How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?

[Nerys Myk]

^Again, though, it's a mistake to think about it in present-day terms, where authorities are always within reach. We're talking about events happening on the frontier, on far-flung interstellar colonies in an era when travel between worlds was supposed to take weeks or months. In such a context, a Starfleet captain might very well be the highest legitimate authority figure available. This is part of the originally defined premise for TOS -- the Enterprise's mission, according to the series proposal, included law enforcement and support for colonies and vessels on the otherwise lawless frontier. So you're wrong -- in that frontier context, Kirk was the legitimate authority.

Maybe. Kirk is pulled of his course by Leighton and Kirk is pissed off by that. Leighton then uses Kirk's connection to him and the Tarsus IV Massacre to set Kirk on Karidian's trail. Not as a Starfleet Officer, but as a fellow survivor. Leighton's murder really lights the fire in Kirk to investigate. Spock seems oblivious to Kirk's investigation ( even though he was consulted about Karidian/Kodos earlier) remarking that taking the actors to Benecia will take them off course. Which implies Kirk is going slightly "rogue" here.

Just how far out on the frontier are Planet Q and Benecia? Surely there are law enforcement and legal authorities there? Planet Q doesn't look all that rough in the shots we see from Leighton's windows. Though it seems the Leightons live outside the city limits. Benecia might be, since Spock claims their medical facilities are "primitive" in Turnabout Intruder, though apparently good enough to take care of Lenore in The Conscience of the King.

 

[Christopher]

Just how far out on the frontier are Planet Q and Benecia? Surely there are law enforcement and legal authorities there?

Maybe, but they wouldn't have jurisdiction over Kodos's crimes on Tarsus IV. Apprehending Kodos would presumably be a federal matter, and as a Starfleet captain, Kirk is a representative of federal authority.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just how far out on the frontier are Planet Q and Benecia? Surely there are law enforcement and legal authorities there?

Maybe, but they wouldn't have jurisdiction over Kodos's crimes on Tarsus IV. Apprehending Kodos would presumably be a federal matter, and as a Starfleet captain, Kirk is a representative of federal authority.

OTOH, they dumped Lenore on Benecia rather than sending her to a Federal facility.

Criminal investigations sounds like a job for Federation Security ( STVIII) rather than a Starfleet officer.

 

[Christopher]

Criminal investigations sounds like a job for Federation Security ( STVIII) rather than a Starfleet officer.

As I keep telling you, you're failing to consider that this is a frontier setting. You're thinking in terms of the life that you and I lead, where any relevant official or authority figure is a phone call away. A frontier environment is not like that. A given problem would need to be dealt with by whoever is available, even if they aren't the ideal person for the job. TOS was based partly on the Old West and partly on the Age of Sail. So don't think in terms of calling the FBI. Think in terms of sending a rider to the nearest frontier fort so they can call in the cavalry.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Criminal investigations sounds like a job for Federation Security ( STVIII) rather than a Starfleet officer.

As I keep telling you, you're failing to consider that this is a frontier setting. You're thinking in terms of the life that you and I lead, where any relevant official or authority figure is a phone call away. A frontier environment is not like that. A given problem would need to be dealt with by whoever is available, even if they aren't the ideal person for the job. TOS was based partly on the Old West and partly on the Age of Sail. So don't think in terms of calling the FBI. Think in terms of sending a rider to the nearest frontier fort so they can call in the cavalry.

The Enterprise goes back and forth from the frontier (and beyond) to the heart of the Federation.(places like Vulcan or other member worlds) So unless explicitly stated we can't know how close the ship is to nonStarfleet authorities in the episode. From what's said in the episode, Kirk seems to take on the case because of his personal connection and not because he's the closest Federal authority. He in fact manipulates events to place his suspect close to him. I see nothing official about his investigation.

 

[Christopher]

The Enterprise goes back and forth from the frontier (and beyond) to the heart of the Federation.(places like Vulcan or other member worlds)

You're retroactively imposing assumptions that didn't yet exist at the time in question. We're talking about a first-season episode made before the term "Federation" was even coined. (It first showed up in "Arena," six episodes later, and wasn't established as including Vulcan until "Errand of Mercy" near the end of the season.) At the time "The Conscience of the King" was written, the Enterprise was assumed to be an Earth ship. So anything other than Earth was colonial territory. And the show made a point of avoiding Earth, except when it went back in time. The frontier setting was fundamental to what TOS was about. That's why "frontier" is the fourth word you hear in the opening narration. It's a word that carries a specific meaning -- a region beyond the controlled territory of a civilization, a region where its authority is absent or fragmentary and the occupants must employ flexible strategies to adapt and survive. The mythology of the frontier was a pervasive thread in 1960s television, due to the abundance of Westerns, and it was all over the science fiction cinema of the era, since it was the height of the early Space Age.

So it's a given that Star Trek is in a frontier setting where there isn't some well-established organ of state power to call on -- or rather, where Starfleet is the established organ of state power and its captains have the authority to make independent decisions that can affect whole worlds, because they're the only ones in a position to do so. That's why Kirk was able to decide to breach the Neutral Zone in "Balance of Terror." We tend to look on that as renegade behavior, but that's because we've forgotten in this complacent, settled, interconnected age how a frontier works. By the paradigm on which TOS was based, Kirk was entirely within his authority to make decisions that might lead to war or have lasting galactic consequences. Because a lot of the time he'd have to wait weeks for orders from Starfleet Command and would be the only one capable of making those decisions when they needed to be made.

So yes, granted, his approach to the Karidian affair was a little irregular. But that doesn't make it beyond his authority, because that's just not how things worked in TOS. It may not have seemed to you like an official investigation, but that's because frontiers, by their very nature, are regions of limited regulation where people have to be flexible to deal with the unpredictable circumstances that can arise. That's a large part of why frontier settings have so much appeal for storytellers and audiences.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Enterprise goes back and forth from the frontier (and beyond) to the heart of the Federation.(places like Vulcan or other member worlds)

You're retroactively imposing assumptions that didn't yet exist at the time in question. We're talking about a first-season episode made before the term "Federation" was even coined. (It first showed up in "Arena," six episodes later, and wasn't established as including Vulcan until "Errand of Mercy" near the end of the season.) At the time "The Conscience of the King" was written, the Enterprise was assumed to be an Earth ship. So anything other than Earth was colonial territory. And the show made a point of avoiding Earth, except when it went back in time. The frontier setting was fundamental to what TOS was about. That's why "frontier" is the fourth word you hear in the opening narration. It's a word that carries a specific meaning -- a region beyond the controlled territory of a civilization, a region where its authority is absent or fragmentary and the occupants must employ flexible strategies to adapt and survive. The mythology of the frontier was a pervasive thread in 1960s television, due to the abundance of Westerns, and it was all over the science fiction cinema of the era, since it was the height of the early Space Age.

So it's a given that Star Trek is in a frontier setting where there isn't some well-established organ of state power to call on -- or rather, where Starfleet is the established organ of state power and its captains have the authority to make independent decisions that can affect whole worlds, because they're the only ones in a position to do so. That's why Kirk was able to decide to breach the Neutral Zone in "Balance of Terror." We tend to look on that as renegade behavior, but that's because we've forgotten in this complacent, settled, interconnected age how a frontier works. By the paradigm on which TOS was based, Kirk was entirely within his authority to make decisions that might lead to war or have lasting galactic consequences. Because a lot of the time he'd have to wait weeks for orders from Starfleet Command and would be the only one capable of making those decisions when they needed to be made.

So yes, granted, his approach to the Karidian affair was a little irregular. But that doesn't make it beyond his authority, because that's just not how things worked in TOS. It may not have seemed to you like an official investigation, but that's because frontiers, by their very nature, are regions of limited regulation where people have to be flexible to deal with the unpredictable circumstances that can arise. That's a large part of why frontier settings have so much appeal for storytellers and audiences.

I assume nothing. I simply look at the series as a whole rather than isolating each episode or season. So that means I have to apply later additions like Starfleet and the Federation to earlier episodes as if they were there from the beginning. Because in universe that how it is. The Enterprise's mission includes exploring beyond the frontier, providing support for colonies on the frontier, defending Federation interests and performing missions well within the Federation's borders.

 

[Christopher]

I assume nothing. I simply look at the series as a whole rather than isolating each episode or season. So that means I have to apply later additions like Starfleet and the Federation to earlier episodes as if they were there from the beginning. Because in universe that how it is.

Except that you seem to be applying 24th-century assumptions about a tamer, more stable Federation, which are anachronistic when applied to the TOS setting. Picard always had Starfleet Command hovering over him, just a phone call away, but for every TOS episode where Kirk got live orders from a commodore or admiral, there was one where they were two or three weeks away from getting an answer from Starfleet and had to make the decisions on their own. Picard even specifically pointed out once or twice that Kirk operated in a more lawless frontier era. The entire mission profile of Kirk's Enterprise was to patrol worlds on the fringes. That was standard operating procedure. That was the rule, and episodes like "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel" where they were deeper in the UFP were the exception -- especially in the first season, when they didn't do stories set on Federation worlds because they hadn't thought of it yet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I assume nothing. I simply look at the series as a whole rather than isolating each episode or season. So that means I have to apply later additions like Starfleet and the Federation to earlier episodes as if they were there from the beginning. Because in universe that how it is.

Except that you seem to be applying 24th-century assumptions about a tamer, more stable Federation, which are anachronistic when applied to the TOS setting.

Now that's just plain insulting!

Picard always had Starfleet Command hovering over him, just a phone call away, but for every TOS episode where Kirk got live orders from a commodore or admiral, there was one where they were two or three weeks away from getting an answer from Starfleet and had to make the decisions on their own. Picard even specifically pointed out once or twice that Kirk operated in a more lawless frontier era. The entire mission profile of Kirk's Enterprise was to patrol worlds on the fringes. That was standard operating procedure. That was the rule, and episodes like "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel" where they were deeper in the UFP were the exception -- especially in the first season, when they didn't do stories set on Federation worlds because they hadn't thought of it yet.

Which is my point. The ship wasn't always on the lawless frontier. ( and Picard is a pompous jerk ) It's patrol seems to take it through the "heart of civilization" as well. With worlds like Vulcan and Ardana well with in reach. Planet Q would appear to be one of those worlds.

 

[Commishsleer]

I assume nothing. I simply look at the series as a whole rather than isolating each episode or season. So that means I have to apply later additions like Starfleet and the Federation to earlier episodes as if they were there from the beginning. Because in universe that how it is.

Except that you seem to be applying 24th-century assumptions about a tamer, more stable Federation, which are anachronistic when applied to the TOS setting.

Now that's just plain insulting!

Picard always had Starfleet Command hovering over him, just a phone call away, but for every TOS episode where Kirk got live orders from a commodore or admiral, there was one where they were two or three weeks away from getting an answer from Starfleet and had to make the decisions on their own. Picard even specifically pointed out once or twice that Kirk operated in a more lawless frontier era. The entire mission profile of Kirk's Enterprise was to patrol worlds on the fringes. That was standard operating procedure. That was the rule, and episodes like "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel" where they were deeper in the UFP were the exception -- especially in the first season, when they didn't do stories set on Federation worlds because they hadn't thought of it yet.

Which is my point. The ship wasn't always on the lawless frontier. ( and Picard is a pompous jerk ) It's patrol seems to take it through the "heart of civilization" as well. With worlds like Vulcan and Ardana well with in reach. Planet Q would appear to be one of those worlds.

In TAS (not canon I know) the Enterprise was apparently sent out to arrest Mudd. They also arrested Bele or Lokai I can't remember who so I think in some capacity they are the law or help out the law.
Of course in an ideal situation it shouldn't be Kirk's ship who investigates Kodos as Kirk has a personal interest.
But who else was there to do it? Get say the Potemkin to look into it and Kodos has disappeared.

 

[Belz...]

Point being, Kirk wasn't necessarily the same in every detail, either.

That's a thing with fictional characters: they change with the writer, sometimes significantly.

 

[Timo]

Then again, it would be a bit odd for the person not to change when subjected to the adventures dreamed up by those changing writers.

That is, the writers don't just change the character - they also provide justification for the changes, often unwittingly. And even implicitly, because even if no episode exactly features the sort of experience that would make Scotty stop hating women or Kirk start being lenient about mutiny, the sheer spectrum of adventures shown implies that there could have been a major event that had this specific effect.

As for the law-in-the-frontier thing, we're not just dealing with anachronistic Wild West or High Seas law there, but with a fair deal of futurism as well. Remember that criminals don't get punished in the TOS reality - they get cured. Their schemes may get foiled, but that's about as much suffering as they will experience for their offenses.

Pursuing of criminals is a fundamentally different process, then: there is no element of "making a warning example" out of a fugitive, as nothing bad will happen to him or her even if caught. If a fugitive fleeing makes the crimes stop for good, say, then there is no motivation to pursue.

Does the society really need designated thief-takers, then? Dealing with crime isn't purely an exercise of state violence against the individual there. What the "police" do isn't all that difficult from what civilians would do anyway, that is, try to talk the offender out of offending.

It may not be a case of Starfleet being the only police force extant (as the evidence heavily indicates), but of there existing no police force of any sort, the concept being outdated. Crimes are dealt with on the spot, the state exerts minimal influence, and there is no need for "due process" whatsoever.

It would be different if the brainwashing described in "Mudd's Women", "Conscience of the King", "Dagger of the Mind" etc. had downsides and there existed a need to avoid false positives in crime eradication. But this doesn't seem to be the case: brainwashing doesn't make Mudd or Garak or Yates or Paris any less a loveable rascal or thoughtful character, nor incapable of committing further crime. It just weans them from repeating the specific crime they were accused of originally, and apparently very, very well at that.

In an environment like this, it's all the more effective when our heroes are disgusted by the excesses of Dr. Adams or when nuKirk goes on a quest of vengeance...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

I don't have any problem with nuKirk's actions once he took command of the Enterprise.

Maybe he shouldn't have punched Khan in the face after arresting him but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except that you seem to be applying 24th-century assumptions about a tamer, more stable Federation, which are anachronistic when applied to the TOS setting.

Now that's just plain insulting!

Picard always had Starfleet Command hovering over him, just a phone call away, but for every TOS episode where Kirk got live orders from a commodore or admiral, there was one where they were two or three weeks away from getting an answer from Starfleet and had to make the decisions on their own. Picard even specifically pointed out once or twice that Kirk operated in a more lawless frontier era. The entire mission profile of Kirk's Enterprise was to patrol worlds on the fringes. That was standard operating procedure. That was the rule, and episodes like "Amok Time" or "Journey to Babel" where they were deeper in the UFP were the exception -- especially in the first season, when they didn't do stories set on Federation worlds because they hadn't thought of it yet.

Which is my point. The ship wasn't always on the lawless frontier. ( and Picard is a pompous jerk ) It's patrol seems to take it through the "heart of civilization" as well. With worlds like Vulcan and Ardana well with in reach. Planet Q would appear to be one of those worlds.

In TAS (not canon I know) the Enterprise was apparently sent out to arrest Mudd. They also arrested Bele or Lokai I can't remember who so I think in some capacity they are the law or help out the law.
Of course in an ideal situation it shouldn't be Kirk's ship who investigates Kodos as Kirk has a personal interest.
But who else was there to do it? Get say the Potemkin to look into it and Kodos has disappeared.

It was Lokai and he was found in possession of a Starfleet shuttle craft that he had stolen from Starbase 4. Kirk wasn't on a manhunt for him, he just ran across the shuttle in open space. Retrieving Starfleet property and transporting the thief back to Starbase 4 is a bit different than playing Colombo on a cold case. A case that doesn't involve Starfleet. A Coast Guard captain wouldn't investigate the Manson Murders.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I can rationalize Kirk getting to keep command, after Spock went ape shit because he had knowledge no one else had (from Spock Prime), and he proved himself while in the chair. Not to mention, the fleet was destroyed Wolf 359 style, so pickings were slim.

However, Pike making Kirk second officer (3rd in command), over other officers that had time in service over Kirk, like say Uhura, for example was a bit of a hand wave. I just write that part off as nepotism on Pike's part.

 

[Timo]

Only the cadet-crewed ships were lost; Kirk wouldn't have faced much competition from that bunch even had they lived.

Did Cadet/Lieutenant Uhura have seniority over Cadet/Lieutenant Kirk? Whatever circumstances allowed these cadets to hold a commission would have allowed either of them to get it first, supposedly; Kirk might be Uhura's senior by a few weeks, months or perhaps even years.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Only the cadet-crewed ships were lost; Kirk wouldn't have faced much competition from that bunch even had they lived.

Did Cadet/Lieutenant Uhura have seniority over Cadet/Lieutenant Kirk? Whatever circumstances allowed these cadets to hold a commission would have allowed either of them to get it first, supposedly; Kirk might be Uhura's senior by a few weeks, months or perhaps even years.

Timo Saloniemi

Is Uhura a line officer? She'd have to be one to get command.

 

[DonIago]

Not to mention that Kirk may have been following the Command track while Uhura was following the Communications track to begin with. There's more to being the better captain than having superior rank.

^Whoops.

 

[BillJ]

Only the cadet-crewed ships were lost; Kirk wouldn't have faced much competition from that bunch even had they lived.

I'm sure those ships had some senior officers aboard in command positions. So they would have to be replaced as the ships were.

 

[fireproof78]

Not to mention that Kirk may have been following the Command track while Uhura was following the Communications track to begin with. There's more to being the better captain than having superior rank.

^Whoops.

Yeah, because I think even McCoy is referred to as a higher rank than Kirk, but is promoted to chief medical officer, rather than as XO, or another command level officer.

Clearly specialization would have some impact, as well as Pike inserting Kirk in to the chain of command at the level he did.

Also, the number of senior level officers that were lost, as well as command school cadets, must have been very high. There is obviously some nepotism, but there is also some demonstration of skills by Kirk as well.