Dr. Soong

[EnriqueH]

I just watched "Brothers" this morning and really enjoyed it.

It was the first time I had seen it since it first aired back in the day.

I thought Spiner did a fantastic job juggling the three roles. I sometimes like to pick on Spiner on the boards, but I gotta give him credit---he was great. He was especially fun as Lore. It was one of the more enjoyable Data episodes, though I would've thought it calls into question the safety of Data losing control like that. Wouldn't that demand another android issue?

Anyway, I think Lore is one of my favorite TNG villains.

One thing that I didn't like in this episode was Dr. Soong's make up. It was all too obvious that there was someone that had make-up plastered on him. Spiner did what he could, but I found the make up distracting back when the episode first aired, and I found it distracting now, even though---as I said---the performance was effective enough.

I did not notice before that Keye Luke was in the running for the Dr. Soong role, according to show's Companion book.

That would've been positively BADASS. I thought Keye Luke was a great actor, and he had a wonderful voice. He spoke English beautifully. I know he passed away right around this time, so I wonder if that's why he didn't get the role.

Spiner did well, but it would've been better with Keye Luke, who was already an older man by this point and probably would not have needed gobs of make up caked all over his head.

 

[Mojochi]

I would've thought it calls into question the safety of Data losing control like that.

Frankly, that's the only issue I have with the episode. Serious breach of security potential for anyone who can hijack Data, a fact not lost of good old brother Lore when he does the very same thing to Data in Descent

Sure, plenty of Trek characters have been "Hijacked" by creatures, beings, entities, etc... but it would be very easy for Starfleet to see this as a technology issue, & go back to pursuing Data like they did in The Measure of a Man, now under the guise of him being a security risk

I mean let's face it. It only took two times for Geordi's visor to get hacked before he stopped wearing it. The 1st time he nearly assassinated someone & the 2nd time cost them the 1701-D

It is a hard turn to think no one would take issue with how easy it was for Data to be hijacked twice, such that no action is taken at all. It isn't an isolated plot issue though. After having been a Borg drone, Picard would never have been freely let back in command of a ship either. It's magical TNG logic there

 

[doubleohfive]

I thought it was a uniquely interesting route, having Spiner play Soong here (and again later in "Birthright, Part I" and "Inheritance." I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it before, but YMMV.

As for Data hijacking the ship, I agree that's a serious problem that basically gets swept under the rug after this episode. I guess it would make sense that the crew wouldn't worry about it because of course the one person who could do it would be the guy who built Data, but as we found out later, Lore was perfectly able to manipulate Data too. Oh well.

Still, the episode ("Brothers") is superb, and for all the bitching fans might do about Rick Berman, it's nice that he has such a beloved story to his credit. The ending scene ("They're brothers, Data. Brothers forgive.") never fails to pack an emotional wallop.

 

[EnriqueH]

I thought it was a uniquely interesting route, having Spiner play Soong here (and again later in "Birthright, Part I" and "Inheritance." I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it before, but YMMV.

I thought I was clear that I thought Spiner did a good job with the Soong role, but the make up was distractingly over the top IMO.

And though I can understand why Spiner played Soong, it's fun to ponder how Keye Luke would've approached the role since I find Luke's acting characteristics interesting for this type of role, especially considering his cool voice and unique stature.

 

[Mojochi]

Spiner's makeup might be distracting, but it's hardly unique for the show. Pulaski's deadly years in Unnatural Selection, Picard's 2001: A Space Odyssey looking old age in The Inner Light. Troi's old cat lady in Man of the People, McCoy's Century & a half man in Farpoint

I once posted a poll at another site on which old age makeup people thought was the worst. Mark Jameson won. They never did that well

 

[doubleohfive]

I thought it was a uniquely interesting route, having Spiner play Soong here (and again later in "Birthright, Part I" and "Inheritance." I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it before, but YMMV.

I thought I was clear that I thought Spiner did a good job with the Soong role, but the make up was distractingly over the top IMO.

And yet, the episode was still nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Achievement in Makeup for a Series for Michael Westmore, Abston Haymore June, Gerald Quist, and Michael Mills' work on the episode.

I guess the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences disagreed with you, too.

 

[sonak]

I thought the makeup was decent, and Spiner's performance, as well as the rare sight of doing three roles, makes up for any drawbacks to it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I disagree that Picard wouldn't have been allowed to stay in command after becoming a Borg drone. It's like he recovered from a temporary mental illness with no chance of recurring. I don't know if he would in modern day but definitely in the TNG 24th century.

Data is a different issue because he's an ongoing security risk. He's proven he can single-handedly hijack the ship at will and that his free will can be compromised. They should have at least kept him off duty until they could give him a firmware update.

 

[borgboy]

I think all the make up pictured is pretty good, especially when you consider it's done for TV in the 80s/90s.
I definitely prefer Spinner playing Soong over anyone else. It adds to the history of Data that he and his brothers were made in Soong's image. Spinner is a great actor, and he really shines playing three distinct different roles in one episode.
Data is one of my very favorite Trek characters, and Lore is one of the best villains.

 

[EnriqueH]

Spiner's makeup might be distracting, but it's hardly unique for the show. Pulaski's deadly years in Unnatural Selection, Picard's 2001: A Space Odyssey looking old age in The Inner Light. Troi's old cat lady in Man of the People, McCoy's Century & a half man in Farpoint

I once posted a poll at another site on which old age makeup people thought was the worst. Mark Jameson won. They never did that well

Oh, God, Mark Jameson's old man was HORRENDOUS. That stupid nodding at the beginning of the episode.

Ironically, enough, I thought De Kelley transcended the over the top make up the best of all those actors. He was able to emote and move his facial muscles naturally despite the make up that was globbed onto his face.

Spiner's performance was good, but all that putty seemed to hold his facial muscles in place. He delivered his lines great, and he was able to transcend the make up despite it being caked on so thick, but it was still distracting.

I thought it was a uniquely interesting route, having Spiner play Soong here (and again later in "Birthright, Part I" and "Inheritance." I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it before, but YMMV.

I thought I was clear that I thought Spiner did a good job with the Soong role, but the make up was distractingly over the top IMO.

And yet, the episode was still nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Achievement in Makeup for a Series for Michael Westmore, Abston Haymore June, Gerald Quist, and Michael Mills' work on the episode.

I guess the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences disagreed with you, too.

It didn't win, did it?

 

[Mojochi]

I disagree that Picard wouldn't have been allowed to stay in command after becoming a Borg drone. It's like he recovered from a temporary mental illness with no chance of recurring. I don't know if he would in modern day but definitely in the TNG 24th century.

I suppose I'm off topic here, but I'll just be brief. It's clear in the next episode Family that Picard is seriously emotionally damaged from the event. That alone is reason to pull him from command. Plus, there is no knowing the level of impact their influence had on him. In fact, many years later, when the events depicted in St: 1st Contact occur, it's clear from his behavior & nightmares that he's still undergoing psychological repercussions

At least with Data, we can be reasonably certain that Soong had no malevolent intention. It was just a homing beacon that triggered an override of his reasoning which prevented him resisting doing the things he did, & though it comes back to get him again with Lore, that threat has been nullified

You'd have to hope that they at least learned from the experience & updated a lot of the security protocols on the 1701-D. We can't know how it played out, but perhaps Data himself participated in a new system upgrade that essentially "Data-proofed" the command access systems. The one thing I'd think they'd want to prevent ever happening again is that Data can use his perfect voice mimicry to bypass voice authorization

They must have done something to counter the possibility, because when Lore gained control over him, there were no similar ship wide effects, except that he used his own access to abscond with the captured Borg drone . I'd think it must have occurred to Lore that with Data under his control, he could gain control over the Enterprise. Maybe it's not as easy anymore because of how things went down with Soong

 

[EnriqueH]

I can see a scenario where Starfleet allows Picard to retain command of the Enterprise because of his value to the Federation if the thinking is that allowing Picard to continue his command is part of the healing process.

Get the person back into his routine would be better for the person than if you took him out.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I disagree that Picard wouldn't have been allowed to stay in command after becoming a Borg drone. It's like he recovered from a temporary mental illness with no chance of recurring. I don't know if he would in modern day but definitely in the TNG 24th century.

I suppose I'm off topic here, but I'll just be brief. It's clear in the next episode Family that Picard is seriously emotionally damaged from the event. That alone is reason to pull him from command. Plus, there is no knowing the level of impact their influence had on him. In fact, many years later, when the events depicted in St: 1st Contact occur, it's clear from his behavior & nightmares that he's still undergoing psychological repercussions

I agree they should have cleared him psychologically before allowing him to resume command. Put him on a leave of absence until they were satisfied he was not compromised. But the situation would have been temporary.

With Data there was a risk that somebody else could hack him the way Dr Soong did.

 

[Mojochi]

I agree they should have cleared him psychologically before allowing him to resume command. Put him on a leave of absence until they were satisfied he was not compromised. But the situation would have been temporary.

Oh , I'm not saying he'd never serve again, but some amount of time removed is only logical. The alternative is that when the Borg come back to try again... You order him & his ship to stay away. That's no way to run a fleet, especially when the ship you're excluding just happens to be the one who saved you last time

With Data there was a risk that somebody else could hack him the way Dr Soong did.

Lol, I was going to disagree, on the grounds that both Lore & Soong had a uniquely intimate knowledge of Data which would be rare. Lore is the same as Data & Soong created him........ Then I remembered Ira Graves hijacked him too

Still though, Data's a person just like any of them, & pretty much all of them have been hijacked similarly. Picard himself has been infiltrated as many times, in Lonely Among Us, BoBW, & The Inner Light. Troi's telepathic nature has made her just as susceptible as Data's tech makes him. In Power Play, they both get hijacked in a completely unrelated way

Shit happens in space. They're all vulnerable. Data shouldn't be discriminated against just because his skills pose more of a threat in the wrong hands. They're happy to benefit from his skills daily. There's a price for that. They just need to up their defenses & security measures to protect against it better

However, Given how easily they have discriminated against Data, it's odd that they didn't after Brothers. Maybe Starfleet finally got the idea about Data's liberty, after trying to abscond with his daughter, and have him declared a Starfleet toaster. Lol

 

[doubleohfive]

Spiner's makeup might be distracting, but it's hardly unique for the show. Pulaski's deadly years in Unnatural Selection, Picard's 2001: A Space Odyssey looking old age in The Inner Light. Troi's old cat lady in Man of the People, McCoy's Century & a half man in Farpoint

I once posted a poll at another site on which old age makeup people thought was the worst. Mark Jameson won. They never did that well

Oh, God, Mark Jameson's old man was HORRENDOUS. That stupid nodding at the beginning of the episode.

Ironically, enough, I thought De Kelley transcended the over the top make up the best of all those actors. He was able to emote and move his facial muscles naturally despite the make up that was globbed onto his face.

Agreed. Though, I'm sure at least some of it was our own endearing familiarity with him over the years and the thrill of seeing him "again."

Spiner's performance was good, but all that putty seemed to hold his facial muscles in place. He delivered his lines great, and he was able to transcend the make up despite it being caked on so thick, but it was still distracting.

Agreed again - Spiner is a fabulous actor, but I still think you're being overly harsh regarding the makeup. Soong wasn't some young colt; he was an old man by the time he called Data and Lore back (at which point for Data it had been 30 years since the Crystalline Entity attacked Omicron Theta forcing Soong to evacuate.

Even if Soong were a young man in his thirties then, he'd still have been in his sixties by the time "Brothers" rolled around and lots of people in their sixties back in 1990 looked like how Soong was presented. At least, the fictional representation of someone in their sixties was always presented like that. Now, today, it's obviously different. You've got people like Pierce Brosnan (age 61), Jane Seymour (age 63), Liam Neeson (62), Lynda Carter (63), Dennis Quaid (60), Rene Russo (60), and Christie Brinkley (60), all of whom look AMAZING for such a colloquially "old" age.

I suppose given this, it's not surprising that now, looking back at a show produced 24 years ago you might think the "Soong" makeup was "too much" or just plain "distracting" but...

I thought I was clear that I thought Spiner did a good job with the Soong role, but the make up was distractingly over the top IMO.

And yet, the episode was still nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Achievement in Makeup for a Series for Michael Westmore, Abston Haymore June, Gerald Quist, and Michael Mills' work on the episode.

I guess the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences disagreed with you, too.

It didn't win, did it?

...So what? It didn't need to win to demonstrate that the work was superior to most of what else was being considered at the time. Clearly the work was well regarded enough by Westmore, et al's voting peers in the Academy to nominate them for their work. It's a cliche but it's also "enough to be nominated" sometimes, and it's more than apparent (especially given the number of times TNG's makeup team was honored for their achievements in makeup for the series) that they not only knew what they were doing, they also knew how to do it well.

 

[Timo]

If Starfleet were being threatened by people of Noonian Soong or Ira Graves level hijacking Data, I'd think the organization would rejoice: any chance to attract the attention of such geniuses would just make the organization stronger, if not in the Nietzschean sense, then at least in terms of publicity!

As for Picard recovering, it seems they didn't even get all the Borg hardware out of him. There's still enough in there to amount to a subspace transceiver in ST:FC... But admittedly Crusher thought she had succeeded in the cleanup originally.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I always cut actors slack when wearing age makeup. That would have to affect ones' performance, no matter how good they are.

What most struck me about the Soong makeup, is I wondered why his skin looked so tanned. It was like he'd spent the last thirty years in Bermuda!

lots of people in their sixties back in 1990 looked like how Soong was presented. At least, the fictional representation of someone in their sixties was always presented like that. Now, today, it's obviously different. You've got people like Pierce Brosnan (age 61), Jane Seymour (age 63), Liam Neeson (62), Lynda Carter (63), Dennis Quaid (60), Rene Russo (60), and Christie Brinkley (60), all of whom look AMAZING for such a colloquially "old" age.

I was noticing a while back, watching my Hawaii Five-O dvd's, at the seeming "discrepancy" between characters' stated ages, and their appearance. One person of interest, for instance, was described as 'male, Caucasian, age 41', and yet the character/actor, to my eyes, was easily in his 60's. It happens consistently, too.