Thomas Harewood - Would You Kill 42 People?
- Thread starter Commishsleer
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Of course its murder.
Harewood had a choice. He had something to gain out of it.
What if the cure had been for himself or his wife or his neighbour's child ? Would it have been semi-heroic then?
Murder with special circumstances of course. He was under duress. I can't imagine day-after-day seeing your only child dying. Horrific. I hope I never have to see it. I can also imagine being the child of one of those people he killed. Motherless or fatherless (or both) for the rest of my life.
They aren't my family.
^ They're somebody else's.
And before you reply "But they're not MINE" - well, you don't get to make that distinction. All life is sacred. Murder is murder, regardless of who it is.
Now of course there may be mitigating circumstances (extreme emotional disturbance, for example, which probably would apply to Harewood) which may affect your sentencing for the crime, but it doesn't change the fact that it IS a crime.
In this case, it would depend on whether or not Harewood even tried to notify the authorities and/or warned his Section 31 coworkers to evacuate before planting the bomb. I think he could have found a way. Khan's manipulative and treacherous, but he's not infallible. Even Augments like him can be tricked.
And before you reply "But they're not MINE" - well, you don't get to make that distinction. All life is sacred. Murder is murder, regardless of who it is.
Now of course there may be mitigating circumstances (extreme emotional disturbance, for example, which probably would apply to Harewood) which may affect your sentencing for the crime, but it doesn't change the fact that it IS a crime.
In this case, it would depend on whether or not Harewood even tried to notify the authorities and/or warned his Section 31 coworkers to evacuate before planting the bomb. I think he could have found a way. Khan's manipulative and treacherous, but he's not infallible. Even Augments like him can be tricked.
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The point is that Harewood didn't have the benefit of thinking rationally. He was distraught, to the point of desperation, and not at all rational.
I would hope that we could all agree that murder is wrong, but so often, in tragic situations, people become myopic, tunnel vision that they don't see other possibilities. I don't claim that what Harewood did was not murder, but I also understand why he did it. Still wrong, yes, I agree.
Seeing as how Harrison was the person who took the blame, I don't know it it would be known about Harewood's involvement.
I would hope that we could all agree that murder is wrong, but so often, in tragic situations, people become myopic, tunnel vision that they don't see other possibilities. I don't claim that what Harewood did was not murder, but I also understand why he did it. Still wrong, yes, I agree.
Seeing as how Harrison was the person who took the blame, I don't know it it would be known about Harewood's involvement.
It seems likely that Starfleet and the Federation, no doubt wanting to distance themselves from Section 31's involvement and 'purge' themselves of all S31 influences, would shift all blame onto Khan and Admiral Marcus, and thus (posthumously) clear Harewood's record. Perhaps this is even how it should be. Harewood would never have done what he'd done without their involvement, after all.
(Khan, OTOH, doesn't get such an easy out. I don't care what Section 31 did to him. Khan's more of a murderer than Harewood ever was. Even if Khan had legitimate gripes against Section 31 - and who knows, he may have - he doesn't get to claim the emotional distress that Harewood could. Khan knows full well the difference between right and wrong...he just doesn't care. )
Though the film does kind of blatantly present the idea that their situations are similar. Of course, the audience is free to not buy Khan's justification for his actions.
George Steinbrenner said:
And Harewood doesn't?
That's not how justice systems work. None of them acknowledges pseudo-religious nonsense such as "all life is sacred" - rather, a group of people all thinking "Those worthless kids of everybody else deserve to die, but mine must be protected" gradually come to the conclusion that outlawing the harming of all kids would be a prudent approach. After which they demonstrate that life is not sacred in the slightest to them by deciding that killing of children is punishable by death.
The right to daddy and mommy isn't a particularly important one anyway: no system chooses to make it mandatory, nor the providing of a spare daddy or mommy in case of loss. And the argument that a killing deprived somebody of a daddy or a grandmum or a niece isn't a legally significant one: relatives are just victims among others.
That's another thing to note about justice systems: they graduate crime, declaring some less wrong than others. Not all killing is murder, and although there will always be crowds with torches and pitchforks chanting "Murderer! Murderer!", the justice systems exist as much to protect the society from such crowds as it does to protect the society from the killers.
Doesn't sound like worth the risk. It would be the pinnacle of idiocy to go ahead with the bombing, including self-immolation, while violating the terms of the agreement and getting the daughter killed anyway.
Timo Saloniemi
@Harth: Khan knows the difference and doesn't *care*. Harewood might also know it, but he believes it justified to do wrong in order to save his daughter's life.
Harewood is clearly a broken man by the thought of what he is about to do. He cares about the people he is about to kill. Khan would not. (When Khan pilots the Vengeance straight through San Francisco, I bet he was laughing the whole time as he mowed people down. He would not, and did not, care about all the people he killed down there.)
Harewood is clearly a broken man by the thought of what he is about to do. He cares about the people he is about to kill. Khan would not. (When Khan pilots the Vengeance straight through San Francisco, I bet he was laughing the whole time as he mowed people down. He would not, and did not, care about all the people he killed down there.)
Everybody at S31 would have factually contributed to the threat on Khan's family, so they certainly deserved to die. Murdering of murderers preemptively is both good and evil (like everything we ever do), but probably more the former... I bet most of Earth would have cheered Khan had they known the background.
For all we know, everybody in San Francisco was at Marcus' beck and call, too (How does Starfleet train all those millions of officers and men if everybody goes through the single Academy at that city? The campus must be immense!)... Certainly Earth seemed to listen to Marcus and not to Kirk, thus not to Khan, either. Khan was being blackmailed by an autocratically led mankind; taking it out on mankind would seem reasonable.
Timo Saloniemi
For all we know, everybody in San Francisco was at Marcus' beck and call, too (How does Starfleet train all those millions of officers and men if everybody goes through the single Academy at that city? The campus must be immense!)... Certainly Earth seemed to listen to Marcus and not to Kirk, thus not to Khan, either. Khan was being blackmailed by an autocratically led mankind; taking it out on mankind would seem reasonable.
Timo Saloniemi
I think one of the failings of the movie is that they didn't make Khan out to be a sympathetic character. I doubt the citizens of San Francisco would be sympathetic with Khan after he deliberately plowed the ship into the city. From what is shown I think everyone would agree that Khan was so dangerous that Marcus was right to keep him from amassing an army of his followers.
Perhaps if whatever was in the comics was shown in the movie or if Section 31 was shown to be a bunch of horrible murderers then people might be a bit more sympathetic. But all we saw of Section 31 was Harewood and we felt sorry for him.
Everyone in San Francisco was at Marcus' call? So we should be happy that Khan damaged the city? Kirk and his crew were at at Marcus call, so was Pike. I'm not keen on what Khan did to them.
I'm actually glad they still emphasized how evil Khan was. The fact is, there are people (both real and fictional) who simply ARE evil. To understand why Khan might have done what he did, is not the same as sympathizing with it.
And nothing justifies Khan mowing down all those innocent San Franciscans. NOTHING.
And nothing justifies Khan mowing down all those innocent San Franciscans. NOTHING.
How about the people in the Kelvin Memorial Archive above it? And what about the janitors? Secretaries? Doorman?
If a terrorist were to kill a janitor who works at the CIA, did he or she deserve to die?
Or children in a day-Care Centre in the building.
Oh, there will always be some collateral damage. But those S31 folks had the potential and the will to kill trillions. So surely anybody complaining about his incidentally dead child should be added to the death toll, too?
Umm, did he? He wanted SF HQ leveled, and apparently failed. This would seem to indicate he didn't want the city area leveled, because this is what stopped him from destroying SF HQ!
There was a big emphasis on how he wasn't particularly evil in "Space Seed" - otherwise, Kirk would have looked bad when letting him go.
What was evil about Sherlock Khan? He killed warmongers galore, in fair military action (plus some more or less innocent Londoners on the side). He betrayed traitors. He plotted against conspirators. And he ended up stopping Admiral Marcus, even personally putting the final touch on that project.
Oh, and he dared defy the heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
Umm, did he? He wanted SF HQ leveled, and apparently failed. This would seem to indicate he didn't want the city area leveled, because this is what stopped him from destroying SF HQ!
There was a big emphasis on how he wasn't particularly evil in "Space Seed" - otherwise, Kirk would have looked bad when letting him go.
What was evil about Sherlock Khan? He killed warmongers galore, in fair military action (plus some more or less innocent Londoners on the side). He betrayed traitors. He plotted against conspirators. And he ended up stopping Admiral Marcus, even personally putting the final touch on that project.
Oh, and he dared defy the heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
What are you basing that on? As far as I can remember, Marcus was the only real ass-hat we know of for sure at Section 31. If there were any others in on his "big plan", why did he have to use private security to crew the Vengeance?
I haven't watched DS9 that much but in the episodes I watched S31 guys seemed to be obnoxious. But I got the impression that they were Spooks doing the dirty jobs so that we all could live in freedom etc. Is this wrong, are they a bunch of warmongers, terrorists, arevwe btter off without them?
Generally speaking, they would be building the arsenal of freedom if the Klingons attacked the Federation, and hailed as heroes if brought to the public. It's only by their association with Marcus' plan that they would be deemed evildoers instead - and it does seem that when Khan was doing dirty and treacherous work for Marcus with the goal to get the war started, he was doing so as a S31 agent. So, damnation by association.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
He killed warmongers because he would get something out of it, namely the Vengeance and his crew back. He would then continue on to conquer Earth with the new weapons he had helped developed in a preemptive effort to reestablish his superiority.
While it is not explicitly stated what Khan's plans are, I was left with the impression that Marcus had tried to keep a rein on Khan's savage nature, while exploiting his intellect. But, Khan still feels superior, and a desire to rule. He just had more tools at his disposal to accomplish it. He may have stopped S31 but it was not to better the Federation. It was to give him access to weapons.
At least, that was my reading of the situation.
I am a bit doubtful of Khan actually planning that much ahead. The plotting required for him to recover his family, er, crew, was already byzantine and stretching credibility even when coming from a supposed supermind. The events leading up to him acquiring the Vengeance cannot IMHO have been part of any plausible plan - the acquisition just shows how good Khan is at improvising, and mirrors his antics in "Space Seed".
In "Space Seed", we never learn what Khan's actual plans or ambitions would have been, because Kirk defeats him at Step One, the regaining of his operational freedom. And in TWoK, Khan seems to have abandoned all planning and concentrates on shortsighted personal revenge; Genesis drops on his lap, and he proceeds to do nothing with it. So we can't really tell if Khan expected to again rule Earth one day; or froze himself in order to enjoy a quiet retirement away from his enemies; or had high hopes of founding a space empire of his own.
In ST:ID, it very much seems as if Khan has his hands full recovering the 72 sleepers, and isn't planning on anything more until that is accomplished. Like Genesis, the Vengeance drops on his lap quite unpredictably, and he never has any time to achieve anything with her, but even if he did, his priority might be to withdraw and regroup; and even then, he would be flying just one supership against a mad Admiral (or his madder successors) who no doubt was building an armada of those. And probably had finished building several, or else wouldn't have proceeded with the plan to get the war started. But I digress.
"Harrison" supposedly was a Section 31 operative with broad powers and resources for several years. If Khan wanted to hoard up superweapons and take over Earth, this would have been his best opportunity to do so. But it seems that he honestly cared more about his extended family (and not just as a means of raising a superior mini-army, because he already had an army of his own through Marcus' sponsorship).
Timo Saloniemi
In "Space Seed", we never learn what Khan's actual plans or ambitions would have been, because Kirk defeats him at Step One, the regaining of his operational freedom. And in TWoK, Khan seems to have abandoned all planning and concentrates on shortsighted personal revenge; Genesis drops on his lap, and he proceeds to do nothing with it. So we can't really tell if Khan expected to again rule Earth one day; or froze himself in order to enjoy a quiet retirement away from his enemies; or had high hopes of founding a space empire of his own.
In ST:ID, it very much seems as if Khan has his hands full recovering the 72 sleepers, and isn't planning on anything more until that is accomplished. Like Genesis, the Vengeance drops on his lap quite unpredictably, and he never has any time to achieve anything with her, but even if he did, his priority might be to withdraw and regroup; and even then, he would be flying just one supership against a mad Admiral (or his madder successors) who no doubt was building an armada of those. And probably had finished building several, or else wouldn't have proceeded with the plan to get the war started. But I digress.
"Harrison" supposedly was a Section 31 operative with broad powers and resources for several years. If Khan wanted to hoard up superweapons and take over Earth, this would have been his best opportunity to do so. But it seems that he honestly cared more about his extended family (and not just as a means of raising a superior mini-army, because he already had an army of his own through Marcus' sponsorship).
Timo Saloniemi
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