Did any of Trek '09's backstory happen to the TOS characters?

[Timewalker]

Basically, was there anything that the '09 movie told us about the TOS crew that you then incorporated into your personal continuity?

The only part of that movie I thought could plausibly be incorporated was the scene of Spock refusing to go to the Vulcan Science Academy. It felt more authentic, given the events of the animated episode "Yesteryear."

- Bones's divorce happened in TOS too

Not exactly. It's an accepted bit of Trek lore, dating back to the sixties, and may have even been mentioned in some internal documents, like a show bible or memo, but it never actually made its way onscreen. McCoy's divorce is not mentioned in any episode of TOS or in any of the subsequent movies.

It was something the original writers meant to establish someday, but never got around to.

Are you suggesting that in canon, McCoy's first (and only) marriage was to Natira?

On the other hand, they don't seem to share our human concept of 'friend'.

Of course they do. Spock stated in "Amok Time" that he was entitled to have his friends in attendance. I took that to mean that it's a Vulcan custom for any wedding, not just that specific one.

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Small problem, the launch of the Enterprise (in the prime universe) and Kirk assuming command were two separate events, many years apart. We know there was at least one captain prior to Kirk (Pike) and TAS says there was another (April). Plus there might have been more still.

The interstellar beaming technology comes from the 24th Century of the Prime Universe. Spock gives New Scotty Prime Scotty's formula for Transwarp Beaming. Spock identifies Scotty as follows " You are, in fact, the Mister Scott who postulated the theory of transwarp beaming

Did the movie actually identify the 24th century as when Scotty came up with the theory? And given that Spock says that it was a theory of Scotty's, it kind of sound like it wasn't technology and more like something Scotty wrote a paper on.

My idea was that Scotty analyzed the sensor reading from Gary Seven's transporter beam to come up with the theory of transwarp beaming.

Considering we never saw Starfleet or the Federation possess the ability for interstellar beaming technology ...

It was only a theory, no one in the prime ever built it.

Trek 2009's altered timeline seemed to indicate a higher level of technology.

Other than the fleet seemed to get from Earth to Vulcan fairly quickly (and that might be possible in the prime too), where are you seeing higher technology? To me the size of the ships might indicate lower technology. The engines, reactors, and other equipment on the prime Enterprise (of the same time) being more compact and therefor more advanced.

One of the possible reasons for the alternate Enterprise being so large was to accommodate the large engine room, a engine room that simply wouldn't have fit in the prime Enterprise.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk's father saw the launch of the Enterprise when Kirk took command.

Small problem, the launch of the Enterprise (in the prime universe) and Kirk assuming command were two separate events, many years apart. We know there was at least one captain prior to Kirk (Pike) and TAS says there was another (April). Plus there might have been more still.

Launch here refers to relaunching the ship when Kirk takes command, not the ship's first launch.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Ahh.




.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Doctors don't go to Starfleet Academy.

Bashir did.

As did Crusher

Hardly the only times modern Trek was inconsistent with TOS. Aside from being based on the procedures of the modern Navy, there are several on-screen indications that McCoy never went to the Academy, including his having no clue what to do with Spock once he had placed him under arrest, and much more conclusively, Spock's having to explain to McCoy a phrase used by midshipmen at the Academy.

One does not say "it is a phrase used by midshipmen at Starfleet Academy" to someone who has gone through the Academy.

McCoy, like the doctors, lawyers and chaplains of today, went to some analogue of Officer Training/Development School - a far more abbreviated military training than that given to cadets.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Bashir did.

As did Crusher

Hardly the only times modern Trek was inconsistent with TOS. Aside from being based on the procedures of the modern Navy, there are several on-screen indications that McCoy never went to the Academy, including his having no clue what to do with Spock once he had placed him under arrest, and much more conclusively, Spock's having to explain to McCoy a phrase used by midshipmen at the Academy.

One does not say "it is a phrase used by midshipmen at Starfleet Academy" to someone who has gone through the Academy.

Saying McCoy didn't go to the Academy is different than saying Doctors don't go do the Academy. Yes, in TOS there is evidence that McCoy did not go to the Academy, but none that establishes no Doctors attend the Academy.

 

[A beaker full of death]

You're too intelligent to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Nothing establishes that Captain Kirk ever takes a whiz, either. But the intent of the creators of TOS is quite evident. It's like the Chekov/Khan thing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You're too intelligent to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Nothing establishes that Captain Kirk ever takes a whiz, either. But the intent of the creators of TOS is quite evident. It's like the Chekov/Khan thing.

Hardly the same thing. The intent was that McCoy didn't go to the Academy.

Chekov/Khan thing? Do you mean that Chekov wasn't on the ship during "Space Seed"? That could go either way. The ship has over three three hundred officer and crew, We only see a handful of them in "Space Seed". Of the ones we do see, some of whom are never seen again. Takei wasn't in that episode either. Does that mean Sulu was off the ship?

 

[Timo]

In general, saying "X in Star Trek (that is, TOS, Kirk Trek, the 23rd century adventures, whatchamacallem) must be like this because Star Trek was written in the 1960s when X was like that" is pretty silly, not only because Star Trek (that is, TOS etc) is still being written today, but more because most of Star Trek wasn't written in the 1960s. Indeed, most of Star Trek was never written - it exists as the sum total of everything that was and wasn't written, insofar as the two don't contradict each other (in which case written Trek wins).

McCoy may have attended all sorts of special training regimes, but the Starfleet word for those appears to be "Academy". At least until a different regime is mentioned by name; there is no explicit Trek to prove or disprove the existence of those different names. This is no big deal, as TOS already told that Academy training is flexible in length and depth, and the new movies only reinforce that in every possible fashion.

In the tos series perhaps. The reboot writers had already stated that they use the newest theory about time travel that is quantum mechanics and the creation of quantum realities. One can't use the old theory to explain this story because the writers purposely made the choice to follow the current theory.

Oh, make no mistake - those are bullshit theories. There's no time travel, and "quantum realities" are whatever the writer wants them to be, regardless of whether he writes Hollywood scripts or scientific articles. It's just that Hollywood writing makes more money than Journal of Low Temperature Physics writing.

Furthermore, Star Trek isn't based on "theory" or "science" in any sense of the words. It's purely empirical - what appears to bring in money must be real and correct. If people involved say differently, they are lying to make more money.

From memory alpha

Another bullshit source. There's nothing in that movie or any other to say that "plans for Constitution were pushed back".

This we don't know ...or more correctly we know because the writers said he's our Chekov

The writers don't appear in that movie or any other. There's no point in listening to them if the intent is to find out what goes on in the Star Trek universe. They don't know! Or more accurately, they don't know what the next set of writers will think of the Star Trek universe. And if they don't write it out and film it, their thinking will never become relevant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

You're forgetting that Chekov doesn't have a brother in the Prime timeline. Sulu definitively says in "Day of the Dove" that Pavel is an only child. It's what makes Kirk realize that the alien is inventing memories in order to increase the conflict with the Klingons.

And you'd take Sulu's word over Chekov's own... why?

Because Sulu was in his right mind in that scene, and Chekov clearly wasn't.

Dialogue from Day of the Dove, right after Chekov leaves his post due to his anger at the Klingons.

KIRK: Mister Chekov, as you were. Chekov!
CHEKOV: Sir, let me go too. I've got a personal score to settle with the Klingons.
KIRK: This is no time for a vendetta. Maintain your post.
CHEKOV: Captain!
KIRK: Chekov, maintain your post!
CHEKOV: Don't try to stop me, Captain. I saw what they left of Pyotr, and I swore on his grave I would avenge his murder.
(Chekov dashes into the turbolift.)
SULU: What's Chekov's grudge against the Klingons? Who's Pyotr?
KIRK: His only brother, killed in a Klingon raid.
SULU: His brother? He never had a brother. He's an only child.

And later in the episode:

KIRK: A brother that never existed, a phantom colony, imaginary distress calls, the creation of these weapons. Do you sense a pattern, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: If the alien is creating these events, Captain, it is apparently capable of manipulating matter and mind.

If your takeaway from those exchanges was that Chekov actually had a brother, you're misunderstanding the episode.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Kirk and Spock met at Starfleet Academy.

Not possible. Spock was already on the Enterprise when Kirk was at the academy. See The Cage.

Kirk isn't featured in The Cage, and The Menagerie establishes nothing about Kirk was doing at the time of the Talos IV mission. All TOS tells us is that the Talos IV mission was 13 years ago, that Kirk's Academy days were 15 years ago (As said in Where No Man Has Gone Before and Shore Leave) and that Spock has been in Starfleet for 18 years (Journey to Babel and The Enterprise Incident).

From that data, all we can really say is that Kirk & Spock weren't in the same class at Starfleet Academy. Their years there might have overlapped, but they might not have. Since Kirk comments in Patterns of Force that John Gill was his history teacher at the Academy and says that he'd never met the man, I'm inclined to think that their times there didn't overlap.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

As for the "animal slave woman" thing, we don't really know what the distinction is. Are certain women slaves to Orions? Are certain Orion women slaves? Is this because they are animals, or are certain slaves turned into animals? What does animal mean? Is it an insult, a description of profession, a description of biology, or what? TOS, TAS and ENT all contributed to our knowledge of the species, individuals or profession, but still not enough to even determine which of these three we're actually talking about!

New Visions comic book artist John Byrne made an interesting point on his forum that the "Orion Animal Woman" glimpsed in The Cage has no dialogue, and thus may have literally been an animal of some kind that just resembled a human woman.

I don't know if I believe it myself, but it's a neat theory.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As for the "animal slave woman" thing, we don't really know what the distinction is. Are certain women slaves to Orions? Are certain Orion women slaves? Is this because they are animals, or are certain slaves turned into animals? What does animal mean? Is it an insult, a description of profession, a description of biology, or what? TOS, TAS and ENT all contributed to our knowledge of the species, individuals or profession, but still not enough to even determine which of these three we're actually talking about!

New Visions comic book artist John Byrne made an interesting point on his forum that the "Orion Animal Woman" glimpsed in The Cage has no dialogue, and thus may have literally been an animal of some kind that just resembled a human woman.

I don't know if I believe it myself, but it's a neat theory.

And totally ignores Enterprise saying that they were the ones actually running the whole damned show in the syndicate.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And totally ignores Enterprise saying that they were the ones actually running the whole damned show in the syndicate.

Well, Byrne totally ignores the Enterprise series as a matter of course, as it contradicts TOS in a number of places.

 

[EnsignHarper]

And totally ignores Enterprise saying that they were the ones actually running the whole damned show in the syndicate.

Well, Byrne totally ignores the Enterprise series as a matter of course, as it contradicts TOS in a number of places.

as should we all....

 

[Redfern]

Even if "Enterprise" is not aken into account, even the original series depicted a green Orion woman who not only spoke, but even quoted Shakespeare (though she claimed the prose was her creation), Marta (as portrayed by Yvonne Craig) from "Whom Gods Destroy". Okay, so she was supposedly "insane", hence being a patient at the Elba II facility, but never the less she appeared quite sapient.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Kemaiku]

Even if "Enterprise" is not aken into account, even the original series depicted a green Orion woman who not only spoke, but even quoted Shakespeare (though she claimed the prose was her creation), Marta (as portrayed by Yvonne Craig) from "Whom Gods Destroy". Okay, so she was supposedly "insane", hence being a patient at the Elba II facility, but never the less she appeared quite sapient.

Sincerely,

Bill

Indeed, Marta was fully sentient, albiet mentally disturbed. So we can imply that had the treatment worked, or she not had the problem in the first place, as an Orion woman she would have acted like anyone else.

Even TOS ditched the animal woman thing before it went off the air. The comics (I know they aren't canon) of the 70's had the Syndicate appear, and they were all sentient then too.

 

[johnnybear]

And totally ignores Enterprise saying that they were the ones actually running the whole damned show in the syndicate.

Well, Byrne totally ignores the Enterprise series as a matter of course, as it contradicts TOS in a number of places.

I like this man's thinking!
JB

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even if "Enterprise" is not aken into account, even the original series depicted a green Orion woman who not only spoke, but even quoted Shakespeare (though she claimed the prose was her creation), Marta (as portrayed by Yvonne Craig) from "Whom Gods Destroy". Okay, so she was supposedly "insane", hence being a patient at the Elba II facility, but never the less she appeared quite sapient.

Sincerely,

Bill

Trying so hard to invalidate ENT that he ignored TOS too?

 

[BillJ]

Even if "Enterprise" is not aken into account, even the original series depicted a green Orion woman who not only spoke, but even quoted Shakespeare (though she claimed the prose was her creation), Marta (as portrayed by Yvonne Craig) from "Whom Gods Destroy". Okay, so she was supposedly "insane", hence being a patient at the Elba II facility, but never the less she appeared quite sapient.

Sincerely,

Bill

Trying so hard to invalidate ENT that he ignored TOS too?

+1