• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

In universe explanation for Prime Directive violation in Nemesis

The discussion involves mortality as part of being human, IIRC, and thus informs Data's decision to sacrifice his life for Picard, making it feel less arbitrary.
It still seems a very obscure and unlikely connection to me. Oh well.

But it's what the screenwriter intended the scene to do.


Regarding the Kolarus chase, the argument that it's unnecessary is weak IMO. All sorts of things are unnecessary - the wedding for instance is not essential to the plot. In fact, you could cut the movie down to a two minute sequence and still get all the important plot information.
You're very wrong here, because plot is absolutely not the only thing that's necessary to a story. Stories are about characters, not just events. What's necessary is what serves the characters, their choices, their relationships, and their emotions. Plot is the result of characters' choices in pursuit of their goals.

The wedding was important to the film in many ways, even aside from the fact that it brought a resolution to the Riker-Troi arc that had been simmering since "Encounter at Farpoint" and brought to the fore again in Insurrection. The fact that Riker and Troi were leaving the nest and starting a family of their own resonated with Picard's longing for family, and that informed his interactions with Shinzon, whom he related to as a surrogate son of sorts and tried to offer guidance to. And the fact that Riker and Troi were moving on with their lives tied into the movie's themes about personal change and growth, about the importance of moving forward rather than stagnating.

But the dune buggy chase was not put there to serve character. If anything, it undermined character, because it's led to decades of fan complaints that Picard was out of character in his cavalier attitude toward the Prime Directive. Remember English class? Plot, setting, character, and theme are the four basic elements of storytelling. Some sources also include conflict, though I'd call that part of the plot. We've already eliminated character. The chase scene doesn't serve the plot, because it's totally forgotten once they're back on board. It doesn't serve theme, because it's just chasing and shooting. It doesn't serve setting, because its desert setting exists only as an excuse for a dune-buggy chase and is never seen again after that one sequence. And it doesn't serve the film's overall conflict, because the superficial conflict that does exist in the scene (the shooting and chasing) has no relevance to anything else in the movie.

So there is literally no story reason for the scene to be there. It was tacked on as a lazy excuse for an action scene. Now, I can live with the attitude that big-budget sci-fi movies need action, because that's what audiences expect. But there must have been a way to craft an action scene that served some greater purpose than just meeting some arbitrary quota for action scenes.

For instance, do the whole sequence differently -- have Data learn that he has a "brother" somewhere and have him put himself at great personal risk to liberate B-4 from his captors. That way, the action serves character because it shows how much it matters to Data to have a brother; it's an actual obstacle to his goal of finding his brother, rather than an afterthought tacked on after he's already found him. And it serves the plot because Data's determination to save B-4 underlines the difficulty of his later decision to shut down B-4. Also, maybe the captors could be Romulans, and after B-4 has been liberated and those Romulans are chasing him, the Scimitar shows up and fights them off, and then the Viceroy informs Picard and Data that those Romulans worked for the old regime that Shinzon's now overthrown -- and that leads to the invitation to Romulus and gives Shinzon some bona fides.

That way, you get the obligatory action sequence in Act I, but in a way that's organic and purposeful to the story, a way that serves character and advances the plot. Instead, they took the laziest possible path and stuck in an action scene that merely interrupts the story and has no connection to anything else in it. It was badly done. There's no way around that, because it would've been so easy to do it better. I mean, it took me less than a minute to think up a better way to do it, a way that would contribute meaningfully to the plot and characterization. So why couldn't they?

(Okay, they couldn't because Patrick Stewart wanted an excuse to drive around in a dune buggy and he had enough clout to make it happen. But that just underlines the gratuitousness of it.)
 
But Picard's statement would be justified anyway once it's revealed that Shinzon put B4 on the planet for Picard to find.

Exactly. So the plot needs an element that de-justifies the very sensible doubt that Picard expresses, allowing B-4 to proceed with his traitorous efforts. An action sequence is just about the only thing that could stop Picard and the audience from thinking these things through.

Why make it more difficult by adding the Kolarans?

If it were easy, it would be too easy - Picard might stay behind to investigate. But he has to move on, along his now-predictable course, so that he will be the one who answers the well-timed summons to Romulus.

Because they were shooting at them, it would have been a possibility that they could have hit Picard and killed him, and then where would Shinzon be?

Yet we see that they were good enough shots to completely miss Picard. The odds of that happening if they were poor shots are near-zero, considering the nature of the weapons used.

If they were really working for Shinzon, then why didn't they just capture Picard right then and there and deliver him to Shinzon so he could take his blood? Then there would have been no need for B4 in the first place or the Enterprise's trip to Romulus.

Getting Picard's blood was way down Shinzon's list of priorities. For some extremely poorly explained reason, Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth. And for that, he needed B-4 aboard Picard's vessel - the only place where said android could gain access to Starfleet secrets.

What Shinzon does in preparation for his great moment makes sense for somebody who has recently gained access to all the cloak-and-dagger resources of the Romulan Star Empire and wants to play with them to the max. Why Shinzon does it, and why he fumbles everything when the moment comes, is never satisfactorily established, though. Did he just go bonkers in the mines and for that reason couldn't keep his priorities straight, despite having an as such workable plan? Or did the forced aging problem make him senile in the days preceding his death? Or was he defeated because he fell head over heels for Deanna Troi?

Many of the weaknesses in the movie stem from a weak villain. To be an effective mirror for Picard, Shinzon should have been more tragic, not more despicable (as the whole let's-rape-Deanna-while-we-don't-have-the-time thing tried to make him). And his plan and obsession should have stemmed from his tragedy, rather than being weakly pasted atop it. Yet he should definitely be established as a resourceful mastermind who puts Picard through all sorts of hoops just because he can - and in that role, the car chase serves more than admirably!

Timo Saloniemi
 
The dune buggy chase was a foreshadow of Picard and Data's escape from the Scimitar later in the film. And the movies had established Picard as more of an action figure, so I don't think it was out of character for him to engage in unsafe velocities. I also thin that Paramount wanted more of an action movie hence the cut scenes, which would've turned it into a more emotional film.
 
Well you don't really expect them to remember what they learnt in the first class on the PD. How to remain unnoticed whilst visting pre-warp cultures.
 
...I don't think it was out of character for him to engage in unsafe velocities.
His velocity isn't the issue. Do you think it was out of character for him to wantonly engage in teenage beach driving antics among a pre-warp civilization?
 
Last edited:
Well, what would have been the better approach? Flying from spot to spot in a shuttle? This might have made for lesser dust clouds to alert the locals (who weren't supposed to be there!), but then again, it might not.

Transporters were out, which is common enough in Trek and something our heroes would be used to. It's a valid excuse for using vehicles (rolling, flying or otherwise), and it's a valid excuse for having a thrilling chase rather than an instantaneous evacuation. Sure, our heroes could have waited out the transporter-jamming ion storm, but there didn't seem to be any need to be that cautious; the need to get to the Troi wedding in time would have outweighed such minor concerns.

What our heroes did in order to collect the B-4 parts was in line with how Starfleet heroes always do things. Whether Picard's attitude towards driving was characteristic or uncharacteristic is a separate question. But this is the man who loves the rugged outdoors and especially riding, even if the TNG references to his equestrian hobby misled us into thinking he preferred more sedate journeys.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Dude, lighten up a little, I was just joking.
Dude, where was I heavy?

Hey, you do have a sense of humor.

So the plot needs an element that de-justifies the very sensible doubt that Picard expresses, allowing B-4 to proceed with his traitorous efforts. An action sequence is just about the only thing that could stop Picard and the audience from thinking these things through.

The whole point of finding out that B4 was just a plant by Shinzon later in the movie justifies Picard's feeling of doubt. An action sequence isn't necessary for this.

If it were easy, it would be too easy - Picard might stay behind to investigate. But he has to move on, along his now-predictable course, so that he will be the one who answers the well-timed summons to Romulus.
What would there be to investigate?

Yet we see that they were good enough shots to completely miss Picard.
That's arbitrary. They could have missed him, or they could have hit him. They could also have caused his jeep to flip over during the chase, or miss the shuttle and plummet to their deaths in the cavern below. Either way, they were putting him in a position where his life was at risk for no reason whatsoever.

Getting Picard's blood was way down Shinzon's list of priorities. For some extremely poorly explained reason, Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth. And for that, he needed B-4 aboard Picard's vessel - the only place where said android could gain access to Starfleet secrets.

What Shinzon does in preparation for his great moment makes sense for somebody who has recently gained access to all the cloak-and-dagger resources of the Romulan Star Empire and wants to play with them to the max. Why Shinzon does it, and why he fumbles everything when the moment comes, is never satisfactorily established, though. Did he just go bonkers in the mines and for that reason couldn't keep his priorities straight, despite having an as such workable plan? Or did the forced aging problem make him senile in the days preceding his death? Or was he defeated because he fell head over heels for Deanna Troi?

Many of the weaknesses in the movie stem from a weak villain. To be an effective mirror for Picard, Shinzon should have been more tragic, not more despicable (as the whole let's-rape-Deanna-while-we-don't-have-the-time thing tried to make him). And his plan and obsession should have stemmed from his tragedy, rather than being weakly pasted atop it. Yet he should definitely be established as a resourceful mastermind who puts Picard through all sorts of hoops just because he can - and in that role, the car chase serves more than admirably!
Well, now we're moving into the realm of why this movie makes no sense in a general analysis, not why Picard chose to break the Prime Directive per the OP's thread starter.
 
Last edited:
The whole point of finding out that B4 was just a plant by Shinzon later in the movie justifies Picard's feeling of doubt. An action sequence isn't necessary for this.

I never said Picard's doubt needed justifying. It needed de-justifying, because if Picard didn't stop acting rationally, Shinzon's plan would fail. And the villain getting the hero to stop acting rationally is standard fare for thrillers, action movies and basic whodunnits, not just for romantic comedies.

What would there be to investigate?

Well, everything. The android parts had been buried there by somebody. TNG era forensics are embarrassingly good - as per "Hero Worship", they would be able to spot traces of Romulan transporter activity, for example. What they now have is a mystery that will never be solved through forensics; who knows, perhaps Soong himself disposed of this android? What they would have after even a cursory waving about of tricorders in situ would be a devious Romulan plot. And when Romulans come calling right after that...

That's arbitrary. They could have missed him, or they could have hit him.

Well, no. They scored zero hits, which takes a lot of doing. With that amount of lead (?) and explosives pumped into the air, and none of it making any sort of contact, they must have been aiming to miss with extreme margin.

(Seems Worf struggled to miss, too. Apparently, his gun didn't have a stun setting, so the next best thing was toppling of enemy vehicles; direct hits were clearly not allowed.)

Either way, they were putting him in a position where his life was at risk for no reason whatsoever.

If his life hadn't been at seeming risk, he would have uncovered enough evidence not to let B-4 roam his ship, despite Data and his relatives being his known weak spot. Plus it's a significant timing cue for the one part of the plan that called for timing.

There were dozens of other ways the Kolarans could have pulled their punches if it seemed Picard wasn't going to make it otherwise. They seem to know their trade well enough, and what they wouldn't know of their opponent, Shinzon could have told them.

Well, now we're moving into the realm of why this movie makes no sense in a general analysis, not why Picard chose to break the Prime Directive per the OP's thread starter.

Yup, and that's a completely separate issue. The original question has been amply answered: every hero skipper in Star Trek has acted in like manner, with like consequences, and this has never been considered a PD violation as such.

However, making Picard feel he fumbled the Kolaran job would be good psychological preparation for him facing Shinzon later on... :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
[I never said Picard's doubt needed justifying. It needed de-justifying, because if Picard didn't stop acting rationally, Shinzon's plan would fail.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying now. The car chase was a distraction, gotcha. However, the distraction was completely arbitrary if the Kolarans weren't working for Shinzon; i.e. it was also possible that the Kolarans wouldn't have attacked Picard at all, thereby giving Picard ample time to analyze the situation. It was just luck on Shinzon's part that the Kolarans attacked when they did.

Well, no. They scored zero hits, which takes a lot of doing. With that amount of lead (?) and explosives pumped into the air, and none of it making any sort of contact, they must have been aiming to miss with extreme margin...

...If his life hadn't been at seeming risk, he would have uncovered enough evidence not to let B-4 roam his ship, despite Data and his relatives being his known weak spot. Plus it's a significant timing cue for the one part of the plan that called for timing...

...There were dozens of other ways the Kolarans could have pulled their punches if it seemed Picard wasn't going to make it otherwise. They seem to know their trade well enough, and what they wouldn't know of their opponent, Shinzon could have told them.
You conveniently left out the part of my quote where I stated that Picard could have been killed in any number of other ways during that car chase, not just by getting shot at. That's assuming of course that the Kolarans were working for Shinzon, which would mean that they were the stupidest lackeys he could have employed.

I prefer to believe that they had nothing to do with Shinzon's plan, if only because for them to deliberately put Picard's life in danger makes no sense whatsoever. Of course this also brings up the point of why Shinzon would hide B4 on a planet where there were hostile natives that could endanger Picard's life. You (the movie writers) mean to tell me that there was no uninhabited moon or some such that would have worked a million times better?
 
Last edited:
Sounds like 1980s TV gun fighting to me. No one can hit anything unless it is nonlethal. Then they are super accurate, reguardless of platform.
 
Oh, I see a definite plot function to the fight. Picard says "This doesn't feel right", and then they cut to him wantonly assembling B-4? Now that wouldn't feel right. Both Picard and the audience need to be distracted from pondering the coincidences involved in this discovery.

Also, somebody has to tell Shinzon that Picard has found the android, and counting on the android itself doing that wouldn't work too well. If Shinzon's "open" invitation that results in the summoning of "the nearest starship" goes out at the wrong moment, all is lost; he has to have agents down on Kolarus III to provide him with the necessary timing cues so that a) the "random" captain will be Picard and b) he will already have B-4 aboard.

Timo Saloniemi

Not really surely all Shinzon had to do was request that the Federation send Picard. A request the Federation was likely to aquiesce to.
 
Picard must have been fairly close to TNZ anyway in order to "accidentally" detect the positronic emissions coming from the Kolaron system. Or do was the signal supposed to be crossing hundreds of light years but only pointing at the E-E?
 
Yes, I remembered that after I posted. Which makes it even weirder that the E-E should be the one to detect the distant positronic signal. They were on route from Earth to Betazed, presumably in the heart of the Federation.
This sort of apparent close proximity of everything reminds me of that "small Federation" thread that was running a few months back. How else can one make sense of these events?
 
Well first of all, if Shinzon had possession of an exact copy of Data that he could control, then all he had to do was sneak B4 onto the Enterprise once it reached Romulus. There was no reason why he had to hide B4 in parts on some hostile planet for Picard to find. What if Picard had decided not to assemble B4? Android parts lying around certainly would have put a damper on Shinzon's plan...
 
Can anybody please provide a credible in universe explanation as to why Picard ignored the prime directive with the whole Argo Dune Buggy Chase? This just seems so out of character and really gets in the way of enjoying this movie. Thanks in advance for your ideas.:vulcan:


...I don't think it was out of character for him to engage in unsafe velocities.
His velocity isn't the issue. Do you think it was out of character for him to wantonly engage in teenage beach driving antics among a pre-warp civilization?

I was just wondering, what civilization was out there? All I saw was an empty desert. What Prime Directive covers that?

Those guys that showed up to interfere with the recovery mission, were they native to that planet? I missed that they any way stated that they belonged there, I always assumed they were some kind of space pirates that were hiding out in said empty desert, possibly as a base for their operation. They sure didn't seem like a low tech group with their advanced machine and disruptors.

Ignoring the Prime Directive would be out of character for Picard, but the Prime Directive didn't apply. It's never applied to uninhabited planets before, or uninhabited streches of planets.
 
The question of whether they were indigenous is a good one. If it was not explained, that should still be the default assumption. Otherwise, it's just a fan rationalization for bad writing. I'll have to go watch the movie through that scene...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top