Missy's Revelation (spoilers)

[OmahaStar]

I wasn't sure what to think about this at first. Not because I'm against the idea of Time Lords changing genders, mind you. I just thought it was too obvious. From the moment she appeared in Deep Breath, it seemed like that's who she was, but where is the twist?

But the more I think about it, the more I love the idea that she really is the Master.

Way back in the second episode in 2005, Cassandra makes an off-hand remark about when she was a little boy. Since there was never a follow-up to that, we (the audience) are still unsure whether that should be taken as a mistaken memory - as in, she's been a flap of skin for so long she truly has no idea what gender she is - or if she was born as a male and transitioned into female.

If this really is the Master, I think this is the first time we've seen a Trans character on-screen in Doctor Who. That is huge. That is remarkable. Now that the drums inside her head have stopped, for the first time, she can be comfortable in her own skin, and she finally is. I think that's brilliant.

What do you think?

 

[doubleohfive]

I don't have a problem with Time Lords, the Doctor, or apparently, the Master being female or someday regenerating as such. If it is the Master, I am of course quite interested to see what sort of trouble the Mistress will get up to. I do agree as well that there are plenty of implications and avenues to explore, storywise. I just don't find Moffat to be particularly adept at writing credible female characters.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Clara, Amy, and River were all great characters. Looking further back, Reinette and Sally Sparrow are great too. I don't understand your criticism.

Mr Awe

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Changing genders wouldn't make the Master trans though, would it? She actually changed genders and AFAICT she was never uncomfortable with her regenerated body to begin with. Though I'd like to see her surprise at it. It is great that we're seeing something that gives ideas on the topic of gender while offering a perspective completely alien to any of us (though not particularly unique - even Trek has done it). But it is probably too far out to make any direct parallels with the real people in the real world.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I wasn't sure what to think about this at first. Not because I'm against the idea of Time Lords changing genders, mind you. I just thought it was too obvious. From the moment she appeared in Deep Breath, it seemed like that's who she was, but where is the twist?

To see if Moffat is lying or not.

But the more I think about it, the more I love the idea that she really is the Master.

I loved the idea from the start. To me, it makes the concept of regeneration even wilder if a Time Lord can change (either deliberately or randomly) every aspect--shape, age, skin color, and gender--while retaining the memories, experiences, and some motivations of previous incarnations.

 

[doubleohfive]

^ Clara, Amy, and River were all great characters.

River was interesting before they Mary Sue'd her up and shoved her down our throats ever four or five episodes.

Clara was great in series 7 when we were all still wondering about the whole "Impossible Girl" stuff but since then, she's been a bore. (NOTE: Jenna Coleman is fantastic in the role either way, she just hasn't been given much to do this season in my opinion.)

Amy was probably the worst of them all.

Looking further back, Reinette and Sally Sparrow are great too. I don't understand your criticism.

Mr Awe

...characters who originated and were presented during the Davies run. As showrunner, its impossible for me to believe that though they may have been Moffat's creations, Davies wouldn't have had significant input in how they were presented on television.

Speaking of Davies, let's look at what he did with his companions:

Rose: Started out as a shop girl, ended up becoming a time warrior badass who ultimately crossed dimensions to save not only her new world but back again to save ours.

Martha: Started out as a medical student, ultimately married former companion Mickey after finishing her doctorate, basically running UNIT, joining Torchwood, and in her final appearance, still fighting the bad guys to save the day.

Donna: A temp from Chiswick and unlucky in love who literally saved the whole of creation and everything we know but had to give it all up so she could keep her measly life. And even then, she didn't want to. Certainly her fate is the most tragic of the modern Who Companions, but her story is immutably the best of the entire 8 series.

In each case, the companions were better off when the Doctor left them. Rose got her father (and ultimately her own "Doctor.") Martha achieved her goal of becoming a Doctor and saving the world. Donna actually realized she did matter and made a huge difference in the lives of innumerable people and will always be remembered for that, even if she doesn't remember it herself.

Then we come to Amy.

Amy, who married her childhood sweetheart, had a baby girl, lost her baby girl, got to know her baby girl, was left behind for 20 years on some planet and completely ignored that her husband waited for her for 2,000 years by her side and protected her because she was still angry about how she got stranded in "The Girl Who Waited," became a model, tried to leave her husband, then ultimately gave up her freedom and her own life, essentially, to be with her husband which, as I'm sure Moffat would like us all to believe, is what every loving wife should do. Though, I suppose we should be glad Amy ultimatley became a writer. At least there's that.

And now, here we are with Clara, who apart from the Impossible Girl stuff, is likely about to have her own baby. Because clearly, that's Moffat's "get out of Companion jail free" card.

So, no, I don't believe Moffat is very good with writing female characters.

 

[Richard Baker]

I did like how Clara rose to the occasion in Flatland and assumed the role of the Doctor but I am tired of her using the TARDIS for instant vacations and retaining her home life as if nothing happened. Other companions have had a home connection but it was secondary to what they were doing with the Doctor.

Switching genders is a good idea which has been long overdue.
Rowan Atkinson did it best IMO-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM

 

[Ithekro]

I loved the idea from the start. To me, it makes the concept of regeneration even wilder if a Time Lord can change (either deliberately or randomly) every aspect--shape, age, skin color, and gender--while retaining the memories, experiences, and some motivations of previous incarnations

Romana did all of this during her regeneration from 1 to 2. She picked her new face. Then the Doctor questioned her on using someone they knew's face, so Romana did a bunch of quick changes to other species. Short, tall, male, various colors, then reverted to her own first choice and dressed up like the Doctor. He approved of her clothing choice, then gave up on her chosen face and let her just keep it. (This is from Destiny of the Daleks).

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Changing genders wouldn't make the Master trans though, would it? She actually changed genders and AFAICT she was never uncomfortable with her regenerated body to begin with. Though I'd like to see her surprise at it. It is great that we're seeing something that gives ideas on the topic of gender while offering a perspective completely alien to any of us (though not particularly unique - even Trek has done it). But it is probably too far out to make any direct parallels with the real people in the real world.

The trans or not trans is a whole can of worms. Yeah, I'm not sure it's the same via (Timelord) regeneration as via (real world) surgery.

Like I said elsewhere, if it's well written, I think it'll be a lot of fun. As long as they don't cop out & have her regenerate at the end.

As far as the surprise? We can only hope she looked down the front of her blouse and said "look, I've got etheric beam locators!" or at least "Dalek bumps!"

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Clara, Amy, and River were all great characters.

River was interesting before they Mary Sue'd her up and shoved her down our throats ever four or five episodes.

Clara was great in series 7 when we were all still wondering about the whole "Impossible Girl" stuff but since then, she's been a bore. (NOTE: Jenna Coleman is fantastic in the role either way, she just hasn't been given much to do this season in my opinion.)

Amy was probably the worst of them all.

Looking further back, Reinette and Sally Sparrow are great too. I don't understand your criticism.

Mr Awe

...characters who originated and were presented during the Davies run. As showrunner, its impossible for me to believe that though they may have been Moffat's creations, Davies wouldn't have had significant input in how they were presented on television.

Speaking of Davies, let's look at what he did with his companions:

Rose: Started out as a shop girl, ended up becoming a time warrior badass who ultimately crossed dimensions to save not only her new world but back again to save ours.

Martha: Started out as a medical student, ultimately married former companion Mickey after finishing her doctorate, basically running UNIT, joining Torchwood, and in her final appearance, still fighting the bad guys to save the day.

Donna: A temp from Chiswick and unlucky in love who literally saved the whole of creation and everything we know but had to give it all up so she could keep her measly life. And even then, she didn't want to. Certainly her fate is the most tragic of the modern Who Companions, but her story is immutably the best of the entire 8 series.

In each case, the companions were better off when the Doctor left them. Rose got her father (and ultimately her own "Doctor.") Martha achieved her goal of becoming a Doctor and saving the world. Donna actually realized she did matter and made a huge difference in the lives of innumerable people and will always be remembered for that, even if she doesn't remember it herself.

Then we come to Amy.

Amy, who married her childhood sweetheart, had a baby girl, lost her baby girl, got to know her baby girl, was left behind for 20 years on some planet and completely ignored that her husband waited for her for 2,000 years becaxuse she was still angry about how she got stranged in "The Girl Who Waited," became a model, tried to leave her husband, then ultimately gave up her freedom and her own life, essentially, to be with her husband, as I'm sure Moffat would like us all to believe, is what every loving wife should do. Though, I suppose we should be glad Amy ultimatley became a writer. At least there's that.

And now, here we are with Clara, who apart from the Impossible Girl stuff, is likely about to have her own baby. Because clearly, that's Moffat's "get out of Companion jail free" card.

So, no, I don't believe Moffat is very good with writing female characters.

We just fundamentally disagree on the characters then.

I liked Rose for awhile. Donna was my favorite from the RTD ere. I even liked Martha, not always a popular choice. Though her pining did get a little old, but I still liked her character. "Smith and Jones" is perhaps the best intro story for a new companion ever.

You mention specific plot points related to the characters. Rose crossing dimensions is a plot point, not characterization. Ditto with Martha running UNIT. Any writer can tack those plot points onto to a character, but it's not characterization. (Nothing against those characters, I generally like them. If you want plot points for characterization, River Song probably takes the cake!)

I'd stack up Moffat's female character's against RTDs any day of the week. For the most part, I enjoy both sets.

Mr Awe

 

[Professor Zoom]

Clara was great in series 7 when we were all still wondering about the whole "Impossible Girl" stuff but since then, she's been a bore. (NOTE: Jenna Coleman is fantastic in the role either way, she just hasn't been given much to do this season in my opinion.)

Most of your post I agree with except for this. In Series 7 she was not much more than a McGuffin. She wasn't much more than a label.

She was much more interesting once the "mystery" was removed. But not much.

I feel she's more interesting with Capaldi's Doctor than with Smith's... their antics and grinning and kissy eyes at each other got old very quick. I feel like in Series 8, she has to grow up, and it's been hard, and I think that's been really interesting.

OT: I would love it if they talk about gender more, but, I doubt that's going to happen. I just don't think Moffat is equipped, nor interested, in telling really human stories. I think he likes his puzzles and his "twists" but, beyond that.

I feel like that's the difference between the two show runners. Davies was about human characters, human stories (even if it's an alien at the center). While Moffat likes the twisty turning nature of time travel, the puzzles of it all.

 

[doubleohfive]

^ Clara, Amy, and River were all great characters.

River was interesting before they Mary Sue'd her up and shoved her down our throats ever four or five episodes.

Clara was great in series 7 when we were all still wondering about the whole "Impossible Girl" stuff but since then, she's been a bore. (NOTE: Jenna Coleman is fantastic in the role either way, she just hasn't been given much to do this season in my opinion.)

Amy was probably the worst of them all.

Looking further back, Reinette and Sally Sparrow are great too. I don't understand your criticism.

Mr Awe

...characters who originated and were presented during the Davies run. As showrunner, its impossible for me to believe that though they may have been Moffat's creations, Davies wouldn't have had significant input in how they were presented on television.

Speaking of Davies, let's look at what he did with his companions:

Rose: Started out as a shop girl, ended up becoming a time warrior badass who ultimately crossed dimensions to save not only her new world but back again to save ours.

Martha: Started out as a medical student, ultimately married former companion Mickey after finishing her doctorate, basically running UNIT, joining Torchwood, and in her final appearance, still fighting the bad guys to save the day.

Donna: A temp from Chiswick and unlucky in love who literally saved the whole of creation and everything we know but had to give it all up so she could keep her measly life. And even then, she didn't want to. Certainly her fate is the most tragic of the modern Who Companions, but her story is immutably the best of the entire 8 series.

In each case, the companions were better off when the Doctor left them. Rose got her father (and ultimately her own "Doctor.") Martha achieved her goal of becoming a Doctor and saving the world. Donna actually realized she did matter and made a huge difference in the lives of innumerable people and will always be remembered for that, even if she doesn't remember it herself.

Then we come to Amy.

Amy, who married her childhood sweetheart, had a baby girl, lost her baby girl, got to know her baby girl, was left behind for 20 years on some planet and completely ignored that her husband waited for her for 2,000 years becaxuse she was still angry about how she got stranged in "The Girl Who Waited," became a model, tried to leave her husband, then ultimately gave up her freedom and her own life, essentially, to be with her husband, as I'm sure Moffat would like us all to believe, is what every loving wife should do. Though, I suppose we should be glad Amy ultimatley became a writer. At least there's that.

And now, here we are with Clara, who apart from the Impossible Girl stuff, is likely about to have her own baby. Because clearly, that's Moffat's "get out of Companion jail free" card.

So, no, I don't believe Moffat is very good with writing female characters.

We just fundamentally disagree on the characters then.

I liked Rose for awhile. Donna was my favorite from the RTD ere. I even liked Martha, not always a popular choice. Though her pining did get a little old, but I still liked her character. "Smith and Jones" is perhaps the best intro story for a new companion ever.

You mention specific plot points related to the characters. Rose crossing dimensions is a plot point, not characterization. Ditto with Martha running UNIT. Any writer can tack those plot points onto to a character, but it's not characterization. (Nothing against those characters, I generally like them. If you want plot points for characterization, River Song probably takes the cake!)

I'd stack up Moffat's female character's against RTDs any day of the week. For the most part, I enjoy both sets.

Mr Awe

Now you're missing my point.

First of all: I can't believe I forgot to include Sara Jane earlier but even she has a better story/presentation than what Moffat has done with his female characters.

It's not about characterization, it's about the scope of what Moffat's female characters are capable of doing vs. what we've seen from the Davies era female characters.

Even the one-offs like Adelaide Brooke and Astrid or the Lady de Souza from "Planet of the Dead" had better arcs and ultimate resolutions than any of the women from Moffat's tenure.

Look at the specials.

Adelaide Brooke commits suicide even though she's home safe and sound because she knows history has to proceed as it is supposed to, even though the Doctor decides to ignore that fundamental law of time travel.

Lady Christina de Souza "gets away" in the end despite very much being a criminal, in a grand exit from an otherwise mediocre episode, off to have more adventures of her own. Ditto with Jenny at the end of "The Doctor's Daughter."

Astrid sacrifices herself to help save everyone in "Voyage of the Damned." Even Donna is the one responsible for saving the day in "The Runaway Bride," before anyone even had a glimmer of an idea that she would be the companion in Series 4.


Now, we come to Moffat's specials.

Abigail in "A Christmas Carol" is just window dressing for Kazran Dumbledore, until he decides to take her out to play with her and ultimately her life is cut short because of this selfishness.

Madge, in "The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe" is a lonely housewife waiting for her husband to return and who ultimately, gets him back thanks to the intervention of the Doctor.

Clara has very little to do in "The Time of the Doctor" because he keeps sending her away after she tries to introduce him as her boyfriend to her family and he shows up naked, until he brings her back so she can cry and beg for the Time Lords to give him another chance.

Meanwhile, you have the BBC offering to commission a spinoff series about the Paternoster Gang (among whom are arguably, the only two female characters Moffat seems to be able to write consistently well in this franchise) and he turns them down because he's too busy playing "house" with Doctor Who.

I'd complain about "Day of the Doctor", but on the whole it was largely entertaining and impressive. Too, (and more importantly), I doubt very much Moffat's was the only cook in the kitchen on that one, so it'd be unfair to hold him singularly accountable for any and all misfires there, such as they may be.

Again: it's about the opinions of the man writing the women. It also doesn't help matters that the last actual woman to write an episode of Doctor Who was Helen Raynor ("The Poison Sky") in Series 4. I don't expect you to agree with me, but even that alone should tell you something.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I'm not missing your point. I don't agree with it. That's alright, it's subjective. I tend to like both eras. And, it's funny because many people (not I) think Clara has done too much saving the Doctor--fixing his entire timeline and what not! And, you're saying she hasn't done much. Okaaaay. And, if you want examples of women who have adventures of their own--River Song.

There were rumors that there might be a spinoff as you suggest but nothing concrete. Certainly nothing as specific as he was offered and turned it down! We don't even know for sure if it was even a possibility at all!

Mr Awe

 

[Tom]

So are all Timelords inherently bi-sexual than? So we could have a male/female time-lord couple with kids etc.., then one of them changes there gender, boy would that change things in the bedroom LOL. Well, I suppose that even regenerating to a different same sex body for person in a relationship may prove interesting as well.

So I wonder if the Master would have always wanted to kiss the Doctor as a male or did that desire only just kick in when he became a she. If he then regenerated back into a man would he be able to live with himself for his previous female desires. Interesting...

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ Like with the TARDIS, what we "see" is only the outer shell

 

[Professor Zoom]

So are all Timelords inherently bi-sexual than? So we could have a male/female time-lord couple with kids etc.., then one of them changes there gender, boy would that change things in the bedroom LOL. Well, I suppose that even regenerating to a different same sex body for person in a relationship may prove interesting as well.

So I wonder if the Master would have always wanted to kiss the Doctor as a male or did that desire only just kick in when he became a she. If he then regenerated back into a man would he be able to live with himself for his previous female desires. Interesting...

You are applying human sexuality to an alien. Maybe they don't really think in terms of male and female Gay, straight, bi-sexual.

 

[Spocktapus]

First of all, I fully expect some of what I'm throwing out here will be contradicted by the finale, but I think it's important to remember that if regenerations that change sex are in any way common, Gallifreyan notions of gender are almost certainly quite different than ours.If changing biological sex is as easy as getting a new haircut, it might not make sense to talk of having a single, constant gender identity. Why did Missy regenerate into a female body, assuming that is indeed what happened? (i.e., was it intentional? Is this another 'Tremas' sort of thing?) I'm assuming, given the name change, that Missy identifies as a woman, though that should not necessarily follow merely from their change in appearance. There's a lot that hasn't been established about this facet of Time Lord society, and I'm not sure where the writers will go with this. I'm excited that the show is raising these questions, but I'm not holding my breath about getting any more light shed on them.

I'm also not sure how to feel about Missy calling the Doctor their 'boyfriend'. On the one hand, I'm a bit annoyed that the decision to make this part of their relationship explicit rather than just subtext coincides with the decision to cast a woman in the role. On the other hand, it makes the idea that they have always felt that way about the Doctor impossible to ignore, which personally makes me happy.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

I don't think a TimeLord could be considered Trans unless their inner gender identity didn't match the body they were regenerated with. So, if Missy dressed like a man and experienced psychological pain at being in a female body, then I could see the label fitting. But the Master's very gender identity seems to have changed with the regeneration, matching her body. So she was cis-gendered in previous regenerations and she's cis-gendered now. The fact that all that changed is just something that happens to Time Lords every now and then. (Gendery-wendery-sexy-wexy?)

Unless The Mistress self identifies as trans. In that case, excuse me for denying her identity. : P

 

[Skellington]

So are all Timelords inherently bi-sexual than? So we could have a male/female time-lord couple with kids etc.., then one of them changes there gender, boy would that change things in the bedroom LOL. Well, I suppose that even regenerating to a different same sex body for person in a relationship may prove interesting as well.

I've long wondered about marriage in Time Lord society. Maybe it's "till death, divorce or regeneration", or maybe marriage is a bit less formal and binding than for modern humans given the extremely long lifespans. Certainly there didn't seem to be much to the Doctor and River's "wedding".

I'd be interested to see how a Twelve/River meeting would play out.

 

[Count]

I see it as possible that time lords may be seen more akin to how the LGBT scene is seen now, a subculture. If you think about it, we don't know that general Gallifreyans can regenerate, only Time Lords, and they are a unique class of Gallifreyan. It's entirely possible that this entire thing could be an analogy of the LGBT society and that Time Lord gender roles/preferences/attitudes are different to the general populace (I wanted to say frowned on, but a race that old? I think they're probably past gender preferences anyway at this point).