Nor was there any other such discussion or speculation once back aboard the Enterprise. All evidence supports the premise that the attacking force was indigenous.

Verdict & Sentence: Blatantly guilty of the wanton violation of the Prime Directive against a pre-warp civilization during the trivial pursuit of a thrilling joyride using Federation property. Because captains would rather die than violate the Prime Directive, Captain Picard is hereby sentenced to death.

 

[Christopher]

^Again, I still say that it would've been a greater Prime Directive violation if they hadn't fled, if they'd been captured and the Kolarans had ended up with absolute proof of alien life. As it is, they just have a tall tale and a UFO sighting.

 

[Dukhat]

But JWPlatt makes a good point. Technically, Picard and company should not have gone down to that planet at all, based solely on the possibility that they'd run into members of that pre-warp civilization. Or at least they should have used some type of duck-blind cloak like in Insurrection, but apparently they conveniently forgot they had that technology.

 

[Marsden]

Isolated pockets of humanoids. It appears to be a pre-warp civilization at an early stage of industrial development.

They were supposed to be early industrial with those dune buggys and disruptors?

I'm not arguing your point, just seeking clarification. I admit I only watched the movie once and I was thinking of Thunderdome, or beyond it, through most of this sequence, but they seemed much higher tech to me. Space flight not apparent, of course, but not what I'd call early industrial unless early industrial to Data's point of refrence is 22nd century tech on Earth.

 

[Christopher]

^Remember how the TNG cast referred to the Old West as the "Ancient West?" They don't use the same reference points we do. By their standards, anything pre-Space Age would be "early industrial."

 

[DWF]

But JWPlatt makes a good point. Technically, Picard and company should not have gone down to that planet at all, based solely on the possibility that they'd run into members of that pre-warp civilization. Or at least they should have used some type of duck-blind cloak like in Insurrection, but apparently they conveniently forgot they had that technology.

Picard, Data and Worf weren't attacked until after they had collected all of B4, I'm sure that Shinzon made sure they attack them to make things appear harder than it actually was. Picard even remarks that it was too easy finding B4's body parts, as though he knew they were planted there to be found.

 

[Vger23]

This is why Nemesis is awesome!

 

[mahler]

Nemesis>These are the Yoyages

 

[Enterprise1701]

Didn't the Enterprise-E crew specifically say in the movie that the Kolarans couldn't have possibly developed positronic technology on their own? And that positronic technology was thus far in history a Federation technology? So wouldn't it have been in Starfleet's spirit to remove the potential contaminant, and a contaminant of possible Federation origin at that?

 

[JWPlatt]

Didn't the Enterprise-E crew specifically say in the movie that the Kolarans couldn't have possibly developed positronic technology on their own? And that positronic technology was thus far in history a Federation technology? So wouldn't it have been in Starfleet's spirit to remove the potential contaminant, and a contaminant of possible Federation origin at that?

That would be a very reasonable discussion to have about fixing the contamination. But there is no such discussion in the script, and Picard's joyride was clearly foremost in his thoughts besides a more simple curiosity about a positronic signature.

 

[Dukhat]

Picard, Data and Worf weren't attacked until after they had collected all of B4, I'm sure that Shinzon made sure they attack them to make things appear harder than it actually was. Picard even remarks that it was too easy finding B4's body parts, as though he knew they were planted there to be found.

But that's assuming that the Kolarans were working for Shinzon, of which there's no clear evidence in the movie that that was the case.

Didn't the Enterprise-E crew specifically say in the movie that the Kolarans couldn't have possibly developed positronic technology on their own? And that positronic technology was thus far in history a Federation technology? So wouldn't it have been in Starfleet's spirit to remove the potential contaminant, and a contaminant of possible Federation origin at that?

I don't remember what they said, but only believing that positronic technology was just a Federation thing is a flawed way of thinking. So no one else could have developed that technology other than the Federation? Even if the Kolarans weren't responsible, it's not Starfleet's job to remove contaminants that they themselves did not create.

 

[Marsden]

I don't remember what they said, but only believing that positronic technology was just a Federation thing is a flawed way of thinking. So no one else could have developed that technology other than the Federation? Even if the Kolarans weren't responsible, it's not Starfleet's job to remove contaminants that they themselves did not create.

I added the emphasis to your quote, to show how deeply flawed the Prime Directive became in the 24th century, IMO.

I understand Starfleet shouldn't interfere with developing cultures, but no one else is restricted so no matter what the level of the indigenous culture, contamination by a third party seems to make the whole thing worthless.

In point of the Kolarans, they were near Romulans space, but whose space were they in? And if Romulans (or Ferengi even) had traded with them and sold them disruptors and other tech, would the Prime Directive still apply?

 

[Dukhat]

I understand Starfleet shouldn't interfere with developing cultures, but no one else is restricted so no matter what the level of the indigenous culture, contamination by a third party seems to make the whole thing worthless.

Well, that's like saying that you originally weren't going to kill people, but since other people kill people, then you might as well kill people too.

In point of the Kolarans, they were near Romulans space, but whose space were they in? And if Romulans (or Ferengi even) had traded with them and sold them disruptors and other tech, would the Prime Directive still apply?

I would think that if the pre-warp culture knew about extraterrestrials and had dealings with them, then it wouldn't be a Prime Directive violation to interact with them, as long as you weren't giving them any of your own technology. That kind of thing happened all the time in Star Trek (although Kirk giving Tyree's people guns just because the Klingons did was indeed a gross violation of the Prime Directive, IMHO.)

 

[Marsden]

Well, that's like saying that you originally weren't going to kill people, but since other people kill people, then you might as well kill people too.

No, it's like saying if another space empire is exploiting the natives is foolish to sit by and do nothing to help them.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, that's like saying that you originally weren't going to kill people, but since other people kill people, then you might as well kill people too.

No, it's like saying if another space empire is exploiting the natives is foolish to sit by and do nothing to help them.

I understand what you're saying, but as with my example of Tyree's people, what Kirk did could potentially cause those people to completely annihilate themselves. Where does the Federation draw the line with "helping" exploited peoples?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ In Tyree's case, half of the natives of his planet already had guns. There's no way Kirk could have taken them away. So the damage was already done.

 

[Dukhat]

^ In Tyree's case, half of the natives of his planet already had guns. There's no way Kirk could have taken them away. So the damage was already done.

But that wasn't the point. The whole reason why half the natives had guns was because the Klingons gave them to them. According to the PD (at least my interpretation of it), the Federation should have done nothing. It's not their fault that the Klingons contaminated Tyree's people, and they were not obligated to do anything about it because Tyree's people were not members of the Federation. Instead Kirk supplied Tyree's tribe with guns to make the playing field even, but that was a violation of the PD. Now that both sides had guns, it could have caused both sides to destroy each other instead of only one side destroying the other. The Klingon's actions were wrong according to the Federation's beliefs, but Kirk's action was just as wrong if not more so.

It's basically the same thing as what happened in TNG's "Too Short A Season." Mark Jameson supplied the Mordan people with weapons which caused both sides to almost annihilate themselves.

 

[JWPlatt]

Now that both sides had guns, it could have caused both sides to destroy each other instead of only one side destroying the other.

Yep. Dukhat is right on this one.

 

[Christopher]

But that wasn't the point. The whole reason why half the natives had guns was because the Klingons gave them to them. According to the PD (at least my interpretation of it), the Federation should have done nothing. It's not their fault that the Klingons contaminated Tyree's people, and they were not obligated to do anything about it because Tyree's people were not members of the Federation.

Good grief, it's not about whether it's their fault. It's not like they're afraid of a lawsuit and trying to cover their asses. Kirk's concern was for Tyree's people, not his own. The Prime Directive, as it was interpreted in the TOS era, was about protecting other cultures' right to free choice and self-determination. And that meant that the Federation couldn't impose its own values and laws on another society, true, but it also meant that they could intervene to prevent someone else from doing so. If the society was already being interfered with by aliens, then it was justifiable to interfere in order to cancel out that interference. At least, that's how Kirk interpreted it.

If the Klingons had been left to their own devices, they would've used the villagers to conquer the planet and then get themselves invited in as its rulers, and ultimately the whole species would've been under alien subjugation. The idea was that arming the Hill People created a level playing field and prevented the Klingon sympathizers from conquering the whole planet. Which was the only way Kirk could see to stop the Klingons from subjugating the world, short of open war with the Empire.

Now that both sides had guns, it could have caused both sides to destroy each other instead of only one side destroying the other.

Is that realistic? We've had guns for centuries, but it's never led two warring cultures to totally destroy each other. We came close in WWII and occasionally during the Cold War, but even then, we had alternative methods such as diplomacy and international law to create checks on unfettered warfare.

If one side has superior firepower, it can run roughshod over its enemies, but if it loses its advantage, that gives it a reason to hold back, to avoid attacking for fear of being attacked itself. Kirk's intent was to create a deterrent by ensuring that neither side ever had a clear advantage in firepower. A balance of terror, like that which prevented us from launching a nuclear war during the arms race. (The reason the Romulan episode was called "Balance of Terror," presumably, was because the development of the cloaking device and plasma weapon by one side threatened to overturn that balance and lead to war.) There would be armed conflict, yes, but neither side would be stronger than the other, so both sides would survive.