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The Walking Dead Season 5

For now, Rick hasn't crossed "the line". Let's say 1 is where society generally is in the real world, and 9 is the Termites or Joe's Gang, and the line is at 6...Rick's getting close to 5.

Most people don't "suddenly"become evil... it's small steps & comprimises that in and of itself isn't serious, but add it up,will be a stark difference. 5.5 and 5.6 is a small step...but's not far away from "the line".
I think on a scale of 1-10, people in our own society are even apt to decline toward the mid-mark, and some even cross it. The fully civilized among us are the 1s or 0s. I'd say that people devolved to a point of total dehumanization, like the Termites, where people are just livestock, is the Hitler-esque extreme, which I'd call a 10, or maybe 9.5, & then 10 is 100% barbaristic intent toward everyone, which is unlikely to ever be seen as it's completely opposed to survival.

It could be fair to say Rick's been walking the line at that mid-mark but I agree he hasn't crossed it, although there is the potential to end up on the wrong side of it inadvertently, because they have misjudged a group.

What I think is important to note is that the people who are at the low end of this scale are a problem, because they don't live in a civilized world anymore. It's an animated corpse laden anarchy. By all rights, Rick is the one adjusting appropriately, and Tyrese isn't. The paradigm has shifted. Being a 4 or 5 is the new norm. Being a 1 or 2 is an invitation for doom, Especially when most people left will assume that being a 7 or 8 is a smart choice

As for Rick enjoying it. I'd say it's not so much that, as it is embracing wrath, which can indeed be a bad path, but at the same time, when you are in a place where you must unleash the animalistic side of yourself, it's kind of an occupational hazard that you become familiar with that side of yourself. What are you going to do, hate yourself because you have to call upon your brutality? Or accept it so you can endure, like if you suddenly ended up in prison. There is "optimal you" and "under duress you". Prison, war, & anarchy is "under duress you" . So you unleash the "Don't fuck with me" face, and some guys get told the machete has their name on it
Killing Gareth might have been necessary...but Rick's little "remember that machete" bit, and continuous stabs, just like the extra stabbing of Carl's Claimer assaulter (which Michonne shielded Carl)...Rick's starting to enjoy that. THAT is a problem. If it was JUST taking care of necessary business --just stab him once in the head. NOT repeatedly in the CHEST.
Once the barbarian is out of the bag, it's not easy to just walk away. You are ending a man with a machete. There's nothing TCB about that, unless you're Vulcan, a robot, or brainwashed. The misconception is that some folks think having to let go of your civility on occasion is the same as having to abandon your humanity. It's not
 
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Killing Gareth might have been necessary...but Rick's little "remember that machete" bit, and continuous stabs, just like the extra stabbing of Carl's Claimer assaulter (which Michonne shielded Carl)...Rick's starting to enjoy that. THAT is a problem. If it was JUST taking care of necessary business --just stab him once in the head. NOT repeatedly in the CHEST.
Exactly--that is the point. It was not necessary to repeatedly stab the rape-claimer in order to kill him or hack Gareth to end his life; that was a gruesome lust for revenge going far beyond any need of defense or concept of "justice." That--in my view--is Rick going far beyond crossing the line. This is why Glenn had to repeatedly tell Rick that brutality is not who they are but saving people is (S5, E1).

We cannot forget that Rick is the same guy who banished Carol for Karen & David's deaths (committed for no malicious reason--something Daryl did not find outrageous / Tyreese forgave her), and reached an unfounded conclusion that his children were not safe around her, but he sees no challenge to his own character/morality in his revenge killings (again, beyond necessary defense) of the rape-claimer and Gareth.

He justifies his actions, yet again, his own companions (Maggie, Glenn, Tara & Tyreese) found the Gareth killing horrifying.

Few--and this is crucial--ever ask themselves why they are horrified by Rick's act. Remember, they have all lived in the same ZA; none are green to the horrors of this world.

Tara had front row seats (so to speak) in watching the Governor beheading Hershel, so for her to see yet another act of barbarity, does anyone think her expression (in the church) was unjustified--or is she thinking the initial differences between leaders is not so distinct anymore?

Repeatedly, others have had to instruct Rick on what is right, "that ain't us" (Daryl about Rick handing Michonne over to the Governor in "This Sorrowful Life"), or "that's still us" (Glenn about Rick not caring to free the other train car prisoners in "No Sanctuary"), in other words, actions that were not what the group represented compared to their enemies.

Increasingly, attempts to hold on to morality are pushed aside by a man who is turning into The Judge, Jury and Executioner of Extreme Force.

He (Rick) once tried to pull back in order to save Carl from becoming a cold, ends-justifies-the-means killer ("Welcome to the Tombs" / "30 Days Without an Accident"), but that man is gone.

Will he think that his approach is the right path to take if Carl goes to extremes in the mold of his father?
 
I challenge anyone who has just had to use their own teeth to murder an assailant to show restraint or objectivity in their actions thereafter in dispelling the remaining assailants, or likewise when someone who prepped you like a steer is again about to murder your children. We' re talking here about murder like there's an easy version, that Rick is required to implement. This is a fury inducing act. A healthy, sane person brought to the brink of barbarism in needing to hack or stab someone to death may not always be capable of a judiciously measured response. They are in emotional crisis

All these events have taken place in the last 2 or 3 DAYS. It's even debatable whether Rick is sound of mind right now, and not suffering PTSD. No one would claim Rick's judgement is infallible, least of all himself. He usually defers to the more passive people's suggestions, and in the Terminuans case it was actually an error to walk away and leave behind a retaliatory force.

Ultimately, we'll see how this Rick-Gone-Wild stretch will play out when they deal with the Slabtownies. Surely, the more villainous folks there will get some death, and probably some collateral damage to others as well & Rick many go dark on us again, but if and when he's teetering on that edge of being wrongful, he'll never be too far gone to accept a trusting hand that pulls him back, because that's who Rick needs to be, the most dangerous force to be reckoned with among them. He after all, still has the most to lose. It's fair to assume he expects to bear the worst of the awfulness

Tyrese would do "anything" for Judith? Would he chew a guy's throat out? I'm not sure he could. Rick accepts the responsibility for maybe having to do just that, and with that comes releasing animalistic fury. Who realistically could go into that any more judiciously?
 
By all rights, Rick is the one adjusting appropriately, and Tyrese isn't. The paradigm has shifted.

Agreed. And when people were worried that Carl was turning into a cold killer instead of a normal kid, it was more a case that Carl, young and malleable, was adapting to the new world more quickly the rest.

Few--and this is crucial--ever ask themselves why they are horrified by Rick's act. Remember, they have all lived in the same ZA; none are green to the horrors of this world.

Tara had front row seats (so to speak) in watching the Governor beheading Hershel, so for her to see yet another act of barbarity, does anyone think her expression (in the church) was unjustified--or is she thinking the initial differences between leaders is not so distinct anymore?

It's not going to be an immediate, flip-of-the-switch transition. None of them grew up in the ZA world, and adapting to the new life is going to be a struggle. The group grew up with rules and laws and mores that don't fit the world anymore; it makes sense that some of that "programming" would be hard to shed, and harder for some than others. Rick wasn't born knowing how to lead a nomadic tribe, he's learning as he goes along and just trying to survive. There should be rough spots.
 
I challenge anyone who has just had to use their own teeth to murder an assailant to show restraint or objectivity in their actions thereafter in dispelling the remaining assailants, or likewise when someone who prepped you like a steer is again about to murder your children. We' re talking here about murder like there's an easy version, that Rick is required to implement. This is a fury inducing act.

They are in emotional crisis
Michonne's best friend was captured and killed by the Governor. She watched her friend commit suicide--all due to the Governor's actions. Another friend was beheaded beside her, but when the moment arrived to kill the Governor--filled with rage as she was (and promising to kill him earlier in the episode), she simply ran her blade through him. She did not continue to hack him to pieces after he fell.

She had every opportunity to butcher the man and very personal reasons to torture him--making his final moments that much more painful, but she eliminated the enemy with one strike.

Individuals always have choices. Rick's choice was revenge motivated barbarism, hence several of his own companions being horrified at his act. In order to understand how far beyond the line he's crossed, you must consider the reactions of his companions.


All these events have taken place in the last 2 or 3 DAYS. It's even debatable whether Rick is sound of mind right now, and not suffering PTSD. No one would claim Rick's judgement is infallible, least of all himself. He usually defers to the more passive people's suggestions, and in the Terminuans case it was actually an error to walk away and leave behind a retaliatory force.
Rick did not know how many were left at Terminus. If you recall, in the season 4 finale, a row of gunners were waiting at the fence as Rick and company were trying to escape--in addition to Gareth and others on rooftops, etc. No one can say all of the residents were all being chased/attacked within the borders of Terminus, which means Rick could have marched back into a chaotic situation--and found he and his crew in fight they could not win.

To top it all off, when an experienced soldier like Abraham instantly questioned Rick's plan, that should tell anyone that Rick was operating on something other than concerns of pure defense.
 
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Abrahams' motives are clearly opposed to the betterment of the group, hence why he's not with them anymore. I won't be taking his perspective as gospel despite his uniform. Continued fighting was dangerous, yes, but necessary if you have the long term preservation of the group as your prime goal. Until now, Abe's prime goal is to get to D.C with Eugene alive.

Plus, the plan wasn't to march back into terminus. The plan was to stick to the perimeter and snipe the ones fleeing, especially if you see ones who are clearly combatants. It's a sound tactic. In fact, if Rick hadn't so obviously been driven by revenge, the others may have been more amenable. Rick's dark streak tends too rub them wrong and they oppose him because of how he' s acting, not because he's wrong

Frankly, Michonne is more tempered than Rick. Actually, Daryl is now too. That doesn't mean Rick is immoral. It just means he's more emotional. Perhaps slashing into someone with a machete is not easy for everyone, and maybe he gets consumed by his emotions more than some of the others, but he always listens to opposing views even when he's gone dark. Want to talk about Abraham? He's the same exact way about killing & fighting as Rick. Having the "civilized" meter run into the red from time to time is par for the course now. Even Glenn' s done it

Bottom line, there' s no civilized way to destroy a human being bent on destroying you. It's all barbaric. That's their lives now. Some people cope better in the heat of it, and when the dust settles, some people lead and some follow. Those traits may not always be mutually inclusive. Not everyone Rick has killed is fueled by bloodlust and revenge
 
Abrahams' motives are clearly opposed to the betterment of the group, hence why he's not with them anymore. I won't be taking his perspective as gospel despite his uniform.

Furthermore, Abraham was just as involved in the slaughter as Rick was. Abraham has clearly not been in his right mind in a long time.

I think everyone handles it differently. For every Michonne there's a Sasha.
 
You know, the actual morality of what Michonne did to the Governor is even debatable . She didn't kill him in one swift civilized blow. She impaled him and purposefully left him to turn. That's pretty vengeful. Her vengeance runs cold, Rick's runs hot. Who's to say which is worse? I still think they are both on the just side of the line
 
Here it comes...




Abrahams' motives are clearly opposed to the betterment of the group, hence why he's not with them anymore. I won't be taking his perspective as gospel despite his uniform. Continued fighting was dangerous, yes, but necessary if you have the long term preservation of the group as your prime goal. Until now, Abe's prime goal is to get to D.C with Eugene alive.

Plus, the plan wasn't to march back into terminus. The plan was to stick to the perimeter and snipe the ones fleeing, especially if you see ones who are clearly combatants.

Wait a second...Rick said nothing about "especially if you see ones who are clearly combatants." Rick's statement was about everyone--no matter their status. If they were from Terminus, he wanted to kill them, which illustrates just how vengeance / brutality thirsty he was.

It's a sound tactic. In fact, if Rick hadn't so obviously been driven by revenge, the others may have been more amenable. Rick's dark streak tends too rub them wrong and they oppose him because of how he' s acting, not because he's wrong
It is action--not just behavior, hence the reason four companions did not agree with his butchering of Gareth. Their faces would never have expressed revulsion if Rick put a single bullet in his head. Rick made a promise to kill Gareth with the machete earlier that day. That was his desire all along.

Frankly, Michonne is more tempered than Rick. Actually, Daryl is now too. That doesn't mean Rick is immoral. It just means he's more emotional. Perhaps slashing into someone with a machete is not easy for everyone, and maybe he gets consumed by his emotions more than some of the others, but he always listens to opposing views even when he's gone dark. Want to talk about Abraham? He's the same exact way about killing & fighting as Rick. Having the "civilized" meter run into the red from time to time is par for the course now. Even Glenn' s done it
"From time to time" is not Rick's mentality. From the second half of season 4 to the climax of the Terminus affair, he's been on a one way path of extreme revenge / brutality. Where are the toned down situations involving a conflict?

You know, the actual morality of what Michonne did to the Governor is even debatable . She didn't kill him in one swift civilized blow. She impaled him and purposefully left him to turn. That's pretty vengeful. Her vengeance runs cold, Rick's runs hot. Who's to say which is worse? I still think they are both on the just side of the line

Running the Governor through was a single, mortal wound. The idea of leaving him to turn as being some sort of vengeance does not really sell, since that's sort of an assumption that the victim will endure something dreaded once they have turned. They will not, as there's no evidence of their living conscience after death, so they are just another walker. The sword and resultant pain was the revenge.
 
I don't have time to go to into detail...but GREAT debate here...a lot of it depends on how you see people

It's intense, but let's keep this up!
 
Wait a second...Rick said nothing about "especially if you see ones who are clearly combatants." Rick's statement was about everyone--no matter their status. If they were from Terminus, he wanted to kill them, which illustrates just how vengeance / brutality thirsty he was.
Yeah, I added that part as commentary. The truth is that all the people left were enemy combatants, who ended up tracking & hunting them

It is action--not just behavior, hence the reason four companions did not agree with his butchering of Gareth. Their faces would never have expressed revulsion if Rick put a single bullet in his head. Rick made a promise to kill Gareth with the machete earlier that day. That was his desire all along.
I went back to rewatch, because I see what you're getting at, but that scene is not all about Rick. Maggie, Glenn & Tara's reactions were not just about Rick. They were about everyone. Michonne & Abraham bludgeon people to death, & Sasha knife hacks a person's throat open. I take exception to Tyrese & Gabriel's reactions. They are clearly not up to the task of living in this world, and since no one says anything at all about the choice to end those people the way they did, it's a leap to say they don't agree with it. They just find it more distasteful. Is it more distasteful than not having a bullet when you need it?

From time to time" is not Rick's mentality. From the second half of season 4 to the climax of the Terminus affair, he's been on a one way path of extreme revenge / brutality. Where are the toned down situations involving a conflict?
One example is that he murdered one of Joe's gang by strangulation, and he murdered two of the Terminuans in the church with one silenced bullet a piece, because that was the needed action, and the remaining ones died without spending valuable ammo. It's not like he's killing people all the time. He kills them when he has to and in the way he has to, and the way he has to do it for it to be done by him is for him to release rage. That he didn't go down there and keep executing people at Terminus is evidence that he is not fueled only by bloodlust. He was persuaded out of it... even though he wasn't wrong, and only just got out of a raging fury of combat

idea of leaving him to turn as being some sort of vengeance does not really sell, since that's sort of an assumption that the victim will endure something dreaded once they have turned. They will not, as there's no evidence of their living conscience after death, so they are just another walker. The sword and resultant pain was the revenge.
She impaled him. It was not a death blow, it was a fatal wound that would take a long excruciating time to kill him, and then he'd turn, which since the majority of the characters have an aversion to it, whether it's a torture or not, is an act of vengeance. If she'd wanted him to die civilly, she'd have just ended him in one strike as you're suggesting. It took someone else to put a bullet in him & finish him off. She wanted him to suffer

Rick's murder of Gareth on the other hand, though snarky with his remark about the promise, was more of a single death blow on that first hit than Michonne's. He likely hacked right through his skull. The rest of the time he's just releasing fury on a corpse. It's not that much different with Carl's rapist, except the blade was smaller & the job of slaughtering someone was more difficult. Daryl stomps a Claimer's skull to pieces. Every murder in the church is equally as gruesome as Rick's, especially Abraham, who furiously bashed a skull apart with a rifle butt

They have evoked Rick's rage, in all these cases, but when the dust settles, he's still a good man. I'd take that kind of man in this kind of world over someone struggling with what needs to be done, like Tyrese, any day of the week, and clearly... so would everyone else, or they'd have stopped hanging with him by now, or at least spoken up about the brutality, but they don't, because they all know they SHARE in it

It is the most awful world a human can live in, where every person you meet might be someone you may need to kill. What you're saying is that Rick is a bad person for surviving the only way he can... brutally. That's not what The Governor or Gareth were doing. They were feeding and thriving on the weakness of others. There's a distinct difference

Rick is the front man, and therefore you seem to be focused more intently on his reaction to the world, but it's not all that far removed from what many of the others are doing. In fact, I'd say Abraham is making a run for the crown of the most brutal character
 
Well, there's a couple more examples of when Rick would have them bring the hurt & lets others reason with him to be more non-violent. Given how it ended, I can't be sure this will go down with all those good intentions intact, but as long as he is willing to be reasonable, then he's still on the moral side of the scale

In fact, I kind of like the new dynamic. The only way you can effectively deal with evil doers is to have a good doer who can think the way the evil doers do. They walk that line. It's an interesting dynamic that Rick is offering the most brutal of suggestions, and then he leaves it to the group to come up with alternatives that allow them to be more righteous, but if they can't, then that's when the dirty work must take place

A lot of good acting in this episode.
 
Tonight's episode: Once again, Rick wanted to kill outright, but had to be convinced to consider a different path.


The truth is that all the people left were enemy combatants, who ended up tracking & hunting them

That still does not erase the fact Rick did not know or care who was left--he wanted to kill everyone.

I went back to rewatch, because I see what you're getting at, but that scene is not all about Rick. Maggie, Glenn & Tara's reactions were not just about Rick.
Rick is the front man, and therefore you seem to be focused more intently on his reaction to the world
Rick may not be their Ricktator anymore, but he still retains a leadership position. They take leads from him, so he was the one who made the first move to kill, and if you look at the edits, the horrified members were watching Rick more than anyone else.

I take exception to Tyrese & Gabriel's reactions. They are clearly not up to the task of living in this world, and since no one says anything at all about the choice to end those people the way they did, it's a leap to say they don't agree with it. They just find it more distasteful. Is it more distasteful than not having a bullet when you need it?
Saying they found it "distasteful" is as mild an interpretation as saying Gareth had unique taste in food. The horrified members fight to survive, but their reaction is the result of not sharing Rick's brutality.

One example is that he murdered one of Joe's gang by strangulation, and he murdered two of the Terminuans in the church with one silenced bullet a piece, because that was the needed action, and the remaining ones died without spending valuable ammo.
The limited ammo line is not based on truth; Rick only said that because he wanted to taunt, then butcher Gareth, instead of taking him out the quick and easy way. As you see, if they were limited in ammo, they would not dare mount a rescue mission to a stronghold occupied by several armed police officers--even after confiscating the Terminus members' weapons.

That he didn't go down there and keep executing people at Terminus is evidence that he is not fueled only by bloodlust. He was persuaded out of it... even though he wasn't wrong, and only just got out of a raging fury of combat
He was prepared to continue arguing the point, but Carol's arrival changed the entire situation.

She impaled him. It was not a death blow, it was a fatal wound that would take a long excruciating time to kill him, and then he'd turn, which since the majority of the characters have an aversion to it, whether it's a torture or not, is an act of vengeance.
Who's to say he would take a long time to die? From the area she targeted, and the blood coming from his mouth, his lung was likely pierced, so with an uncontrolled wound pouring blood into his lung, he was not long for the world, in any case.


Rick's murder of Gareth on the other hand, though snarky with his remark about the promise, was more of a single death blow on that first hit than Michonne's. He likely hacked right through his skull. The rest of the time he's just releasing fury on a corpse.

That was not instant death as seen in Rick's machete strike against Tomas. Gareth was screaming. Since Rick had previous experience killing with the weapon, he had a choice to end Gareth just a swiftly as he killed Tomas. That was not his intention. He wanted to butcher Gareth, with the latter feeling every, agonizing moment of it...as long as it lasted.

so would everyone else, or they'd have stopped hanging with him by now, or at least spoken up about the brutality, but they don't, because they all know they SHARE in it
Daryl does not torture. Even with his stomping on the head of one of Joe's gang, it was to end the enemy as fast as possible, not pull back on the force of the stomping to drag it out.
 
God damn I am getting tired fo the decompressed story telling. It's been what? 4 episodes since the termites were finished off and we still haven't rescued Beth? For fuck's sake. Yeah, "we're not gonna spend all season on the termites". We're gonna spend all season on the day after the termites.
 
Glad to see we got 3 or 4 different storylines all going on at once tonight. Everybody got to do something. (Well, except Carol and Eugene, who were just lying there.)

I liked the ending with Abraham. Pretty believeable reaction to the change in his world. And I loved the close-up shot at the end of his hand picking up the water bottle. Very cinematic. And I also liked that Rosita mentioned that Eugene taught her how to filter water. He clearly can still add some value to the group.

No clue what's going on with Fr Gabriel. (No spoilers from the folks who've read the comics please.) I don't know if he going to go crazy and try to kill people or commit suicide or realize that Rick's group is trying their best and stick with them or what. He's definitely careless enough to lead a herd of walkers back to the church though.

Dawn is also an interesting case. She seemed genuinely good tonight when she helped Beth save Carol. I wonder if there's a chance that she'll turn on some of the bad cops next week to try to help save some of our group.

I liked that Daryl and Tyrese not only tried but were able to talk Rick out of his initial plan to attack the hospital. That said, I think Rick's plan was probably the best way to go. Let's remember, these cops are horrible people. They intentionally hit people with cars, and break their wrist, and otherwise bash them over the head or whatever. So they can kidnap people and make them their slaves or even rape them. They're just awful.

And that's so stupid too. If you see some lone survivor out in the wild, why not just say "Hi, we have food and shelter and protection at the hospital, which has stood there safely for the past 2 years. Come with us if you want to be safe."? Some people would say no, but surely lots of people would willingly walk into that hospital.
 
Glad to see we got 3 or 4 different storylines all going on at once tonight. Everybody got to do something. (Well, except Carol and Eugene, who were just lying there.)

I liked that about this episode as well



No clue what's going on with Fr Gabriel. (No spoilers from the folks who've read the comics please.) I don't know if he going to go crazy and try to kill people or commit suicide or realize that Rick's group is trying their best and stick with them or what. He's definitely careless enough to lead a herd of walkers back to the church though.
I don't think any spoilers are necessary from the comics. I believe - and someone correct me if wrong - the blood stains when Gareth's group got butchered in the church. Fr. Gabriel is having trouble resolving the violence occurring in the church now versus what happened in the past.


I liked that Daryl and Tyrese not only tried but were able to talk Rick out of his initial plan to attack the hospital. That said, I think Rick's plan was probably the best way to go. Let's remember, these cops are horrible people. They intentionally hit people with cars, and break their wrist, and otherwise bash them over the head or whatever. So they can kidnap people and make them their slaves or even rape them. They're just awful.
Rick certainly is having getting his humanity back again. Can you blame him though - they were almost eaten by cannibals.


The camera pan made a deliberate point on the Gospel quotations. Did any one catch if they were the same or different passages?
 
And I also liked that Rosita mentioned that Eugene taught her how to filter water. He clearly can still add some value to the group.

If he recovers---and how will he function next to a man who now despises him? Or will it be a case of Eugene doing something unusually heroic--while sacrificing himself?

No clue what's going on with Fr Gabriel. (No spoilers from the folks who've read the comics please.) I don't know if he going to go crazy and try to kill people or commit suicide or realize that Rick's group is trying their best and stick with them or what. He's definitely careless enough to lead a herd of walkers back to the church though.

Turning violent--or meeting others who he will consider his "protection" against Rick's group (for desecrating the church). I wonder if Judith will play a role in Gabriel's next decisions...

Dawn is also an interesting case. She seemed genuinely good tonight when she helped Beth save Carol. I wonder if there's a chance that she'll turn on some of the bad cops next week to try to help save some of our group.

She helped Beth--however, something particularity awful seems to be in store for the mid season finale, but Dawn has to be a key player in that. It is difficult to see her switch sides. ...and who or what is pulling her strings? She behaves like someone who answers to another, when she supposed to run the hospital.

I liked that Daryl and Tyrese not only tried but were able to talk Rick out of his initial plan to attack the hospital.[/quote]

Notice Rick's expression when Tyreese offered his idea--and Daryl agreed with it. Will he go into hyper hostility mode if that plan goes bad?

And that's so stupid too. If you see some lone survivor out in the wild, why not just say "Hi, we have food and shelter and protection at the hospital, which has stood there safely for the past 2 years. Come with us if you want to be safe."? Some people would say no, but surely lots of people would willingly walk into that hospital.

Like Woodbury, the founders of ZA Grady Memorial think new people have to surrender their lives and world views to the "state mandate" of the alleged sanctuary--or face the consequences. For that kind of group, individual freedom means risk of equally individual unauthorized acts. It is a doomed to fail way to run things, but this is a recurring theme in the ZA world.
 
I didn't see the parallels to Jesus crucifixion until a Variety reviewer pointed these out related to Fr. Gabriel:

Variety
The season’s biggest question mark continues to be Father Gabriel, who definitely isn’t handling the sudden influx of violence and bloodshed into his life very well. After watching Sasha, Tyreese and Daryl dismantling the church around him earlier in the hour, his mental state continued to unravel, and the episode laid the religious allegory on pretty thick in his scenes. First, he seemed disturbed when Carl and Michonne nailed the church doors shut, evoking the imagery of Jesus being nailed to the cross; then he began compulsively scrubbing at the bloodstained wood of the church floor with his hand and wrist, seemingly unable to bear seeing the House of God so tainted. Later, just to hammer the crucifixion imagery home (pun intended), he pried up the floorboards in his office to sneak out of the church unbeknownst to Michonne and Carl, only to find his progress hindered when he stepped on another nail outside, which drove up through his foot. Preferring to ignore that fairly blatant sign that he was probably straying off course, he limped into the wood, where he was set upon by a walker. Though he impaled her on a broken tree stump (or a spear through the side, if we want to labor our metaphor further), he found himself unable to bash her head in once he caught sight of the cross necklace around her throat — was she another congregant he doomed to such a hellish fate?
 
Tonight's episode: Once again, Rick wanted to kill outright, but had to be convinced to consider a different path.
You're not getting it though. With these people who've squared off against them, Rick is taking the position that ultimately they will end up being the bringers of death, which is quite often going to be inescapable in this world, & the others are woefully capable of it as much as he is, BUT he lets the options be heard. That bald cop had a gun on him a long time, & that wasn't a taunt. That was a "Read between the lines" conversation with Daryl, and Daryl GETS IT. He's taking the cue. "Why shouldn't this person be made dead by us right now?", & Daryl lays it out there, for everyone to hear, and they didn't kill him. Daryl's quick on the uptake, and he gets what's happening now. If you want less bloodshed, then lobby for it. Make your case. It's an interesting system, actually
Rick may not be their Ricktator anymore, but he still retains a leadership position. They take leads from him, so he was the one who made the first move to kill, and if you look at the edits, the horrified members were watching Rick more than anyone else.
I don't see that, and these people are not under his command. He is not culpable for what they choose to do. Hell, he can't even keep track of them most of the time
Saying they found it "distasteful" is as mild an interpretation as saying Gareth had unique taste in food. The horrified members fight to survive, but their reaction is the result of not sharing Rick's brutality.
Fine. They found it more unpleasant, but no one has objected then or now, not even Tyrese who only mentions it to Daryl as being something he was not comfortable with. That's not the same as speaking up against it. Rick is demanding that now.
The limited ammo line is not based on truth; Rick only said that because he wanted to taunt, then butcher Gareth, instead of taking him out the quick and easy way. As you see, if they were limited in ammo, they would not dare mount a rescue mission to a stronghold occupied by several armed police officers--even after confiscating the Terminus members' weapons.
Boy that's thin, Man. Of course there's an ammo issue unless someone is crafting ammo for them. That they intend to rescue 2 of their people is beside the point. They'd do the with no bullets
He was prepared to continue arguing the point, but Carol's arrival changed the entire situation.
but he wasn't going to go down there against their wishes, just like he has yet to do so in any situation. He is expecting people to make their case if they want less bloodshed
Who's to say he would take a long time to die? From the area she targeted, and the blood coming from his mouth, his lung was likely pierced, so with an uncontrolled wound pouring blood into his lung, he was not long for the world, in any case.
But it's still not this one strike mercy kill that you seem to be hung up on. Murdering people is messy business, for all of them, and you're focusing on Rick & how he has to adapt to be able to do it
That was not instant death as seen in Rick's machete strike against Tomas. Gareth was screaming. Since Rick had previous experience killing with the weapon, he had a choice to end Gareth just a swiftly as he killed Tomas. That was not his intention. He wanted to butcher Gareth, with the latter feeling every, agonizing moment of it...as long as it lasted.
You're reading the scene wrong. Gareth screams before he gets struck & then the screaming stops on impact. Other screaming is heard while people are bashed & stabbed to death. No suggestion is made directly or in editing that they are looking primarily at Rick. They are looking at a general bloodbath. I'm watching it right now
Daryl does not torture. Even with his stomping on the head of one of Joe's gang, it was to end the enemy as fast as possible, not pull back on the force of the stomping to drag it out.
I don't see any evidence that Rick is torturing people. He's ending people, & it's gruesome, & maybe he wants everybody to know how gruesome a thing it is, because that makes them think about it more carefully, and SPEAK up if they don't want it

Murder shouldn't be easy. I feel you're confusing Rick's coping mechanism of releasing rage on people he's murdering, and his leadership choice of making people force the issue of non-violence. I don't begrudge him either of those things
 
I swear I think this show is trolling me. For the first fifty minutes, I was flabbergasted: they were actually showing up to four different storylines IN THE SAME EPISODE :eek:

Then, Sasha acts like a complete moron and falls for an obvious ploy by Grady Bob (what a coincidence) and I feel like throwing shit at my television. People acting this stupid should not be happening this far into the zombie apocalypse, I don't care how good hearted you are.
 
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