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Declaring Ethnicity

So, at what point do we say we want our future to be better? Yes, that was our past, which we cannot ignore and must teach our children about, and this is our present, which we currently must live with, but there is a better way to live with one another. Isn't there?

And don't we deserve to find that better way without tearing one another up in the process?
Sure, we all agree that we want a better future, and we definitely all want racism to end. But racism is not our past, it's our present. If it were our past than the statistics in that comic I linked to wouldn't exist. If it were our past I wouldn't be having arguments with my coworkers about why it bothers me that the nation's capital's football team is named after a racist slur.

Can't a better way be teaching our children to value and celebrate our differences as much as we value and celebrate what unites us? We are richer as a species for our variety, and if we choose to, we can allow our differences to throw our common humanity into relief. I know that sounds naive and idealistic, but I think it's more pragmatic than "One Human Race."
Without attempting to toot my horn, tsq, that's what I do teach my children. Yes, we are all one race (and I do think that is important), but we have different ethnicities, customs, beliefs, traditions, etc. Honoring both our similarities and our differences is important. How can I look at my children and say, "It doesn't matter who you fall in love with and marry," if I don't teach them we are all the same? But how can I expect them to respect others' value systems if I don't teach them to honor the differences, too?

I'm trying to really hard to walk my talk. Leaving this world better than I found it does matter to me, not only for *my* children, but for all the children.
 
Except you will gladly demean others by saying there's only one human race.
How is acknowledging that there is one human race demeaning people? Humanity is not demeaning. What about our swiftly growing population of "multi-racial" people? Are they "demeaned" by their parentage?

No, I'm pointing out that white people conflated genetics with culture, and while there is no inherent link between the two, they've been treated the same for long enough that certain cultures are associated with certain ethnic groups based around their skin color and appearance. This is why "black culture" exists--not because being black automatically imparts someone with particular cultural traits, but because white people have marginalized and denigrated black people and denied them a place in white culture for so long that black people developed their own distinct culture.
Obviously. What does that have to do with the fact that there's one human race?

The piece of the puzzle you seem to keep missing is that historical white oppression of black people is a crucial component of black American culture. It is central to the black experience, because its effects continue to linger and hurt people, and white Americans continue to deny that it's happening. So, you'll pardon me if "race doesn't exist because science" doesn't handwave the problems we're talking about.
Who's handwaving anything? Maybe the piece of the puzzle that you're missing is that all that historical oppression of minorities that you're talking about is based on the misconception that "non-whites," as you call them, are genetically, or racially, inferior. That belief persists among real racists, like the Klan and Aryan Nation and their sympathizers. So, yes, it is vitally important that there be no question that there is only one human race.

Did you just accuse me of validating, legitimizing, normalizing, or perpetuating racism? Because you're the one who is quite clearly doing that. Here's a clue for you, since you seem to be in desperate need of one: wishing racism away, as you have been doing, will not make it happen. Education is important, yes. So is correct inequities, and having a serious dialogue. There's a whole lot of heinous shit white Americans still won't own up to, and centuries of black oppression we still haven't taken a serious look at correcting--injustices that have occurred within living memory, and some of which continue to occur today. Until we do that, there can be no healing, there can be no harmony, and there can be no end to racism.
By conflating "race" with "hard-fought identities," you are indeed perpetuating racism. You keep repeating this notion that people are trying to "wish racism away," but that's a fiction that exists entirely in your head. People have been fighting racism for decades-- much longer than that, but the people you're talking to have been fighting for decades. Acknowledging that there's one human race, which you have admitted is a scientific fact, hardly indicates that that there's no fight against racism-- it's the foundation that it's built on.

Sorry, RJ, but TSQ and Iguana are right.
Of course they're right. They agree with me. They're arguing over nothing.

You said biologically, we are all human -- I agree, that much is obvious.
Well, there you go.

But that's the end of your acceptance of science, because that's the end of where facts agree with your ideology.
What ideology?

I think ignoring race is a stance based of privilege, and I believe it is wrong ethically, because it does real, tangible harm to people. If you disagree, I'm curious as to why. I am open to discussion, labeling me "pointless" to discuss with is not only untrue, but rude and hypocritical.
Maybe you mean ignoring racism. Which nobody is doing.
 
Except you will gladly demean others by saying there's only one human race.
How is acknowledging that there is one human race demeaning people? Humanity is not demeaning. What about our swiftly growing population of "multi-racial" people? Are they "demeaned" by their parentage?

When you attempt to shut down discussion of race by repeating "there's only one human race," you're demeaning people.

The rest of what you said there is nonsense and I suspect you know it.

No, I'm pointing out that white people conflated genetics with culture, and while there is no inherent link between the two, they've been treated the same for long enough that certain cultures are associated with certain ethnic groups based around their skin color and appearance. This is why "black culture" exists--not because being black automatically imparts someone with particular cultural traits, but because white people have marginalized and denigrated black people and denied them a place in white culture for so long that black people developed their own distinct culture.
Obviously. What does that have to do with the fact that there's one human race?

What does wigglewobble have to do with goobyguppy? Herpy derpy, bafflebumps!

That's about as much sense as your question makes.

Who's handwaving anything? Maybe the piece of the puzzle that you're missing is that all that historical oppression of minorities that you're talking about is based on the misconception that "non-whites," as you call them, are genetically, or racially, inferior. That belief persists among real racists, like the Klan and Aryan Nation and their sympathizers. So, yes, it is vitally important that there be no question that there is only one human race.

Uh, that piece is exactly what I was talking about, so what the fucking fuck are you blathering about?

So you're literally saying we shouldn't take about race because it lets the KKK believe race, as they interpret it, is real? That's a serious argument you're making?

By conflating "race" with "hard-fought identities," you are indeed perpetuating racism. You keep repeating this notion that people are trying to "wish racism away," but that's a fiction that exists entirely in your head. People have been fighting racism for decades-- much longer than that, but the people you're talking to have been fighting for decades. Acknowledging that there's one human race, which you have admitted is a scientific fact, hardly indicates that that there's no fight against racism-- it's the foundation that it's built on.

So you're just completely ignorant of the fact that white people constantly invoke "I don't see why we need to think about race at all when there's only one human race" in order to a) stifle discussion of racism and b) erase people's identities by intimating that their experience doesn't matter. Race does not exist as a biological scientific fact. It does exist as a social construct, one that is still very much with us. Apart from those who use it to promote an oppressive agenda (like the KKK), it's also a shorthand for cultural/ethnic identities that only exist because the concept of race was constructed in the first place.

You literally suggested earlier in this thread that having race checkboxes on forms perpetuates "separatism," so you'll pardon me if I doubt your motives.

Maybe you could do to re-read this paragraph tsq wrote earlier, as it sums up the problem with your argument just fine:

I've never heard a POC tout the "One Human Race" line, because, as CultCross said, it's a very privileged position. I know that it is not your intent, but imagine how dismissive this position feels to a POC. Firstly, when you are not white you can't just dismiss the reality of race because it bangs you in the head every single day -- and yes, it is a reality; we are social creatures, just because race is a social construct doesn't make it any less real. As I said, 50% of who we are is environmental, of which a huge portion is sociological. Second, white people have a long history of using and abusing others based on their race; dismissing the very real differences in the experiences of a white person and a POC in the modern world is an extension of that abuse.
 
What does wigglewobble have to do with goobyguppy? Herpy derpy, bafflebumps!

You just wrote a new Top 40 hit with that one. :techman:

As for team names: Cleveland just has to do what they're already doing - get rid of Chief Wahoo and go with the 'C' logo full-time. And Washington? They should just make their logo a POTATO. ;)
 
Without attempting to toot my horn, tsq, that's what I do teach my children. Yes, we are all one race (and I do think that is important), but we have different ethnicities, customs, beliefs, traditions, etc. Honoring both our similarities and our differences is important. How can I look at my children and say, "It doesn't matter who you fall in love with and marry," if I don't teach them we are all the same? But how can I expect them to respect others' value systems if I don't teach them to honor the differences, too?

I'm trying to really hard to walk my talk. Leaving this world better than I found it does matter to me, not only for *my* children, but for all the children.
It looks like any disagreement we have purely semantic maybe?

thestrangequark said:
You said biologically, we are all human -- I agree, that much is obvious.
Well, there you go.
But that's the end of your acceptance of science, because that's the end of where facts agree with your ideology.
What ideology?
I think ignoring race is a stance based of privilege, and I believe it is wrong ethically, because it does real, tangible harm to people. If you disagree, I'm curious as to why. I am open to discussion, labeling me "pointless" to discuss with is not only untrue, but rude and hypocritical.
Maybe you mean ignoring racism. Which nobody is doing.
So, you take a couple sentences of what I wrote out of context, edit out and refuse to address everything that opposes your stance and everything of substance that I said, after telling me I'm "pointless" to debate with when I've made the effort, ignore everything I've tried to say to the point of asking this of RobMax:
RjDiogenes said:
How is acknowledging that there is one human race demeaning people? Humanity is not demeaning. What about our swiftly growing population of "multi-racial" people? Are they "demeaned" by their parentage?
when I am a "multi-racial" [dismissive quotation marks yours] person right here, right now, trying to talk to you, trying to explain politely why I find your attitude demeaning.

I am at a loss. It's like the Dunning-Kruger Effect with you but for Open-Mindedness instead of ignorance: you seem to think you're the most open-minded person in the world but you won't even acknowledge, let alone consider someone else. And to top it off, you're being a jerk.

I'd ask you: How would you feel if the capital of your country had a major sports team named after a racist slur against your ethnicity,

I am now envisioning a sports team called the Washington Crackers.
:)

Seriously, though, I hope some of what I wrote made sense to you.

Also, my brother posted this to my facebook recently:


heeheehee
 
Also, my brother posted this to my facebook recently:


heeheehee

That's racist! :lol::lol::lol:

See what's awesome about being white is that I have enough power and status that I can dismiss any mockery of my race and ethnicity as being "funny" because I know that negative portrayals are not going to impact my life or future prospects.
Yay for me!
 
I'd ask you: How would you feel if the capital of your country had a major sports team named after a racist slur against your ethnicity,

I am now envisioning a sports team called the Washington Crackers.
One of the contenders for Florida States mascot was "Crackers". (The winner was Seminoles) Atlanta's minor league baseball team was the Atlanta Crackers from 1901 to 1965.
 
1pCXWvp.png
 
When you attempt to shut down discussion of race by repeating "there's only one human race," you're demeaning people.
Repeating a lie doesn't make it come true. ;)

The rest of what you said there is nonsense and I suspect you know it.
The question is, do you know it?

What does wigglewobble have to do with goobyguppy? Herpy derpy, bafflebumps!
All righty then. Good talk. :rommie:

Uh, that piece is exactly what I was talking about, so what the fucking fuck are you blathering about?
If that's true, your tirade makes even less sense.

So you're literally saying we shouldn't take about race because it lets the KKK believe race, as they interpret it, is real? That's a serious argument you're making?
No, I'm the voice outside your head.

So you're just completely ignorant of the fact that white people constantly invoke "I don't see why we need to think about race at all when there's only one human race" in order to a) stifle discussion of racism and b) erase people's identities by intimating that their experience doesn't matter.
I'm sure it happens, but "constantly?" Hardly.

Race does not exist as a biological scientific fact. It does exist as a social construct, one that is still very much with us. Apart from those who use it to promote an oppressive agenda (like the KKK), it's also a shorthand for cultural/ethnic identities that only exist because the concept of race was constructed in the first place.
i.e. "stereotyping." That's not one of my favorite things either.

You literally suggested earlier in this thread that having race checkboxes on forms perpetuates "separatism," so you'll pardon me if I doubt your motives.
Much as I'd love to know what evil "motives" you've cooked up for me, I gotta run. Nice talking to you. :rommie:

when I am a "multi-racial" [dismissive quotation marks yours] person right here, right now, trying to talk to you, trying to explain politely why I find your attitude demeaning.
Well, I'm sorry that you find my inclusive, anti-racist attitude demeaning, but I guess we'll have to leave it at that.
 
RJ has at least demonstrated to me that even a self-described liberal can use "you're the real racists!" against other liberals. Thought that one was the purview of conservatives, but I guess not!
 
You know, RJ, I thought despite our disagreements that you were a good person. Someone who, when another says your words are hurtful, would at least listen and try to understand why. Yet again, you refuse to acknowledge me.

At this point you're just...unkind. And that's really disappointing. And you're making yourself the poster child for White Privilege, which I doubt you want to be. You're not racist, but you're the worst kind of ignorant: willfully ignorant.

Ignore me, whatever. I'm a half Native American woman; I'm used to white men ignoring me when I have something important to say.
 
You know, RJ, I thought despite our disagreements that you were a good person. Someone who, when another says your words are hurtful, would at least listen and try to understand why. Yet again, you refuse to acknowledge me.

At this point you're just...unkind. And that's really disappointing. And you're making yourself the poster child for White Privilege, which I doubt you want to be. You're not racist, but you're the worst kind of ignorant: willfully ignorant.

Ignore me, whatever. I'm a half Native American woman; I'm used to white men ignoring me when I have something important to say.

Don't worry I'll listen to you.
 
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