Kirk's Celebrity Status

[Maurice]

The film is vague on the Enterprise's status. Remember, Bones says "Wouldn't it be easier to put an experienced crew back on the ship?" implying that the ship is going to be re-crewed at some point. If she were exclusively a training vessel, that line makes no sense.

 

[Timo]

I think the Excelsior's mission was cover for something more elaborate

...And thus possibly another "Meyerism", a Cold War reference well fitting the Trek context. This would be the International Year of Geophysics, a thin excuse to conduct military research on the oceans, polar regions and upper atmosphere, with several ships in Starfleet contributing with their "scientific" gear or without.

After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that each had their own career planetside, and were only called together for special, showboat occasions, pretty much always directly to the Enterprise.

I really like this interpretation. It really doesn't look like our heroes ever had time for long duration joint adventures apart from what we explicitly saw in the movies.

It's a somewhat different issue whether the Enterprise-A had any adventures outside those brief stunts with our heroes aboard. She was seemingly created for the exclusive purpose of being a gift to Kirk; would a ship of such antiquated design be of any operational worth? (If not, it becomes all the easier to accept that Starfleet would donate the ship to Kirk.)

Possibly, re-equipping the original ship for another deep space sortie would already have been a major undertaking due to her age, so at the same price she would be given an all-new crew, NASA style rather than Navy style. If the E-A was similarly old and tired, she might not sail out a lot...

Does Starfleet even believe in "five-year missions"? Kirk spent five years out there doing assorted unrelated stuff everybody else was also shown doing, which uniquely qualified him to be the boss in ST:TMP. So it seems the one thing making it special was the sustained length - and it sort of follows that at the five-year mark, everybody stopped doing any and all of this stuff altogether, or at least doing it together, or else there would be no "mark" there.

..that line makes no sense

Yeah, "training ship" status might be more transient than we sometimes think. Perhaps the Republic* is the one proper "schoolship" while any other vessel may undertake training duties especially when not actively being used elsewhere.

If we assume that the E-nil was slated for further multi-year exploration and that Starfleet prepares for major missions by training an all-new, well-integrated crew, we could also excuse the "Enterprise class" sign on the simulator. It's not that the ship would belong to the Enterprise class, it's that the class training to become Enterprise officers is attending today.

Timo Saloniemi

* In "Court Martial", the ship need not be a dedicated schoolship at all, and indeed Kirk and Finney appear to have been several years into their careers when the incident took place. But fandom paints the vessel as a schoolship in the later years (due to the perhaps-misconception of her having been one in Kirk's youth already), and DS9 "Valiant" sort of nods to that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

In "Court Martial", the ship need not be a dedicated schoolship at all, and indeed Kirk and Finney appear to have been several years into their careers when the incident took place.

In fact, Kirk's dialogue said that the Republic incident was several years after he became friends with Finney at the Academy. The Okudas ignored this when doing the ST Chronology. The Republic voyage being a cadet training cruise is pure conjecture, and a rather unlikely one given what Kirk says in "Court Martial."

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, Kirk probably was still associated with the Academy "several years" after his graduation. We know that Lieutenant Kirk taught Gary Mitchell (or studied with him, postgrad, but that's far less likely considering the supposed age difference).

Further, we know that Kirk sailed with Captain Garrovick "from the day [he] left the Academy"; since he was an Ensign aboard the Republic, we're left to choose between 1) Garrovick being the skipper of that ship rather than his later Farragut; 2) Kirk doing an Academy instructor stint after sailing with Garrovick till the skipper's death; or 3) Kirk never leaving the Academy until the instructor job was over.

All are possible scenarios. The first one splits the association with Garrovick in two parts, though, and thus doesn't fit the "Obsession" story very well. The middle one involves a ship swap around the time Kirk is promoted to Lieutenant, but shortens the overall length of the Garrovick/Kirk association and again probably runs against the spirit of "Obsession". And the third one is the one that would establish the Republic as a training vessel of some sort, either a dedicated schoolship of the Academy or then a random ship hosting instructor Kirk and his pal and former classmate (but not necessarily current instructor colleague) Finney along with some cadets or trainees.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Did Kirk say he "Sailed with Captain Garrovick", or did he say he and Garrovick "Sailed on the Farragut together"? The one allows your first possibility without the split.

 

[YJAGG]

The film is vague on the Enterprise's status. Remember, Bones says "Wouldn't it be easier to put an experienced crew back on the ship?" implying that the ship is going to be re-crewed at some point. If she were exclusively a training vessel, that line makes no sense.

could of been wishful thinking, McCoy might not of been privy to the agenda of Star Fleet. But as my Dad says "Why ? because it's in the script"


I think Kirk was well known throughout the fleet and was in a lot of Federation news feeds, but I think he was not well liked, look how his classmates turned on him so quickly in Court Marshal -it just reminded me of the high school grudges that sometimes come up when talking with friends.

I doubt the writer or director used the motivation of "OK guys you are in the officer's club, your old teacher has just died allegedly at the hands of the pretty boy you went to academy with that always won at everything, I mean, even when he lost he won, he got a command before any of you. To make matters worse you all know he cheated on his final exam and not only did he get away with it, he got a special award for it too. Yes actors he stole the girl you wanted to marry and odds are he slept with the woman you married before you knew her.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

On the other hand, Kirk probably was still associated with the Academy "several years" after his graduation. We know that Lieutenant Kirk taught Gary Mitchell (or studied with him, postgrad, but that's far less likely considering the supposed age difference).

I've always had trouble with this, since Shatner and Gary Lockwood were obviously pretty close in age.

Further, we know that Kirk sailed with Captain Garrovick "from the day [he] left the Academy"; since he was an Ensign aboard the Republic, we're left to choose between 1) Garrovick being the skipper of that ship rather than his later Farragut; 2) Kirk doing an Academy instructor stint after sailing with Garrovick till the skipper's death; or 3) Kirk never leaving the Academy until the instructor job was over.

For me the simplest explanation is that Captain Garrovick commanded the Republic before he commanded the Farragut and Kirk served under him on both ships. It works with all the available facts, especially since we're never given the name of the Republic's commander.

 

[J.T.B.]

For me the simplest explanation is that Captain Garrovick commanded the Republic before he commanded the Farragut and Kirk served under him on both ships. It works with all the available facts, especially since we're never given the name of the Republic's commander.

That's been my preferred explanation, too. Garrovick was relieved from Republic and assigned command of Farragut, and either requested or approved the request of the sharp young officer to transfer to the new ship with him. At some point in/around the Farragut assignment, Kirk was promoted to lieutenant JG.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That's been my preferred explanation, too. Garrovick was relieved from Republic and assigned command of Farragut, and either requested or approved the request of the sharp young officer to transfer to the new ship with him. At some point in/around the Farragut assignment, Kirk was promoted to lieutenant JG.

Yep. And then young Lt. JG. Kirk commanded his first planetary survey on Neural...

 

[Timo]

The "problem" with that approach is the fact that Lieutenant Kirk was teaching at the Academy. If this assignment doesn't split the "Garrovick years", then the time spent with Garrovick splits the Academy years. If Kirk is skyrocketing toward Captain rank, this sort of back-and-forth is not the most welcome thing...

(Especially if we want to say that Kirk did his command studies and Kobayashi Maru in both timelines more or less straight after graduation, at Lieutenant rank.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

He did take the Kobayashi Maru test three times if I recall correctly.

 

[LobsterAfternoon]

Probably worth noting that our view, as 21st century folks in developed countries, of celebrity is probably very different from what the 'enlightened' Federation citizens celebrate. I can't name too many serving military officers, but I unfortunately can tell you about Kanye West.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The "problem" with that approach is the fact that Lieutenant Kirk was teaching at the Academy. If this assignment doesn't split the "Garrovick years", then the time spent with Garrovick splits the Academy years. If Kirk is skyrocketing toward Captain rank, this sort of back-and-forth is not the most welcome thing...

(Especially if we want to say that Kirk did his command studies and Kobayashi Maru in both timelines more or less straight after graduation, at Lieutenant rank.)

I have no problem imagining Kirk spending a semester or two teaching at the Academy after the loss of the Farragut. Considering how hard that loss was affecting Kirk over a decade later, it would make sense for him to go back to Earth and lick his wounds for a while. Plus, I'd think that anyone who's had a ship assignment or two would be more valuable as a teacher.

Alternatively, you could assume that Garrovick being Kirk's commanding officer "from the day I left the Academy" refers to the end of Kirk's teaching assignment, instead of his graduation.

That's the funny thing about Kirk's backstory -- there are about two or three different ways that the jigsaw puzzle pieces can all fit together, and without more information, none of them are really incorrect.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I feel like I read somewhere (and if could well be a fandom-generated thing) that the original Enterprise under Kirk's command was indeed the only Constitution-class ship of the original twelve to return from it's five-year mission successfully

Assuming all the other Connies were on 5-year missions.

Starfleet adopted the Enterprise arrowhead/delta insignia for the entire fleet (as evidenced by TMP onward)

Actually if you pay attention to TOS the arrowhead/delta insignia was already wide spread with really only two ships having different ones and a third one only through decades later retcont.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I feel like I read somewhere (and if could well be a fandom-generated thing) that the original Enterprise under Kirk's command was indeed the only Constitution-class ship of the original twelve to return from it's five-year mission successfully

Assuming all the other Connies were on 5-year missions.

Starfleet adopted the Enterprise arrowhead/delta insignia for the entire fleet (as evidenced by TMP onward)

Actually if you pay attention to TOS the arrowhead/delta insignia was already wide spread with really only two ships having different ones and a third one only through decades later retcont.

Yeah, it's almost better to think that the TOS insignia represented a division of ships rather than a particular ship.

 

[Timo]

That's the funny thing about Kirk's backstory -- there are about two or three different ways that the jigsaw puzzle pieces can all fit together, and without more information, none of them are really incorrect.

Which sort of links to that recent thread about whether things in the regular timeline really happened all that differently from what we saw in the 2009 movie. Kirk is a jumble of contradictions, a rebellious stack of book with legs, a shy and private womanizer, a nobody known to everybody - but this is all right because the contradicting descriptions come from different people, and Kirk in all of his incarnations sounds like a guy who wouldn't let his opponent (superior, underling, date, bug-eyed monster, all of the above) know too much about his inner self.

Yeah, it's almost better to think that the TOS insignia represented a division of ships rather than a particular ship.

We saw very few other starships in their natural environment, and when we did, those differing badges did indeed appear - the low number of alternate designs is something of a statistical illusion, then. But I don't think this detracts from the above idea. After all, given what we see and hear, starships like Kirk's might be rare things, with only one or two per a division of ships!

The flip side of the coin is SB 11 where pretty much everybody wears the arrowhead. Perfectly okay for the division badge model, and clearly not a case of everybody coming from the Enterprise. Indeed, the arrowhead makes its prominent appearances on people who explicitly haven't been in touch with Kirk for a while: Mendez' secretary, the people at the bar...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That's the funny thing about Kirk's backstory -- there are about two or three different ways that the jigsaw puzzle pieces can all fit together, and without more information, none of them are really incorrect.

Which sort of links to that recent thread about whether things in the regular timeline really happened all that differently from what we saw in the 2009 movie.

A thread that I started, oddly enough.

 

[killerbee256]

Probably worth noting that our view, as 21st century folks in developed countries, of celebrity is probably very different from what the 'enlightened' Federation citizens celebrate. I can't name too many serving military officers, but I unfortunately can tell you about Kanye West.

It's worth noting that in the 60's when TOS was being produced astronauts were celebrities. This thinking influenced the writers of the series.

 

[Timo]

...Yet when Kirk visits civilians, it's rarely in the role of an astronaut. For poor Leighton, Kirk represents the law. For poor Sam and the surviving Kirks, Jim might bring salvation like an ambulance crew or a cavalry unit would. For people not slated to immediately die on encountering James T. Kirk, the Captain typically represents an oppressive government.

In TOS, Kirk has many friends in the civilian world. But those who aren't from his circle of intimacy have never heard of him. In the TOS movies, the situation might be reversed, as Kirk seems to have isolated himself behind his desk despite no doubt having been a household name for at least a brief while.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[doubleohfive]

On the other hand, Kirk probably was still associated with the Academy "several years" after his graduation. We know that Lieutenant Kirk taught Gary Mitchell (or studied with him, postgrad, but that's far less likely considering the supposed age difference).

I've always had trouble with this, since Shatner and Gary Lockwood were obviously pretty close in age.

I haven't. I always interpreted this line from Mitchell as sarcasm; that he and Kirk were classmates at the Academy and that Kirk just happened to be a Lieutenant (as Saavik was shown to be in Star Trek II and likewise Valeris in Star Trek VI), and further that Mitchell was teasing Kirk for being so studious whereas the rest of the cadets in their circle were much less so. He even teases Kirk about setting him up with that "little blonde lab technician" who Kirk nearly marries (is this supposed to be Carol Marcus?), suggesting Mitchell did so because he probably figured Kirk could have used less time with his books studying and more time with the ladies having fun.

Your mileage may vary of course, but that's what I got from it.