Kirk's Celebrity Status

[MacLeod]

As I said earlier, I think you have to look back to the age of sail, when ships where exploring the oceans of the Earth for a better example of how well known particular captains might be known in their own day (at least in the 23rd Century). At their status can grow over time long after they have died.



Sure for the 24th century when it seems as if the UFP is a less expansionist/exploratory phase the modern navies might be a better anology to use.

 

[T'Girl]

Terrell was a highly-regarded commanding officer and had more than earned his stripes commanding the Reliant and the Sagittarius.

Where are you coming up with "the Sagittarius?"

 

[Timo]

That's a central element of the Vanguard series of novels: Kirk makes a cameo there, and Nogura becomes a regular at one point, but Terrell is a series-long regular who gradually gains in prominence. There's now a whole spinoff called Seekers, too, following Terrell's adventures on this tiny scoutship Sagittarius.

I'm not aware of anything else of significance having been done with Terrell, and Memory Beta seems to agree. But the sidekick skipper now gets as much coverage as, say, this MacKenzie Calhoun fellah. And probably way more than any other canon sidekick since Saavik.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tavor]

could have had celebrity status depends on what he had done
think
Christopher Columbus , captain cook ,captain drake etc

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I reckon his celebrity status during the movie era was somewhat comparable to that of famous contemporary military leaders (think Norman Schwarzkopf, Colin Powell prior to becoming Secretary of State, or David Petraeus).

It's tough for me to imagine Kirk giving press conferences. In Generations he seems distinctly uncomfortable with talking to reporters. As I recall, he just gave the first reporter a quick quote without even breaking his stride.

And as long as we're on this topic, I'm not nuts about the whole TNG-era notion of the Enterprise being Starfleet's flagship, either. I much prefer the TOS approach, where it's implied that pretty much every starship is having these kinds of adventures, and the Enterprise's are just the ones that we're happening to see.

Basically, I see TOS-Kirk as being just another -- albeit well-regarded -- Starship Captain, known in the fleet but not to the general public. That might've changed by the time of the movies, when his job as Chief of Starfleet Operations brought him in contact with the public more often. And I imagine that the V'Ger incident got a fair amount of publicity. After that, some enterprising young reporter might've looked up Kirk's record & said, "Hey, this guy is pretty cool!" So maybe there was a book or two written about him, much to Kirk's embarrassment.

 

[Timo]

Not even TNG made any clear correlation between the hero ship having exciting adventures and the hero ship being the top of the cream of the elite. Most of the adventures just happened to Kirk and Picard, about half of them being chance encounters and half of them preplanned missions going awry. The E-D being "the Flagship of the Federation" had no real impact on that.

The only real difference is that Kirk at best acted as a chauffeur for important diplomats, or negotiated his own ass out of a flame, while Picard on occasion was allowed to act as a diplomatic representative for Federation ideals all by himself. But that merely introduced one more type of adventure to TNG: that of Picard getting tangled up in interesting interstellar politics. When VOY and ENT rolled along, the writers failed to give these spinoffs much individual character, but both premises did feature the skippers in situations where they were de facto diplomats in a way Kirk never was - they were more isolated from their organization than Kirk at his most rogue, and acted the part.

Another side effect of the E-D being the Federation Showpiece was that there were people aboard for apparent prestige reasons: the (in)famous First Klingon in Starfleet, the (in)famous First Sentient Android in Starfleet, and just possibly the Most Brilliant Medical Researcher in the Whole Universe (until she got replaced by the Captain's old flame again). Kirk's ship only had Spock, which we could still accept as coincidence. But that gave TNG character, which I appreciated: it was the Federation Elite Squad against Kirk's G.I. Average Joe Force or Sisko's League of Exiles, and good use was made of it eventually.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Turd Ferguson]

"I remember reading about your missions when I was in grade school." -Captain John Harriman, U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, Star Trek Generations

Assuming the esteemed Captain Harriman is of typical captain age, we'll say, thirty five, and grade school consists of ages 5-12, we can deduce that little Johnny Harriman read about Captain Kirk's adventures 23 to 30 years ago, basically chronicling the first five year mission and half of the second, which would include the V'Ger mission.

I'm not sure if Captain Kirk causing several artificial intelligences to kill themselves could rise him to celebrity status, but I could see him being somewhat known in a news of the weird sort of way in Federation news reports.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

"I remember reading about your missions when I was in grade school." -Captain John Harriman, U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-B, Star Trek Generations

I'd chalk this up as just another of the many, many things that TNG writers got wrong when writing about TOS characters.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I'd chalk this up as just another of the many, many things that TNG writers got wrong when writing about TOS characters.

I agree. Memory Beta indicates Harriman was born in 2259, which means he would have been between 6 and 11 years of age during Kirk's first five-year mission; I suppose it's possible he could have been talking about Kirk's second five-year mission (2273-2278), but that would have put him in high school for most of that time period, which doesn't wash with the line itself. And I doubt he would have been reading about Kirk's missions as they were happening--unless he was implying that his father gave him edited mission reports of Kirk's to study.

--Sran

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'd chalk this up as just another of the many, many things that TNG writers got wrong when writing about TOS characters.

I agree. Memory Beta indicates Harriman was born in 2259, which means he would have been between 6 and 11 years of age during Kirk's first five-year mission; I suppose it's possible he could have been talking about Kirk's second five-year mission (2273-2278), but that would have put him in high school for most of that time period, which doesn't wash with the line itself. And I doubt he would have been reading about Kirk's missions as they were happening--unless he was implying that his father gave him edited mission reports of Kirk's to study.

We might want to take Memory Beta's date of when Harriman was born with a grain of salt. Despite his youthful face and seeming inexperience at the time of Generations, Harriman might have been a fortysomething (he had gray in his hair).
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100703041731/startrek/images/0/03/Johnharrimangen.jpg

Even a fortysomething can find himself in over his head. In that case, his claim of reading about Kirk's exploits during TOS in grade school would have been valid if he was between 10 and 13 at the time.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

i don't have a problem with the dating. I have a problem with the notion that Kirk's missions on the Enterprise would be a part of the public record almost as soon as they happened.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

I somehow got the impression that, at least by the end of the series, Kirk was rather infamous among the Klingons. Maybe this came from reading spin-off novels; I'm not sure.

 

[killerbee256]

We might want to take Memory Beta's date of when Harriman was born with a grain of salt. Despite his youthful face and seeming inexperience at the time of Generations, Harriman might have been a fortysomething (he had gray in his hair).

I don't know, but I'm 29 and I'm starting to go grey. At most I'd say he's 35ish, the actor was 38 when they made the movie.

 

[C.E. Evans]

We might want to take Memory Beta's date of when Harriman was born with a grain of salt. Despite his youthful face and seeming inexperience at the time of Generations, Harriman might have been a fortysomething (he had gray in his hair).

I don't know, but I'm 29 and I'm starting to go grey.

That's somewhat premature than most, but many don't start going gray until later in life.

At most I'd say he's 35ish, the actor was 38 when they made the movie.

Many actors play characters that are a different age than they themselves are. While some fans may think Harriman was a young whippersnapper, it is plausible that Harriman was 40 or even a little bit older at the time of Generations, which would make his claim of reading about Kirk while in grade school valid.

i don't have a problem with the dating. I have a problem with the notion that Kirk's missions on the Enterprise would be a part of the public record almost as soon as they happened.

If some of his exploits were newsworthy, such as his ship being the first to reach planet X or meet civilization X, I don't know why Starfleet wouldn't make it public record or wait for some mysterious time to make it so. Incidents of Federation security would be a different matter--especially if they were of a sensitive nature--but scientific/cultural discoveries would seem to be things that Starfleet would be eager to make public, IMO.

 

[Richard Baker]

Today if somebody even remotely famous farts it is posted on the Internet- who knows how fast information may circulate a couple of centuries from now.

Personally I liked to thin the Enterprise, while involved in important missions, was one of twelve ships which were also participating in important missions. One thing I did not like about TNG is the celebrity status- everyone was so freak'n special and vital to the Universe that if that ship was destroyed you might as well say goodbye to tomorrow. Picard even got to choose who would run the Klingon Empire once.

Kirk was a good captain, but I would like to think most people commanding a Starship were good people who did wonderful things we just did not have a show about.

 

[FormerLurker]

^^Not everyone goes gray at a predetermined rate, or predetermined time. Remember the third season of American Idol? The winner was 29 at the time(one of the oldest contestants the show ever had, to be sure), and was almost completely gray. I myself started going gray at 16, and by the time I was thirty was about half gray. This had much more to do with environmental pressures(I was bullied, sometimes for liking Star Trek) than anything else. Thus, without knowing Harriman's childhood, we really have no idea how old he is based on his gray hair.

That said, if he's in his mid thirties, he may have read the tabloid stories Kirk was complaining about in the opening chapters of the TMP novelization. Exciting stuff for a little kid, and just maybe inspiring enough to cause him to enlist in Starfleet.

 

[Richard Baker]

^^Not everyone goes gray at a predetermined rate, or predetermined time. Remember the third season of American Idol? The winner was 29 at the time(one of the oldest contestants the show ever had, to be sure), and was almost completely gray. I myself started going gray at 16, and by the time I was thirty was about half gray. This had much more to do with environmental pressures(I was bullied, sometimes for liking Star Trek) than anything else. Thus, without knowing Harriman's childhood, we really have no idea how old he is based on his gray hair.

I dated a girl who had white hair since graduating from High School- ran in the family that way...

 

[C.E. Evans]

Gray hair generally is associated with being middle age or older rather than being younger, however. There are always some exceptions to everything, but it isn't remotely implausible that Harriman wasn't quite as young as some think he was--old enough to have read about Kirk in grade school anyway.

 

[trekshark]

I'd say he would definitely have celebrity level fame after the events of ST IV
possibly after TMP too. Saving the planet from a ship capable of generating a solar system sized cloud of energy after it put weapons in orbit would probably have become public knowledge pretty fast

 

[T'Girl]

... possibly after TMP too. Saving the planet from ...

Wouldn't that really have been Decker, and not Kirk?