A Couple of TUC Questions

[Bry_Sinclair]

In "The Undiscovered Country", Valeris volunteered to serve as the ships helmsman (although neither of her uniform colours were what they should've been) but later, in conversation with Spock, he says about how he essentially recommended her as his replacement. Since her jacket colour includes the sciences that would fit. Since most officers seemed trained to pilot ships, she could've met the criteria to act as helmsman for the short-duration mission they were on.

My first question is this, how do you view Valeris, as a helmsman who got dresses in the dark, pinching two uniforms from others, or is she a scientist who was also a descent enough pilot for the mission?

Secondly, the crew keeps talking about their retirement in 3 months (which makes no sense for Uhura and Chekov) but the impression is that the E-A will carry on. They seem genuinely surprised that the decommission order came through. Was that because of battle damage (combined with ship age, if she was the Yorktown renamed) or was she always meant to be decommissioned and no one had told the crew?

 

[2takesfrakes]

As I understand it, the mixed colours in Valeris' uniform started out as a mistake - Kim Catrall was given wrong coloured costumes. Meyer was taken by the mix-matched look and used it. In-universe, I just took it to represent a kind of Geordi LaForge situation, where one day he's just the bus driver and the next he's given charge of Engineering. The mixed colours must represent a "transitional" look, in other words. As to Kirk & Co. being surprised and concerned about the decomissioning of a ship that's brand new - though banged up - the implication that all starships get junked after seeing "action" in STARFLEET seems absurd to me. And why the retiring crew would care about the fate of this particular ship, when they barely "knew" her, I haven't a clue. It just doesn't make sense outside of Meyer trying to squeeze every last emotional drama out of his last STAR TREK movie. But ooh! we get to see Spock, the unemotional, logical Vulcan say, "Go to hell!" I'm all acquiver ...

 

[Timo]

In "The Undiscovered Country", Valeris volunteered to serve as the ships helmsman (although neither of her uniform colours were what they should've been) but later, in conversation with Spock, he says about how he essentially recommended her as his replacement

Then again, at that point, Spock need not have been actively involved in anything relating to the Enterprise. He had dedicated the past six months to diplomacy, and might have been just as impromptu a part of the E-A crew as everybody else. Heck, for all we know, had already retired in advance of the other older officers (but still wearing his uniform like the retired Kirk in ST:GEN, because that's what old soldiers do).

Perhaps Valeris would be Spock's successor as the leading Vulcan science and diplomacy dude in Starfleet or even the Federation? A stint aboard the famed Enterprise might to Valeris appear a logical step in that progression, even if Spock didn't necessarily expect Valeris to join the crew.

My first question is this, how do you view Valeris, as a helmsman who got dresses in the dark, pinching two uniforms from others, or is she a scientist who was also a descent enough pilot for the mission?

It seems to me that Valeris is wearing the grey that is the New Red - a generic color for "ship's services", fit for Uhura and Chekov alike. This need not limit our options at all, then. And Chekov was doing just fine as "Spock's apprentice" wearing the old red.

She is also wearing red, which has become associated with Academy things. Might mean she's an instructor there, or a postgrad undergoing advanced training - differing from Saavik in ST2 only in terms of nuances.

Secondly, the crew keeps talking about their retirement in 3 months (which makes no sense for Uhura and Chekov) but the impression is that the E-A will carry on. They seem genuinely surprised that the decommission order came through. Was that because of battle damage (combined with ship age, if she was the Yorktown renamed) or was she always meant to be decommissioned and no one had told the crew?

Even after receiving that message, Kirk is convinced the ship will carry on, as evidenced by his log. So the decommissioning might rather refer to Starfleet stripping commissions off the top officers a few months early: this would make Kirk's log consistent (if ultimately over-optimistic) and would realistically portray Starfleet's likely reactions to the whole mess.

I'm not sure that Chekov would be involved in the retirement process in any way. Uhura does say "We", but it sounds as if she hasn't listened through the whole message at that point yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think everyone involved in the film was confused about the retirement status of the main characters. IIRC, the script originally had our heroes come out of retirement for one last adventure, which is still reflected in McCoy's otherwise inexplicable line, "If we're all here, where's Sulu?"

 

[Timo]

Being semi-retired would suffice to explain why McCoy wouldn't be completely up to specs. But how could anything explain he's three full years out of date when it comes to Sulu's life?

Of course, it may be Sulu wasn't out there on the Excelsior for the full three years, and some other skipper commanded the ship for the first two and a half, or alternated with Sulu, or whatever. Or then it was McCoy who was doing something exotic far away from the civilization...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Ships can be decommissioned for a short time while it awaits a new crew, or gets a refit, and then recommissioned once it gets both again. A bunch of battleships in the 1910s were decommissioned and recommissioned a couple of times to serve a tour of duty or two, then sit in port for a year or two before being recommissioned again for a training cruise or a special assignement to take some diplomat across the Atlantic Ocean.

With USS Enterprise, it might be that she is decommissioned so that they can both repair her, and to strip her of her name ane numbers, to give those to the soon to be completed Excelsior-class USS Enterprise NCC-1701-B. The NCC-1701-A may have been renamed and recommissioned following her repairs. She would not have gotten the name "Yorktown" back, since there was currently a Yorktown in service, Tuvok's parents were serving there. She could have returned to being USS Ti-Ho, if that was her name as a new ship, and returned her old numbers.

As for McCoy and Sulu, maybe he expected Excelsior to be back by now, but because of Praxis she stayed out on assignment, which McCoy wouldn't have known about.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps by replacement, Spock meant "token alien" rather than helm or science officer.

 

[Timo]

With USS Enterprise, it might be that she is decommissioned so that they can both repair her, and to strip her of her name ane numbers, to give those to the soon to be completed Excelsior-class USS Enterprise NCC-1701-B.

Possibly so. But why would this elicit the "Go to hell!" response from Spock? It sounds quite benign.

(The "decommissioning for repairs" thing ceased to be in fashion about a hundred years ago, but I do like to think it came back to fashion again later on. Recommissioning after refit would nicely explain some of the odd "commissioning dates" found in TNG dedication plaques!)

As for McCoy and Sulu, maybe he expected Excelsior to be back by now, but because of Praxis she stayed out on assignment, which McCoy wouldn't have known about.

Hey, good point! It has been two months since the mission of the Excelsior was supposed to have ended, and travel to Klingon space and back clearly doesn't take that long in this movie. So Sulu's "assignment" would seem to be hush-hush - either he's part of Starfleet's preparations for the upcoming war, or then he's being ordered to stay in deep space so that he can't speak about what he witnessed.

Doesn't explain why Kirk felt the need to point out he's "CAPTAIN Sulu" now, though. McCoy certainly ought to know that much!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RoJoHen]

Let's be real. McCoy should have been retired for the whole past decade, but Starfleet brought him out of it in TMP. Maybe he's just not paying that much attention to what everybody is up to on a day-to-day basis. McCoy may know that Sulu is a captain, but that doesn't mean he's aware of his current job assignment.

 

[Ithekro]

Uhura's wording seems to suggest the crew rather than the ship. At the start of the film they all seemed rather fine with the idea of retirement in three months. At the end, they seem ready for a new adventure (can we assume it will be three months since the briefing by the time they can make it back to Earth?). With the renewed desire for adventure, the crew would be a little put off by being not only reminded they aren't young anymore, but told flat out to go home and stop adventuring.

USS Enterprise was likely just decommissioned and placed in reserve, a museum, scrapped, used as a target, or sold to some planetary government. But the other idea that it was simply renamed after a brief decommissioning does have some appeal and not without precedent in real world history. At least two classes of armored cruisers had their names changed in favor of new battleships in the 1910s, and continued to serve afterwards with their new names into the 1920s.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Doesn't explain why Kirk felt the need to point out he's "CAPTAIN Sulu" now, though. McCoy certainly ought to know that much!

Timo Saloniemi

To hammer the point home with the audience, in case (for some reason) it was not clear on the Excelsior. There's no other reason why Kirk would point that out, since they (the TOS crew) are a tight group.

 

[Gassy Man]

A lot of ideas from TUC are borrowed for Cold War concepts. The Enterprise seemed to be treated in the film as a symbol of a more war-like period for Starfleet, whereas ships like the Excelsior are meant to represent the future scientific research. A better term than decommissioned might have been "mothballed," as that was eluded to earlier in the film, if I remember correctly, and would suggest the ship would be taken out of the line until it was needed again, though we were probably supposed to believe that the damage the ship sustained made that unfeasible . . . . .

 

[Lance]

Uhura's wording seems to suggest the crew rather than the ship. At the start of the film they all seemed rather fine with the idea of retirement in three months. At the end, they seem ready for a new adventure (can we assume it will be three months since the briefing by the time they can make it back to Earth?). With the renewed desire for adventure, the crew would be a little put off by being not only reminded they aren't young anymore, but told flat out to go home and stop adventuring.

USS Enterprise was likely just decommissioned and placed in reserve, a museum, scrapped, used as a target, or sold to some planetary government. But the other idea that it was simply renamed after a brief decommissioning does have some appeal and not without precedent in real world history. At least two classes of armored cruisers had their names changed in favor of new battleships in the 1910s, and continued to serve afterwards with their new names into the 1920s.

I like this. Given that the time-frame between STVI and the opening moments of Generations is said to be very slim, chances are good that 1701-B was already well under construction during the events of TUC. At the start of the movie they were probably all very well aware that this new Enterprise was going to leave without them (Spock's line about Valeris being a successor to him might even indicate that she was intended to be the science officer of the 1701-B). Then Praxis explodes, and Spock does his "Avengers, assemble!" shtick with all the old 1701 command crew. TUC takes place over a matter of months, so there was certainly more than enough time for the old crew to have become accustomed once again to something resembling front-line service together after years of being semi-retired, hence their disappointment at being reminded at the end of the movie that they are, in fact, never going to serve together again.

If Valeris' appointment was to 1701-B rather than 1701-A, it could explain her sciences uniform. She's very much a last minute substitution to the 1701-A bridge, presumably based on both some past degree of piloting experience, as well as her being Spock's protégée (a pure case of nepotism ).

 

[Timo]

There's no other reason why Kirk would point that out, since they (the TOS crew) are a tight group.

Then again, the very purpose of the scene is to show that, as of 2293, they are not, even if they used to be. It's just so damned difficult to think of a mechanism whereby McCoy would be out of the loop in that exact fashion.

It has been five to eight years since we last saw our heroes, depending on how you want to count. In that time, some could have kept in touch, others resigned from Starfleet altogether. McCoy apparently did neither, but what did he do? In ST:TMP, McCoy wanted nothing to do with the Enterprise; in ST2 already, he was itching to go with her again. In ST5, he did go, quite voluntarily. Where's the wind blowing from now?

Alas, "CAPTAIN Sulu" makes no sense no matter what... McCoy's question does not indicate he would be unaware of Sulu's rank, even if he had a valid reason for such ignorance, so why would Kirk provide that rank?

All I can think of is that Kirk is proud or bitter about Sulu making Captain, and wants to remind everybody at every turn. He could be making sure his friend is speaking about Hikaru Sulu rather than some other Sulu who is not Captain but is known to all the heroes - but the very next movie suggests Kirk isn't interacting with the Sulu family enough for such confusion to be plausible.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[wulfio]

I always saw the role of helmsmen in the 23rd and 24th century as pretty irrelevant, and more just a job given to junior officers to give them bridge experience.

Having a dedicated pilot seemed to be redundant when you have a ship that can engage in any number of evasive maneuvers, with a single press of a button.

 

[urbandefault]

There's no other reason why Kirk would point that out, since they (the TOS crew) are a tight group.

Then again, the very purpose of the scene is to show that, as of 2293, they are not, even if they used to be. It's just so damned difficult to think of a mechanism whereby McCoy would be out of the loop in that exact fashion.

It has been five to eight years since we last saw our heroes, depending on how you want to count. In that time, some could have kept in touch, others resigned from Starfleet altogether. McCoy apparently did neither, but what did he do? In ST:TMP, McCoy wanted nothing to do with the Enterprise; in ST2 already, he was itching to go with her again. In ST5, he did go, quite voluntarily. Where's the wind blowing from now?

Alas, "CAPTAIN Sulu" makes no sense no matter what... McCoy's question does not indicate he would be unaware of Sulu's rank, even if he had a valid reason for such ignorance, so why would Kirk provide that rank?

All I can think of is that Kirk is proud or bitter about Sulu making Captain, and wants to remind everybody at every turn. He could be making sure his friend is speaking about Hikaru Sulu rather than some other Sulu who is not Captain but is known to all the heroes - but the very next movie suggests Kirk isn't interacting with the Sulu family enough for such confusion to be plausible.

Timo Saloniemi

McCoy's question could have been just an honest assumption that since the rest of them had been summoned, Sulu would be there too.

Kirk's comment was a reminder to Bones that even though the crewmembers present were scheduled to stand down in three months, Captain Sulu now had his own ship, and his career was nowhere near over. That, and Sulu now outranked McCoy and should be shown the same respect as any other captain.

Maybe. YMMV.

 

[Cyke101]

IIRC, the script originally had our heroes come out of retirement for one last adventure, which is still reflected in McCoy's otherwise inexplicable line, "If we're all here, where's Sulu?"

It would also go well with Kirk's reaction of being "drafted", so to speak, for the mission by Spock. Plus, what a great angle, to have heroes step up one last time, especially after they thought they were done, because the galaxy needed them once more!

On a personal note, this is the first I've heard about this script anecdote, and I'm fairly disappointed in myself for not knowing it sooner.

 

[wulfio]

I don't know if I would call it inexplicable. If they were all on different assignments, and then brought together as a group, where the only professional connection between them was their service on the enterprise, then the line is perfectly applicable.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't know if I would call it inexplicable. If they were all on different assignments, and then brought together as a group, where the only professional connection between them was their service on the enterprise, then the line is perfectly applicable.

As long as Sulu remains captain of the Excelsior, I'm largely fine with whatever interpretation people have.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I always saw the role of helmsmen in the 23rd and 24th century as pretty irrelevant, and more just a job given to junior officers to give them bridge experience.

Having a dedicated pilot seemed to be redundant when you have a ship that can engage in any number of evasive maneuvers, with a single press of a button.

That's TNG thinking. Once Bermaga got ahold of the show they had no understanding of what a crew does, and what it takes to run a massive ship.