Thomas Harewood - Would You Kill 42 People?

[Commishsleer]

"Harrison" supposedly was a Section 31 operative with broad powers and resources for several years. If Khan wanted to hoard up superweapons and take over Earth, this would have been his best opportunity to do so. But it seems that he honestly cared more about his extended family (and not just as a means of raising a superior mini-army, because he already had an army of his own through Marcus' sponsorship).

Timo Saloniemi

I get the impression that Marcus had Khan under the thumb for those 2 years with the threat to his 'family'.
But I think Khan always had the Vengeance in mind as his escape ship.
Then something happened to tip the balance of power between them which lead to the bombing of Section 31. I just don't get the idea that he had a great influence and superweapons at his disposal for all those 2 years because I think Khan would have fled as soon as he could. Maybe he was waiting for the Vengeance to be built but then why not just take it leaving Marcus in his wake instead of the S31 warning.

 

[fireproof78]

I am a bit doubtful of Khan actually planning that much ahead. The plotting required for him to recover his family, er, crew, was already byzantine and stretching credibility even when coming from a supposed supermind. The events leading up to him acquiring the Vengeance cannot IMHO have been part of any plausible plan - the acquisition just shows how good Khan is at improvising, and mirrors his antics in "Space Seed".

In "Space Seed", we never learn what Khan's actual plans or ambitions would have been, because Kirk defeats him at Step One, the regaining of his operational freedom. And in TWoK, Khan seems to have abandoned all planning and concentrates on shortsighted personal revenge; Genesis drops on his lap, and he proceeds to do nothing with it. So we can't really tell if Khan expected to again rule Earth one day; or froze himself in order to enjoy a quiet retirement away from his enemies; or had high hopes of founding a space empire of his own.

In ST:ID, it very much seems as if Khan has his hands full recovering the 72 sleepers, and isn't planning on anything more until that is accomplished. Like Genesis, the Vengeance drops on his lap quite unpredictably, and he never has any time to achieve anything with her, but even if he did, his priority might be to withdraw and regroup; and even then, he would be flying just one supership against a mad Admiral (or his madder successors) who no doubt was building an armada of those. And probably had finished building several, or else wouldn't have proceeded with the plan to get the war started. But I digress.

"Harrison" supposedly was a Section 31 operative with broad powers and resources for several years. If Khan wanted to hoard up superweapons and take over Earth, this would have been his best opportunity to do so. But it seems that he honestly cared more about his extended family (and not just as a means of raising a superior mini-army, because he already had an army of his own through Marcus' sponsorship).

Timo Saloniemi

Well, this is all things that I am making inferences based upon my watching of the film, and what contingencies both Khan and Marcus may have had in place.

I'm certain that Marcus' kept a tight grip of control over Khan and his activities as well as a plan in place to eliminate Khan should he become a liability. That is a pretty standard operating procedure for any intelligence organization to eliminate assets before they fall in to the hands of the enemies.

This is how I took it, just based upon the film that Marcus and Khan were playing against each, attempting to outplay each the other. As Kirk says, the standard procedure for such an attack is to convene a meeting of senior officers. Khan knows this and baits Marcus to either hold back his weapons, or start the war earlier than he had planned.

I'm not saying Khan has a stepwise plan in terms of, after I escape I will take the Vengeance and assume my rightful place as ruler of the galaxy. But, I don't think that working with S31 had diminished Khan's desire to rule. It just provided him new tools and new worlds to conquer. He may not have a plan in the sense of conquest, but I think he has a desire to rule.

"I'm better."

"At what?"

"Everything."

I agree that ID mirrors Space Seed more in Khan's improvisation skills but he certainly would be informed about what Marcus would do based upon knowledge S31's procedures. Like I said, once Khan turned rouge and left Earth, Marcus would need to cut his losses, and either kill Khan, starting the war, or let Khan go free as a loose end in enemy territory.

I don't think Khan's attempting to commandeer the Vengeance was improvisation, other than allying with Kirk. Obviously, he would have to improvise that, and convince whoever Marcus sent on the suicide mission to help him.

It's a fine line of planning and improv, but I still think Khan had some plan, as did Marcus.

 

[UFO]

I don't think Khan's attempting to commandeer the Vengeance was improvisation, other than allying with Kirk. Obviously, he would have to improvise that, and convince whoever Marcus sent on the suicide mission to help him.

It's a fine line of planning and improv, but I still think Khan had some plan, as did Marcus.

If Khan had a rational plan, it went out the window when Marcus caught on to it. After that, Khan getting his mits on the Vengeance is the same kind of pure luck the first movie is famous for.

What he hoped to gain in the long term by beaming to Kronos is anyone's guess, but getting hold of the Vengeance seems unlikely to be part of it. In fact his very life was only saved by Spock convincing Kirk to go easy on him. Surely he could have disappeared more effectively than risk that outcome? Did he also, for example, plan for Scotty to save his bacon a second time by preventing the Vengeance from destroying the Enterprise, not to mention then getting him on board?

I'm not seeing well thought out planning here. .

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think Khan's attempting to commandeer the Vengeance was improvisation, other than allying with Kirk. Obviously, he would have to improvise that, and convince whoever Marcus sent on the suicide mission to help him.

It's a fine line of planning and improv, but I still think Khan had some plan, as did Marcus.

If Khan had a rational plan, it went out the window when Marcus caught on to it. After that, Khan getting his mits on the Vengeance is the same kind of pure luck the first movie is famous for.

What he hoped to gain in the long term by beaming to Kronos is anyone's guess, but getting hold of the Vengeance seems unlikely to be part of it. In fact his very life was only saved by Spock convincing Kirk to go easy on him. Surely he could have disappeared more effectively than risk that outcome? Did he also, for example, plan for Scotty to save his bacon a second time by preventing the Vengeance from destroying the Enterprise, not to mention then getting him on board?

I'm not seeing well thought out planning here. .

Like I said, it is not a perfect plan, but a matter of possibilities.

What he hoped to gain from going to Kronos is a couple of possibilities. First, that he could commandeer a Klingon ship for his own purposes, but such a ship could probably not stand against the Vengeance for long. So, not a great plan, but workable for his purpose.

Secondly, he would expect Marcus to begin cleaning up the mess Khan had caused, including needing to get rid of the torpedoes, torpedoes designed for one purpose-to start a war with the Klingons. So, either the Vengeance would come to start the war, and be rid of the torpedoes, or another ship would be sent. Either way, a Starfleet vessel would likely be sent to fire the torpedoes and start the war. That was the point of the torpedoes. So, a Starfleet vessel is sent to the boarder, and Khan now has his torpedoes in his reach.

No, he didn't know the specifics of what Marcus would do, but he had ideas of how Marcus would likely respond to his attack. Again, the whole point is to get the torpedoes, so Khan would set it up for the torpedoes to be used. Either the Vengeance is used to do it, or another vessel is used to do it, and Khan can use either one for his purposes.

Also, if he is on the Klingon Homeworld, he also could look for a vessel that had a cloaking device, allowing him to get closer to the Vengeance without attracting too much attention.

I don't see it as pure luck, but not all according to plan either. To me, and your mileage may vary, it is a big chess game of anticipating moves and responding accordingly. Obviously, Kirk and Co. are a big unpredictable component in this whole framework.

Like I said, this is just me.

 

[UFO]

...
I'm not seeing well thought out planning here. .

Like I said, it is not a perfect plan, but a matter of possibilities.

...

I don't see it as pure luck, but not all according to plan either. To me, and your mileage may vary, it is a big chess game of anticipating moves and responding accordingly. Obviously, Kirk and Co. are a big unpredictable component in this whole framework.

Like I said, this is just me.

While I agree with you that Khan could have tried to capture a Klingon vessel, he didn't do that. He seemed to be just waiting for the Federation to turn up and there was no guarantee they would. He certainly wasn't ready to intercept the Enterprise, let-alone the Vengeance. If Kirk had kept to Marcus' plan, that would have been the end of Khan. Even if Khan guessed right about Kirk, if Scotty wasn't on the Vengeance, Khan was toast anyway.

Actually contrary to my previous statement, if I remember correctly, Khan did have something to do with Scotty being on board the Vengeance at that (lucky, of course that Scotty wasn't on the Enterprise), but there is still no way Khan could be sure how that would turn out.

As for the torpedoes, Khan didn't act as though he expected them to turn up. In fact he only became interested in them when he knew how many there were.

It still seems to me that if Khan had a plan other than to stay out of Marcus' way on Kronos, it stood a good chance of getting him killed. By the way, what if Marcus had had a more reliable patsy to send after Khan than Kirk?

 

[fireproof78]

...
I'm not seeing well thought out planning here. .

Like I said, it is not a perfect plan, but a matter of possibilities.

...

I don't see it as pure luck, but not all according to plan either. To me, and your mileage may vary, it is a big chess game of anticipating moves and responding accordingly. Obviously, Kirk and Co. are a big unpredictable component in this whole framework.

Like I said, this is just me.

While I agree with you that Khan could have tried to capture a Klingon vessel, he didn't do that. He seemed to be just waiting for the Federation to turn up and there was no guarantee they would. He certainly wasn't ready to intercept the Enterprise, let-alone the Vengeance. If Kirk had kept to Marcus' plan, that would have been the end of Khan. Even if Khan guessed right about Kirk, if Scotty wasn't on the Vengeance, Khan was toast anyway.

Actually contrary to my previous statement, if I remember correctly, Khan did have something to do with Scotty being on board the Vengeance at that (lucky, of course that Scotty wasn't on the Enterprise), but there is still no way Khan could be sure how that would turn out.

As for the torpedoes, Khan didn't act as though he expected them to turn up. In fact he only became interested in them when he knew how many there were.

It still seems to me that if Khan had a plan other than to stay out of Marcus' way on Kronos, it stood a good chance of getting him killed. By the way, what if Marcus had had a more reliable patsy to send after Khan than Kirk?

Then Khan would be dead. Simple as that. It isn't that Khan had a fool proof plan to stay out of Marcus' way-I personally never felt that Khan went to Kronos to escape Marcus. I think he went there to bait Marcus and see if he was willing to start his war early. If Marcus didn't show up, the Khan would move on to another step. He clearly could handle Klingon patrols with a fair amount of ease, so getting a ship probably wouldn't be that difficult.

There is a difference in having a plan and never deviating from it, and having a plan with contingencies. Both Khan and Marcus struck me as men who had plans within plans within plans. Khan certainly did not think that every Starfleet officer would be able to attack a man without any warning, as Marcus' planned hinged upon. Khan, to me, seemed to expect that whatever plan Marcus had, the people he would send to do it would not be up to the job. Could that have ended him? Of course, as any plan could do. I'm not saying it should perfect.

Khan reminds me of being like a Mentat from Dune, trying to make plans based upon available information and data. He may not know what all we (the audience) knows, but that doesn't mean he isn't planning. There is a level of arrogance to his planning that should also be factored in to any speculation.

 

[UFO]

... By the way, what if Marcus had had a more reliable patsy to send after Khan than Kirk?

Then Khan would be dead. Simple as that. It isn't that Khan had a fool proof plan to stay out of Marcus' way-I personally never felt that Khan went to Kronos to escape Marcus. I think he went there to bait Marcus and see if he was willing to start his war early. If Marcus didn't show up, the Khan would move on to another step. He clearly could handle Klingon patrols with a fair amount of ease, so getting a ship probably wouldn't be that difficult.

And in general that's fair enough. The implementation however left a lot to be desired. Hanging around hoping your enemy stuffs up a perfect opportunity to kill you, is not a plan worthy of the name. I take your point about people having difficulty killing Khan in cold blood. But given what he is and is capable of, how dangerous he is and what he had already done (including killing Pike and others), there are bound to be people Marcus could have found to fire a few torpedoes at long distance. Indeed Kirk fully intended to do just that. Only Spock talked him out of it. Personally I applaud that, but Khan would be stupid to rely on it. And how bright was it? I mean, could Kirk and Co have taken Khan down on Kronos anyway? I doubt it.

There is a difference in having a plan and never deviating from it, and having a plan with contingencies. Both Khan and Marcus struck me as men who had plans within plans within plans. Khan certainly did not think that every Starfleet officer would be able to attack a man without any warning, as Marcus' planned hinged upon. Khan, to me, seemed to expect that whatever plan Marcus had, the people he would send to do it would not be up to the job. Could that have ended him? Of course, as any plan could do. I'm not saying it should perfect.

Any plan could go wrong, sure. That "plan" however was almost designed to go wrong. Which is where the plot is back to relying on luck to make sure the movie didn't end early. Here's another example: Marcus should have kept some of Khan's torpedoes on the Vengeance and trailed the Enterprise to Kronos (No one gets aboard the Vengeance either). The E brakes down as planned. Marcus fires his torpedoes at Khan irrespective of Kirk's actions and high tails it out of Dodge. The Klingons find the E, as planned.

Anyway you slice it, Khan should have have come up with something less potentially suicidal.

 

[fireproof78]

... By the way, what if Marcus had had a more reliable patsy to send after Khan than Kirk?

Then Khan would be dead. Simple as that. It isn't that Khan had a fool proof plan to stay out of Marcus' way-I personally never felt that Khan went to Kronos to escape Marcus. I think he went there to bait Marcus and see if he was willing to start his war early. If Marcus didn't show up, the Khan would move on to another step. He clearly could handle Klingon patrols with a fair amount of ease, so getting a ship probably wouldn't be that difficult.

And in general that's fair enough. The implementation however left a lot to be desired. Hanging around hoping your enemy stuffs up a perfect opportunity to kill you, is not a plan worthy of the name. I take your point about people having difficulty killing Khan in cold blood. But given what he is and is capable of, how dangerous he is and what he had already done (including killing Pike and others), there are bound to be people Marcus could have found to fire a few torpedoes at long distance. Indeed Kirk fully intended to do just that. Only Spock talked him out of it. Personally I applaud that, but Khan would be stupid to rely on it. And how bright was it? I mean, could Kirk and Co have taken Khan down on Kronos anyway? I doubt it.

There is a difference in having a plan and never deviating from it, and having a plan with contingencies. Both Khan and Marcus struck me as men who had plans within plans within plans. Khan certainly did not think that every Starfleet officer would be able to attack a man without any warning, as Marcus' planned hinged upon. Khan, to me, seemed to expect that whatever plan Marcus had, the people he would send to do it would not be up to the job. Could that have ended him? Of course, as any plan could do. I'm not saying it should perfect.

Any plan could go wrong, sure. That "plan" however was almost designed to go wrong. Which is where the plot is back to relying on luck to make sure the movie didn't end early. Here's another example: Marcus should have kept some of Khan's torpedoes on the Vengeance and trailed the Enterprise to Kronos (No one gets aboard the Vengeance either). The E brakes down as planned. Marcus fires his torpedoes at Khan irrespective of Kirk's actions and high tails it out of Dodge. The Klingons find the E, as planned.

Anyway you slice it, Khan should have have come up with something less potentially suicidal.

The only thing about it is that Khan seemed aware that Marcus was planning on stranding a starship on the edge of Klingon space. It isn't just that Khan was running around Kronos willy-nilly. He seemed to be aware of what actions Marcus would take to start his war, and based his escape on it accordingly.

It may seem like a plan designed to go wrong, but we also don't know how Marcus was planning to start his war, which Khan seemed intimately aware off and all the contingencies based upon it.

I was rewatching ID last night, especially the parts with Khan and there were several lines that I had forgotten about how Khan seemed unsurprised by the E's breaking down and how the events were unfolding. So, regardless of the luck involved, there is an awareness on Khan's part as to what Marcus is likely to do.

Yes, there is unbelievable arrogance on the part of Khan that this plan will work, but that is part of Khan's character. He is unbelievable arrogant and his plans can't go wrong...

 

[UFO]

...
Anyway you slice it, Khan should have have come up with something less potentially suicidal.

The only thing about it is that Khan seemed aware that Marcus was planning on stranding a starship on the edge of Klingon space. It isn't just that Khan was running around Kronos willy-nilly. He seemed to be aware of what actions Marcus would take to start his war, and based his escape on it accordingly.

It may seem like a plan designed to go wrong, but we also don't know how Marcus was planning to start his war, which Khan seemed intimately aware off and all the contingencies based upon it.

I was rewatching ID last night, especially the parts with Khan and there were several lines that I had forgotten about how Khan seemed unsurprised by the E's breaking down and how the events were unfolding. So, regardless of the luck involved, there is an awareness on Khan's part as to what Marcus is likely to do.

Yes, there is unbelievable arrogance on the part of Khan that this plan will work, but that is part of Khan's character. He is unbelievable arrogant and his plans can't go wrong...

Yes, it looked like Khan knew Marcus planned to strand or otherwise leave a starship to be found red handed in Klingon space as part of his war provocations. We almost have to believe Khan played into that, but why? It doesn't seem to me that it changes his chances of getting killed while doing so. Even if it brought forward Marcus' plans, Khan had to know he would be top of the hit list. Such knowledge doesn't seem to help him as far as I can see.

BTW, my point is that Khan isn't running around willy-nilly. That would have been a better plan! He was just waiting in the one spot to be picked off.

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who lets their arrogance get them into situations like that on a regular basis would achieve the heights Khan did. I was going to say: "End up where Khan did". But, well ...

I would be interested to know if anyone considers the illogic of Khan's behaviour here to constitute an actual plothole? First he stands on a planet daring his enemies to kill him. Then he decides he would be better off on the one ship that both the Klingons and Marcus would destroy if/when they find it! I guess he didn't expect the Vengeance to show up? Sure he told Kirk to go look for Marcus's secret base, but Scotty should never have been able to get inside it, let-alone aboard the Vengeance. Particularly since it should have been long gone by then, keeping an eye on the Enterprise, at the very least.

 

[fireproof78]

...
Anyway you slice it, Khan should have have come up with something less potentially suicidal.

The only thing about it is that Khan seemed aware that Marcus was planning on stranding a starship on the edge of Klingon space. It isn't just that Khan was running around Kronos willy-nilly. He seemed to be aware of what actions Marcus would take to start his war, and based his escape on it accordingly.

It may seem like a plan designed to go wrong, but we also don't know how Marcus was planning to start his war, which Khan seemed intimately aware off and all the contingencies based upon it.

I was rewatching ID last night, especially the parts with Khan and there were several lines that I had forgotten about how Khan seemed unsurprised by the E's breaking down and how the events were unfolding. So, regardless of the luck involved, there is an awareness on Khan's part as to what Marcus is likely to do.

Yes, there is unbelievable arrogance on the part of Khan that this plan will work, but that is part of Khan's character. He is unbelievable arrogant and his plans can't go wrong...

Yes, it looked like Khan knew Marcus planned to strand or otherwise leave a starship to be found red handed in Klingon space as part of his war provocations. We almost have to believe Khan played into that, but why? It doesn't seem to me that it changes his chances of getting killed while doing so. Even if it brought forward Marcus' plans, Khan had to know he would be top of the hit list. Such knowledge doesn't seem to help him as far as I can see.

BTW, my point is that Khan isn't running around willy-nilly. That would have been a better plan! He was just waiting in the one spot to be picked off.

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone who lets their arrogance get them into situations like that on a regular basis would achieve the heights Khan did. I was going to say: "End up where Khan did". But, well ...

I would be interested to know if anyone considers the illogic of Khan's behaviour here to constitute an actual plothole? First he stands on a planet daring his enemies to kill him. Then he decides he would be better off on the one ship that both the Klingons and Marcus would destroy if/when they find it! I guess he didn't expect the Vengeance to show up? Sure he told Kirk to go look for Marcus's secret base, but Scotty should never have been able to get inside it, let-alone aboard the Vengeance. Particularly since it should have been long gone by then, keeping an eye on the Enterprise, at the very least.

I guess I give Khan more credit than that. I don't see it as him standing on Kronos, twiddling his thumbs going, "Hm, will today be the day that torpedo hits the ground."

No, I see Khan timing things to a particular sequence. He knew that in response to the bombing in London, Starfleet would convene a convention of captains-attack there. After that, it will be X days until Marcus can send a ship and eliminate Khan. It can all be very procedural and perhaps the film could have showed it better, but I don't see it as Khan standing on Kronos and waiting.

In addition, we do not know if he had more than one transwarp device. Like I said, speculation can be done in a way that doesn't have to be a complete lack of planning, or poor planning.

 

[BillJ]

In addition, we do not know if he had more than one transwarp device. Like I said, speculation can be done in a way that doesn't have to be a complete lack of planning, or poor planning.

When he's leaving the Kelvin Memorial in his ship, he has two identically sized bags. Both about the same size as the transwarp beaming device.

 

[UFO]

I guess I give Khan more credit than that.

I guess you'd have to if you believe his publicity.

No, I see Khan timing things to a particular sequence. He knew that in response to the bombing in London, Starfleet would convene a convention of captains-attack there. After that, it will be X days until Marcus can send a ship and eliminate Khan. It can all be very procedural and perhaps the film could have showed it better ...

Showed it better? Actually film gives a largely different impression: That Khan "had to be" hiding on Kronos. That Kronos was the one place Starfleet couldn't go. And that the arranged meeting of SF top brass was intended to be Khan's revenge before absconding. That was portrayed as his plan. In fact the absconding bit looked like it was only a back up if his attack got into trouble. But then why go to Kronos at all? There must have been a less dangerous and more direct way of picking off Marcus. Just wait for him to leave for his secret base and walk in the front door like Scotty did perhaps.

... but I don't see it as Khan standing on Kronos and waiting.

And yet as far as we know that's pretty much what he did.

In addition, we do not know if he had more than one transwarp device. Like I said, speculation can be done in a way that doesn't have to be a complete lack of planning, or poor planning.

Yeah speculation's great isn't it? I will grant you (and BillJ ), both bags do look very similar and taking a second transwarp device would be prudent. But if you're suggesting he could beam out before the torpedoes arrived, I doubt there'd be time (i.e. not enough warning), especially given they have stealth capabilities. Of course beaming itself seems to take a number of seconds (Just ask Spock's mom. Sorry, that might be too soon. ).

 

[fireproof78]

I guess I give Khan more credit than that.

I guess you'd have to if you believe his publicity.

No, I see Khan timing things to a particular sequence. He knew that in response to the bombing in London, Starfleet would convene a convention of captains-attack there. After that, it will be X days until Marcus can send a ship and eliminate Khan. It can all be very procedural and perhaps the film could have showed it better ...

Showed it better? Actually film gives a largely different impression: That Khan "had to be" hiding on Kronos. That Kronos was the one place Starfleet couldn't go. And that the arranged meeting of SF top brass was intended to be Khan's revenge before absconding. That was portrayed as his plan. In fact the absconding bit looked like it was only a back up if his attack got into trouble. But then why go to Kronos at all? There must have been a less dangerous and more direct way of picking off Marcus. Just wait for him to leave for his secret base and walk in the front door like Scotty did perhaps.

... but I don't see it as Khan standing on Kronos and waiting.

And yet as far as we know that's pretty much what he did.

In addition, we do not know if he had more than one transwarp device. Like I said, speculation can be done in a way that doesn't have to be a complete lack of planning, or poor planning.

Yeah speculation's great isn't it? I will grant you (and BillJ ), both bags do look very similar and taking a second transwarp device would be prudent. But if you're suggesting he could beam out before the torpedoes arrived, I doubt there'd be time (i.e. not enough warning), especially given they have stealth capabilities. Of course beaming itself seems to take a number of seconds (Just ask Spock's mom. Sorry, that might be too soon. ).

I'll amend my statement about standing and waiting. He was standing and waiting for a purpose of timing. If Marcus followed through his plan of attack, then the torpedoes would be launched. Given that they were Khan's torpedoes, he likely had some sense as to either the time it would take, i.e. that Marcus would launch a ship, it would take this much time to get to the Neutral Zone, line up the shot and shoot. Once enroute, he could beam away, possibly to a spaceport, or back to Earth, or wherever, because Marcus would have his war, and Khan would no longer be the most important target.

Or, he jumps sides, joins up with the Klingons (as an Augment perhaps) and fights his way back to exact his vengeance upon the Federation.

Kronos is a place to go because there Khan can bait Marcus in to acting in a way that is fairly predictable, because Marcus was already planning his war with the Klingons. Kronos is just bait.

 

[UFO]

I'll amend my statement about standing and waiting. He was standing and waiting for a purpose of timing.

Sorry, I did, on rereading, catch your meaning but forgot to change my comment.

If Marcus followed through his plan of attack, then the torpedoes would be launched. Given that they were Khan's torpedoes, he likely had some sense as to either the time it would take, i.e. that Marcus would launch a ship, it would take this much time to get to the Neutral Zone, line up the shot and shoot. Once enroute, he could beam away, possibly to a spaceport, or back to Earth, or wherever, because Marcus would have his war, and Khan would no longer be the most important target.

I'm afraid we will have to disagree regarding the likelihood of Khan being able to time his beam-out based on that kind of dead-reckoning, if you'll pardon the pun. There are far too many variables. Eg. It was Kirk who ran into Marcus' meeting (which could have lasted for hours otherwise) to let him know where Khan was and convince him to do something about it. Its not clear when or if Marcus would have sent a ship otherwise. Case in point: Khan was still on Kronos when the Enterprise had been in torpedo range for some time preparing the trade ship and organizing the capture mission. There is no indication Khan was trying to time his exit and it would have been a hopeless task anyway.

Kronos is a place to go because there Khan can bait Marcus in to acting in a way that is fairly predictable, because Marcus was already planning his war with the Klingons. Kronos is just bait.

Not predictable enough (excluding the demands of the plot of course) I would suggest. Worse, it leaves too much of the initiative in others hands. Not something I think Khan would be happy with.

These kind of things don't ruin the movie you understand. But they are the sort of problems people normally point out in these forums, although I can't recall anyone doing so. Perhaps I missed it.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll amend my statement about standing and waiting. He was standing and waiting for a purpose of timing.

Sorry, I did, on rereading, catch your meaning but forgot to change my comment.

If Marcus followed through his plan of attack, then the torpedoes would be launched. Given that they were Khan's torpedoes, he likely had some sense as to either the time it would take, i.e. that Marcus would launch a ship, it would take this much time to get to the Neutral Zone, line up the shot and shoot. Once enroute, he could beam away, possibly to a spaceport, or back to Earth, or wherever, because Marcus would have his war, and Khan would no longer be the most important target.

I'm afraid we will have to disagree regarding the likelihood of Khan being able to time his beam-out based on that kind of dead-reckoning, if you'll pardon the pun. There are far too many variables. Eg. It was Kirk who ran into Marcus' meeting (which could have lasted for hours otherwise) to let him know where Khan was and convince him to do something about it. Its not clear when or if Marcus would have sent a ship otherwise. Case in point: Khan was still on Kronos when the Enterprise had been in torpedo range for some time preparing the trade ship and organizing the capture mission. There is no indication Khan was trying to time his exit and it would have been a hopeless task anyway.

Kronos is a place to go because there Khan can bait Marcus in to acting in a way that is fairly predictable, because Marcus was already planning his war with the Klingons. Kronos is just bait.

Not predictable enough (excluding the demands of the plot of course) I would suggest. Worse, it leaves too much of the initiative in others hands. Not something I think Khan would be happy with.

These kind of things don't ruin the movie you understand. But they are the sort of problems people normally point out in these forums, although I can't recall anyone doing so. Perhaps I missed it.

We can agree on the point that they are not problems that ruin the movie. As far as villain plots go, this one is downright competent compared to other movie villains, including some Trek film villains, IMO.

Also, I think that Marcus had previously established his super-secret plot to attack Kronos, otherwise Khan would not have the details that he did have about the Enterprise's circumstances.

No, I don't think Khan could anticipate every variable as far as Kirk's decisions, the Enterprise being sent, etc. I think there are variables that he could use to determine a probable course of action and behave accordingly. There is no reason to think that he would not be able to beam away, if the torpedoes were launched. Well, that's my thinking anyway

 

[Timo]

I'd start divining Khan's possible plan by first sorting out those elements he could have personally influenced; he could build a fairly solid plan out of that. I'd only then add elements Khan could guess would happen in a certain fashion, and then accept the rest as improvisation on chance elements.

What can Khan influence when he's being held on Marcus' leash? Why, basically anything and everything that Marcus gives his own stamp of approval on. And if Khan does work for Marcus as a technical-tactical adviser, then supposedly Marcus takes his advice. So, a few things Khan would suggest to Marcus that the Admiral would swallow hook, line and sinker as something serving his own interests:

1) "Build these long range torpedoes (that incidentally are perfect for slipping a cryochamber into, but I'm not telling you that part). They are very good weapons for real, but also perfect for this devious plan I have in min... YOU have just come up with, boss. Installing those torp tubes on the Enterprise was a great idea from you, boss, as the public will love it when that famous ship gets blown up by the Klingons. No, no, wait and listen, boss!"
2) "Make it look as if I went rogue. You can then send some young fool to come chase after me on the Enterprise. (Plus I like to operate outside your control, and I love to do all this destructive things against your assets that will make my rogue 'act' so convincing, but I'm not telling you this.)"
3) "As part of me going rogue, let me bomb that S31 lab that we no longer have any use for because we have produced 72 well-working missiles already and the blueprints are available for mass production anyway (and now I can be certain I get my special missiles deployed, but I'm not telling this to you, you bastard); then when Starfleet convenes as per regulations, let me go Godfather III on them so that all your rivals in the organization die (Yes, I personally want them all horribly dead, but I'm not telling y... Oh, what the hell, this part I can tell you!), and the young fool now has a really good reason to come after me."
4) "Send me to the Klingon homeworld with the super-transporter that I purportedly steal from the lab. The young fool will then start a war coming after me. (Plus I'm finally completely outside your reach, but I'm not spelling this out for you.)"
5) "And then please rescue me. (Of course I know you will try to kill me instead, but at this point, I have already won, sucker!)"

By conning Marcus into thinking the two are still allies and the Admiral is the one on top of the game and with the evil ulterior plans, Khan is much better off than by doing something Marcus wouldn't approve of. All that Khan needs after that is a few backup plans, such as an extra transporter stashed away, a few backdoor commands to Marcus' superweapons, perhaps a few allies obtained through blackmailing or sweet-talking... He already has his road paved all the way to the relative safety of the Klingon homeworld, so even if everything goes horribly wrong from that point on, he's all set for starting anew and launching some other campaign (probably one of pure revenge at first, because if this one fails, it means his family is dead for good).

Some steps above are optional. Say, the slaughter of the Starfleet skippers could be Khan's own doing, added to make Marcus angry but at the same time complacent as he now thinks Khan has had his revenge. It could also be pure utilitarianism, as a sudden shortage of expert skippers would improve Khan's odds at dealing with whoever idiot gets sent to kill him. Likewise, there could be more steps that Khan might have taken, all cleared with Marcus so that the full weight of the Admiral's own organization(s) would ensure the proceeding of the plan to Khan's liking.

Timo Saloniemi