Declaring Ethnicity

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm pleased to say that following a campaign, all our local forms include the option "white, Cornish" alongside "white, British". National ones not yet, but they will soon now we're an officially recognised minority.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

quite, quite serious:
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...nal-minority/story-21000471-detail/story.html

That reminds me of this:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo[/yt]

 

[thestrangequark]

The only problem I had was that looking as white as I do, for a time I struggled to identify with my Indian half. Not because I didn't personally identify with it, but because it almost felt unfair to Indians. I saw the kind of abuse my mother and brother received for the sin of black hair and dark olive skin, and I heard all the obnoxious white people who were "one sixteenth Apache," or whose great great great grandmother was a Cherokee Princess, and I didn't want to be one of them.

I swear I had to listen to this all the time grown up. How some great, great, great aunt or something like that was "Indian." I would always roll my eyes and say, "Yeah, sure." I never understood this need for my family to co-op this other culture. Like if we met some Indian's we could whip out this phantom relative who was supposedly Indian. What would that gain us?

People like to stand out, they like to be different. There's a distorted reverence for Indians here, at least for the romanticized version: the Noble Savage that was somehow at once a fierce warrior and magically in harmony with everything around him.

It's all nonsense, but I think it makes some people feel special. I think white people in American often feel somewhat devoid of culture, and some of them try to fill that void with someone else's.

 

[Amaris]

All I know is my family have been in America a long time. I had to go back to the 1600s to find someone actually born in Europe.

I've come to the conclusion that my ancestors slept with damned near everyone, our history branches out so much.

It took me ages to find a foundation pale enough for me, but I finally did. This is seriously what I use, in "Goth White": http://www.manicpanic.com/dreamtone.html

I have naturally red lips and pink cheeks, else I'd look like death.

Like this?

Heh...


...

I swear that was not intentional.

*SQUEE*

I'm sorry, I don't know where that came from.

 

[Nick086]

It was also brought up above that he or she could simply state which of the two they identify with more, and I wonder how they would come to such a decision. If they decide to identify more towards one I feel like they would be ignoring the other. I would think there would be a way to identify as both instead of having to choose sides, as that seems like it would be quite the internal struggle.

Meh. I mean, it can be difficult sometimes, but especially since there are so many mixed people these days, it's not really the most trying of internal struggles. I've had more traumatizing internal struggles over what to order in a restaurant. Though I do like the imagery of a little white chick and a little Ojibwe chick battling inside me. They're battling with Scrabble, though, because I'm an intellectual snob.

Or maybe paintball.

The only problem I had was that looking as white as I do, for a time I struggled to identify with my Indian half. Not because I didn't personally identify with it, but because it almost felt unfair to Indians. I saw the kind of abuse my mother and brother received for the sin of black hair and dark olive skin, and I heard all the obnoxious white people who were "one sixteenth Apache," or whose great great great grandmother was a Cherokee Princess, and I didn't want to be one of them. Plus, I could give J and macloudt a run for their money on whiteness! So I just felt a bit ethnicity-less.

It was hardly an identity crisis, though. I think you're worrying too much. Your kid is going to go through things far more trying than being mixed race -- everybody does. Give her love and support, and she'll have the tools to cope.

There is no such thing as a Cherokee princess.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Yes, I believe that was her point.

 

[thestrangequark]

There is no such thing as a Cherokee princess.

I know that. That was part of the point I was making: I was stressing that I've encountered a lot of people who were completely ignorant of the cultures they were trying to possess, people so ignorant that they claim an unknown ancestor seven generations back was a Cherokee princess and that somehow endows them with Native Americanness, despite the fact that Cherokee princesses never existed. You don't know how many white people I have talked to about the Redskins for example, who, when I say I think the name should be changed, counter with "Well, I'm one sixteenth Cherokee and it doesn't bother me."

I was addressing the OP's point about identity struggles, because for me, people like I've just described made me hesitant to identify myself as Indian, because even though I am half, I have white skin.

 

[HIjol]

I'm waiting for the day "Big Fat Dynamo" becomes an ethnicity, so I can be a god among men.


Anyway, that is something interesting to consider, and now you'll have a new perspective, because your child will certainly share those experiences with you as he or she grows. You've got an interesting future ahead.

J. Allen, oh, Hefty One, may I rule, more or less, at your side?I share the gift of girth, and worship at the Table of Plenty!

"Multi-Ethnic" (or--ack--"Mixed Race") is the fastest growing demographic in the US. Maybe that will be an option by the time your daughter grows up.

Maybe someday nobody will even care anymore.

Would that that would happen soon...

I like knowing about family history. My great grandfather, for example, was blackfoot. My great-Uncle was a direct descendant of John Alden, a passenger on the Mayflower. That doesn't make me anything great, though, and I don't get the people who proudly declare that they have "indian" blood in their family, or their whole family came over on the Mayflower, like it's supposed to make them special or something. That's what always cracks me up about people who are supremacists, as if their blood is untouched and "pure." Please. I don't doubt that most people in the U.S. have some kind of native American blood in them somewhere along the line, because our ancestors were horny bastards.

My brother is the big Genealogist, and it is really cool to see how far back the family goes, and where they lived, what they did, and such. Our blood is pretty "touched", but we came though both Ellis and New Orleans, so there is that much more to experience.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Your blood is "touched"?

PS J, maybe I should be Death for Halloween next year? But I'd need someone to go with me as Dream.

 

[Nick086]

There is no such thing as a Cherokee princess.

I know that. That was part of the point I was making: I was stressing that I've encountered a lot of people who were completely ignorant of the cultures they were trying to possess, people so ignorant that they claim an unknown ancestor seven generations back was a Cherokee princess and that somehow endows them with Native Americanness, despite the fact that Cherokee princesses never existed. You don't know how many white people I have talked to about the Redskins for example, who, when I say I think the name should be changed, counter with "Well, I'm one sixteenth Cherokee and it doesn't bother me."

I was addressing the OP's point about identity struggles, because for me, people like I've just described made me hesitant to identify myself as Indian, because even though I am half, I have white skin.

Ok I see. I know a few mixed Cherokee Native Americans in the Northeast in New York they never had that kind of problem like you did. No one ever cause them any problems. I know there were a few Italian American transplants from the Bronx that treated people mostly males of Irish ancestry like they were subhumans or like second class citizens. I can understand Americans of Russians ancestry didn't what to tell anyone they were of that ancestry during the Cold War era in America. While many of these people were Whites (non communist) leaving Russia when the Reds take over or Russian Jews leaving Czarist Russia/Soviet Union because of antisemitism and the pogrom.

 

[HIjol]

^Your blood is "touched"?

PS J, maybe I should be Death for Halloween next year? But I'd need someone to go with me as Dream.

Ha no, just a response to J about his comment above re: Mayflower and how people think of their pure untouched blood.
Hey, if J can't make it next year, I am a pretty good Dreamer!

 

[thestrangequark]

^OH! Lol, I didn't make the connection to what J had written.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, back in the day, we used to say "there is only one race-- the human race."

And it's important to realise how grounded in white privilege that approach was.

No, it's science. The genetic material that defines what people think of as "race" is an infinitesimal fraction of the human genome. And the variations within these sub-groups is far greater than the variations between them. I recommend Stephen Jay Gould on that topic.

Those who weren't born into the ethnicity our society considers the default don't get the chance to 'not see race' because it inescapably affects their lives from cradle to grave.

Yes, racism is a bad thing. That's why we fight it.

Diversity isn't going to happen by some gradual osmosis toward a common acceptance, we have demonstrated again and again that we have to actively strive for and monitor it. The Stephen Lawrence Enquiry was our big awakening in terms of public policy on the issue, and popularised the concept of institutional racism where systems set up for one group inadvertently disadvantaged others, and a lack of diversity within public bodies leading to a lack of diversity in the external actions of those bodies (creating a feedback loop in which they became even less internally diverse).

Which, of course, is my point. Racism has been institutionalized in every society since the beginning of civilization. Which is why we have to acknowledge that there is only the family of man.

At the dermatologist's office, the nurse was handing out free sample of sunblock. When she got to me, she stopped, looked me up and down, and said, "Oh, honey. You don't need sunblock. You need a ROOF."

One time, my very Irish-looking cousin was walking down the street wearing a miniskirt. Somebody in a passing car yelled out, "Yo, Caspar! Put on some pants! You're blinding me!"

(Though maybe if Dr King's dream becomes reality)

That's the ultimate goal still, at least as far as I'm concerned.

"Multi-Ethnic" (or--ack--"Mixed Race") is the fastest growing demographic in the US. Maybe that will be an option by the time your daughter grows up.

Maybe someday nobody will even care anymore.

Would that that would happen soon...

Indeed. When I was a kid I thought it would have happened by now.

 

[thestrangequark]

Well, back in the day, we used to say "there is only one race-- the human race."

And it's important to realise how grounded in white privilege that approach was.

No, it's science. The genetic material that defines what people think of as "race" is an infinitesimal fraction of the human genome. And the variations within these sub-groups is far greater than the variations between them. I recommend Stephen Jay Gould on that topic.

That is really, really not the point, though.

Variation between individuals is greater than variation between groups, this is true. The "infinitesimal fraction" of the genome that determines what we define as race is insubstantial to group people on anything but the most superficial (and generally meaningless) characteristics, this is true. These variations are nowhere near significant enough to make any kind of predictions or value judgements about a group of people, absolutely. As you say, it is biology. But humans don't function in a vacuum wherein the only thing that impacts us is our genes. Humans have complex psychology, and you can't just disregard it. (And before you recommend I read Gould too, I already have.)

Your position is indeed one of privilege. It totally disregards all environmental impacts on human psychology. If you'll allow me a generalization, human psychology is about 50/50 nature/nurture. You can't just dismiss that 50% environmental impact, and even if you do, it is still factually incorrect, because racism, unfortunately, is a part of our biology. We inherently show involuntary preference to individuals who look like us. This innate tribalism is the root of racism, which is then nurtured in environment. Innate tribalism isn't a good or bad thing, it's just the way we are. I personally think that accepting and learning about this bias in our thinking is integral to ending racism. Just as learning about our other inherent cognitive biases is integral to understanding the world.

Knowing more about ourselves is a good thing. Denying facts is bad, no matter how opposed they are to our ideologies.

I've never heard a POC tout the "One Human Race" line, because, as CultCross said, it's a very privileged position. I know that it is not your intent, but imagine how dismissive this position feels to a POC. Firstly, when you are not white you can't just dismiss the reality of race because it bangs you in the head every single day -- and yes, it is a reality; we are social creatures, just because race is a social construct doesn't make it any less real. As I said, 50% of who we are is environmental, of which a huge portion is sociological. Second, white people have a long history of using and abusing others based on their race; dismissing the very real differences in the experiences of a white person and a POC in the modern world is an extension of that abuse.

Racism is bad. We are all agreed on that. Prejudging people's character and capabilities based on race is stupid, wrong, and clearly not based in science, we are all agreed on that. However, dismissing the impact of society and societal constructs on human psychology and behavior is equally wrong and not based in science, and can be as damaging as racism.

"One human race" is a lovely idea, but it is not one that is rooted in biological, behavioral, or sociological science.

There are some authors I could recommend on this topic, if you're interested.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

I can understand Americans of Russians ancestry didn't what to tell anyone they were of that ancestry during the Cold War era in America. While many of these people were Whites (non communist) leaving Russia when the Reds take over or Russian Jews leaving Czarist Russia/Soviet Union because of antisemitism and the pogrom.

I'm not sure why you even mentioned this, but I'll bite...

All the Jewish immigrants from the Russian Empire and USSR whom I know identify primarily as Jewish, not as Russian or Ukrainian or Georgian or whatever. "Jewish" was legally an ethnicity there. Those who hid their family background at some point did so out of fear of antisemitism and pogroms, as you said.

My grandmother hid her Jewish ancestry, even from my mother and me. However, we were all very open about our Russian origins, straight through the Cold War. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing anyone (not just members of my own family) express fear of being recognized as having Russian ancestry.

 

[Nick086]

hmmm I knew a guy who is of German ancestry his family told their children they were of Polish ancestry because of World War II. He was in my German language class.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Well that was a waste of my time.

 

[Nick086]

Well that was a waste of my time.

check again

 

[Tora Ziyal]

I can understand Americans of Russians ancestry didn't what to tell anyone they were of that ancestry during the Cold War era in America. While many of these people were Whites (non communist) leaving Russia when the Reds take over or Russian Jews leaving Czarist Russia/Soviet Union because of antisemitism and the pogrom.

I'm not sure why you even mentioned this, but I'll bite...

All the Jewish immigrants from the Russian Empire and USSR whom I know identify primarily as Jewish, not as Russian or Ukrainian or Georgian or whatever. "Jewish" was legally an ethnicity there. Those who hid their family background at some point did so out of fear of antisemitism and pogroms, as you said.

My grandmother hid her Jewish ancestry, even from my mother and me. However, we were all very open about our Russian origins, straight through the Cold War. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing anyone (not just members of my own family) express fear of being recognized as having Russian ancestry.

hmmm I knew a guy who is of German ancestry his family told their children they were of Polish ancestry because of World War II. He was in my German language class.

Well that was a waste of my time.

Well that was a waste of my time.

check again

Lesson learned: always quote what I'm responding to, so the person can't go back and totally change it. Bye-bye, Nick.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I don't know if my folk were more Saxon or Celtic, so I just leave the ethnic bit be. It's all silly, anyway. White and black don't mean a thing, and hispanic is probably dodgy. Japanese and Chinese are a bit more narrowed-down. Considering how much ethnic mixing is going on these days, sooner or later the bureaucrats are going to have to stop bothering to keep those forms updated. There's too much IDIC going on for their little pigeonholes!

 

[thestrangequark]

^White and black mean a lot more when you're not white.