In universe explanation for Prime Directive violation in Nemesis

[Timo]

Oh, I see a definite plot function to the fight. Picard says "This doesn't feel right", and then they cut to him wantonly assembling B-4? Now that wouldn't feel right. Both Picard and the audience need to be distracted from pondering the coincidences involved in this discovery.

Also, somebody has to tell Shinzon that Picard has found the android, and counting on the android itself doing that wouldn't work too well. If Shinzon's "open" invitation that results in the summoning of "the nearest starship" goes out at the wrong moment, all is lost; he has to have agents down on Kolarus III to provide him with the necessary timing cues so that a) the "random" captain will be Picard and b) he will already have B-4 aboard.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Indeed, there was a fan-edit released which did precisely that (amongst a few other things).

Does it restore the Picard/Data ready-room scene from after the wedding reception? That scene was pretty vital to Data's arc in the rest of the movie, but it was cut out for the sake of "pacing." My ideal edit would restore that scene (or at least the latter half or so of it) and skip the entire buggy chase. I'm mostly comfortable with the rest of the film as it is.

 

[Lance]

I must admit, having seen a couple of people talk about it in this thread, I am beginning to buy into this theory that the Kolarun's aren't as societally deficient as we/the Enterprise crew assume, and that they were in fact in on Shinzon's scheme.

There is something very specific about the way they react with almost nonchalance when the Argo eventually goes airbourne in front of them.

Any which way, chances are that it isn't as much of a prime directive violation as many fans have assumed over the years.

 

[Timo]

We should remember that TOS defined Star Trek as a protracted attempt to violate the Prime Directive - it's the heroes' very mission to poke their noses everywhere, especially on worlds that resemble Earth at key moments of its history.

The PD is a cool idea, but in every valid interpretation it has to come second to our heroes' need to explore. Generally, this means treating the strictest applications of the Directive as overcautious, and deciding that the less strict ones still suffice in meeting the general aims and goals of the Directive. It makes Kirk a hypocrite for accusing Ron Tracey of wrongdoing, but it clears the names of Picard and his ilk...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JWPlatt]

Can anybody please provide a credible in universe explanation as to why Picard ignored the prime directive with the whole Argo Dune Buggy Chase?

You can't, because there is none. The script should never be dignified with such an answer. The scene was written in total ignorance of Star Trek. There are times when you just have to turn your head and admit that something is fiction, without basis in reality, and undeserving of canon. It didn't happen. Move along, move along.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is something very specific about the way they react with almost nonchalance when the Argo eventually goes airbourne in front of them.

Exactly. Look at the way the Kolaran soldier sort of smirks when he takes off his glasses. It's definitely an "excellent..." kind of look. The Kolarans had to have been in on it - I'm more convinced now than ever before.

Most likely, Shinzon approached them and offered them advanced technology in exchange for letting him plant B-4 on the planet. The Kolarans get the tech, Shinzon gets Picard, and both sides win.

 

[Smellmet]

The Kolarans do not, in fact, look like Remans:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Kolaran.jpg

Their head shape is sort of a cross between a Ferengi and the front half of a DY-100-class ship.

They are not a million miles off though. No more different to Romulans v Vulcans

My theory is simple. They were merely defending themselves. Getting captured would have been worse.

 

[Mytran]

Oh, I see a definite plot function to the fight. Picard says "This doesn't feel right", and then they cut to him wantonly assembling B-4? Now that wouldn't feel right. Both Picard and the audience need to be distracted from pondering the coincidences involved in this discovery.

That's less of a function related to the plot and more of a sticking plaster required to patch up a script unreasonably reliant on coincidences and poor character judgement to make it work.

Does it restore the Picard/Data ready-room scene from after the wedding reception? That scene was pretty vital to Data's arc in the rest of the movie, but it was cut out for the sake of "pacing." My ideal edit would restore that scene (or at least the latter half or so of it) and skip the entire buggy chase. I'm mostly comfortable with the rest of the film as it is.

Well then maybe this cut is not for you as the running time has been reduced to 78 minutes!

Sadly though, the scene you mentioned with Picard and Data has not been included which is a big loss, as I agree with your opinion that it is a very important to both characters' arcs in the story. I think this particular Fanediter was more concerned with pacing issues though. I'd love to provide a link, but Fanedit.org doesn't seem to have it hosted any more.

 

[doubleohfive]

For what it's worth, the shooting draft for Nemesis dated 9/12/2001 just lists the people chasing Picard, Worf, Data and B-4 (named in the script at this point, as "Head") simply as "a nomadic tribe of desert ALIENS" -- and not specifically as Kolarans or Remans, despite how much or how little, comparitively speaking, they do resemble the Remans we see later on:

There's also a great little moment at the end of the chase scene, after the Argo lands in the shuttle, where Picard exits the vehicle, dusts off the hood of the jeep and heads off to the cockpit of the shuttle. Worf then muses to Data, "He must have Klingon blood."

Kinda sorry they didn't include that bit.

 

[Christopher]

The Kolarans do not, in fact, look like Remans:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Kolaran.jpg

Their head shape is sort of a cross between a Ferengi and the front half of a DY-100-class ship.

They are not a million miles off though. No more different to Romulans v Vulcans

No, they're enormously different from Remans. The eyes and nostrils are maybe slightly similar, but everything else is quite different. Reman heads have a very skull-like quality, right down to visible markings that resemble the sutures ("seams") between skull bones. They're basically skulls with pointed ears and fangs, a lot like Count Orloff in Nosferatu. Kolarans are nothing like that. They have scaly, reptilian hides, elaborate plates and ridges on their heads, pronounced side bulges rather than mammalian ears, and sort of a bulldog-like mouth shape. The last screencap on this page gives an excellent side view. (Here's the direct link, which may or may not work from here.) They're more reminiscent of Michael Westmore's other reptilian species designs -- really nothing like the Remans.

 

[eyeresist]

Can anybody please provide a credible in universe explanation as to why Picard ignored the prime directive with the whole Argo Dune Buggy Chase?

You can't, because there is none. The script should never be dignified with such an answer. The scene was written in total ignorance of Star Trek. There are times when you just have to turn your head and admit that something is fiction, without basis in reality, and undeserving of canon. It didn't happen. Move along, move along.

Because Star Trek is reality
We get it, you hate Nemesis. Move along, indeed.

The complaints about this scene seem petty, like complaining Star Trek is in colour, or has music. We're not talking about Michael Bay here - it's a very brief sequence of some fast driving in a desert, then on with the plot.


I've recently watched the deleted scenes, and with one exception they were redundant, or annoying, so justly removed. The exception is Spot adopting Worf. <3

 

[Christopher]

The complaints about this scene seem petty, like complaining Star Trek is in colour, or has music. We're not talking about Michael Bay here - it's a very brief sequence of some fast driving in a desert, then on with the plot.

But it's a sequence that doesn't contribute to the plot, that's only there because the filmmakers felt they needed an action scene, couldn't come up with a good reason to have one there, and didn't care that there was no reason. It's just so arbitrary and gratuitous that it's an embarrassment.

I've recently watched the deleted scenes, and with one exception they were redundant, or annoying, so justly removed. The exception is Spot adopting Worf. <3

The exception is the ready-room scene with Picard and Data. Their discussion there about family, change, and mortality is vital to Data's arc in the film, and without that scene, his actions in the climax feel more arbitrary and unjustified. That's a scene that needed to be there for the sake of the story, while the dune-buggy scene had nothing to do with the story. But they prioritized gratuitous action over important characterization, and that's the one thing that upsets me most about the film, even though I actually like it on the whole.

 

[eyeresist]

the ready-room scene with Picard and Data. Their discussion there about family, change, and mortality is vital to Data's arc in the film, and without that scene, his actions in the climax feel more arbitrary and unjustified.

I don't see how that scene (Picard talking about how births, marriages and funerals make us reflect on our lives) relates to Data's arc (discovers a less developed alternate self, tells Picard the difference is he desires to become better, then sacrifices self for Picard). Unless you're saying that Picard's speech led directly to Data's "I aspire to be better than I am", which I wouldn't buy.

 

[JWPlatt]

We get it, you hate Nemesis. Move along, indeed.

There's probably a policy around here somewhere about aiming your comments at the post instead of the person. You can't speak for me. Or others ("we").

I don't hate Nemesis. I don't like that scene.

 

[Dukhat]

The main problem is that there's absolutely no reason for it to be in the movie except for the sake of gratuitous action. You could cut directly from the discovery of B-4's head to the scene of his assembly in engineering and the plot of the film would be absolutely unaffected.

Exactly. Furthermore, they could have just found B4 intact instead of in parts all over the planet, and then cut to engineering and that would have worked even better.

Oh, I see a definite plot function to the fight. Picard says "This doesn't feel right", and then they cut to him wantonly assembling B-4? Now that wouldn't feel right. Both Picard and the audience need to be distracted from pondering the coincidences involved in this discovery.

But Picard's statement would be justified anyway once it's revealed that Shinzon put B4 on the planet for Picard to find.

I think that the Kolarans were actually working with Shinzon all along - that he had approached them, they allowed him to 'plant' the pieces of B-4 on their world, in the hopes of luring Picard and crew in.

It's the final look that the one Kolaran gives when he removes his goggles (after the Argo lifts off), that does it for me. He looks kind of smug, like "Everything's going as planned."

Three problems with that idea:

1. It wasn't necessary to have anyone shooting at them in the first place since the whole point was that Picard was supposed to find B4 which Shinzon deliberately buried for him to find. Why make it more difficult by adding the Kolarans?

2. Because they were shooting at them, it would have been a possibility that they could have hit Picard and killed him, and then where would Shinzon be?

3. If they were really working for Shinzon, then why didn't they just capture Picard right then and there and deliver him to Shinzon so he could take his blood? Then there would have been no need for B4 in the first place or the Enterprise's trip to Romulus.

We get it, you hate Nemesis. Move along, indeed.

Now now, he has every right to hate Nemesis, as it was such a shitty movie. What he doesn't have the right to do is hate Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness, because those movies were awesome

 

[Christopher]

I don't see how that scene (Picard talking about how births, marriages and funerals make us reflect on our lives) relates to Data's arc (discovers a less developed alternate self, tells Picard the difference is he desires to become better, then sacrifices self for Picard). Unless you're saying that Picard's speech led directly to Data's "I aspire to be better than I am", which I wouldn't buy.

The discussion involves mortality as part of being human, IIRC, and thus informs Data's decision to sacrifice his life for Picard, making it feel less arbitrary.

Oh, I see a definite plot function to the fight. Picard says "This doesn't feel right", and then they cut to him wantonly assembling B-4? Now that wouldn't feel right. Both Picard and the audience need to be distracted from pondering the coincidences involved in this discovery.

But Picard's statement would be justified anyway once it's revealed that Shinzon put B4 on the planet for Picard to find.

Of course, if we're fantasy-editing the scene anyway, it would be simple enough to cut that one line of Picard's out of the montage.

Now now, he has every right to hate Nemesis, as it was such a shitty movie.

Actually I quite like Nemesis for the most part. That's why I'm so frustrated by the dune-buggy chase.

 

[eyeresist]

I don't see how that scene (Picard talking about how births, marriages and funerals make us reflect on our lives) relates to Data's arc (discovers a less developed alternate self, tells Picard the difference is he desires to become better, then sacrifices self for Picard). Unless you're saying that Picard's speech led directly to Data's "I aspire to be better than I am", which I wouldn't buy.

The discussion involves mortality as part of being human, IIRC, and thus informs Data's decision to sacrifice his life for Picard, making it feel less arbitrary.

It still seems a very obscure and unlikely connection to me. Oh well.


Regarding the Kolarus chase, the argument that it's unnecessary is weak IMO. All sorts of things are unnecessary - the wedding for instance is not essential to the plot. In fact, you could cut the movie down to a two minute sequence and still get all the important plot information. The "extraneous" stuff sets the tone, gives body to the characters, gives an enjoyable diversion from the machinations of the plot, and broadens the universe of the story. So you can argue (if you want to) that it is inconsistent in terms of character or tone, or that you simply don't enjoy it, but not that it's dispensable.

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion on story matters

 

[JWPlatt]

Now now, he has every right to hate Nemesis, as it was such a shitty movie. What he doesn't have the right to do is hate Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness, because those movies were awesome

Oh my.

I don't hate ST or STID either. ("Star Trek" is ambiguous, btw).

 

[Dukhat]

Dude, lighten up a little, I was just joking.

 

[Smellmet]

All sorts of things are unnecessary - the wedding for instance is not essential to the plot.

I really like the wedding scene - Picard's speech, even though it starts in a cringeworthy way, when he starts talking about family, I think it's very touching, and helps give the film that 'last movie' feel, in much the same way as some of the scenes in The Undiscovered Country. It's not a long scene but I think the film would have suffered greatly if it wasn't there.