Gotham - Season 1

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Agent Richard07, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But you said he should "learn" from Bullock, a character whose defining character trait at this point is casual brutality and contempt for anything decent. That sure sounded like you were saying you wanted Gordon to become a worse person -- not just someone struggling to live up to his ideals, but someone who "learned" to abandon his ideals.

    There's certainly value in the story of a character who believes in his principles struggling to remain true to them in the face of a world that encourages abandoning them. But that doesn't mean a character needs to "learn" from a far more corrupt character. I find the very suggestion that this totally irredeemable version of Bullock is somehow more in the right than Gordon to be profoundly offensive. What the hell, exactly, are you proposing that Gordon should "learn" from this piece of scum? How to beat people up? How to torture human beings? How to stop caring altogether about the law or good police work? Bullock is the one who needs to learn from Gordon. Bad people should learn from good people.

    I definitely see Gordon struggling. He's struggling with the seeming impossibility of accomplishing his goals in the face of such systematic corruption, with the difficulty of even surviving as a Gotham cop, with the seeming futility of keeping his promise to Bruce. He's definitely being challenged. If you want compromise, just putting up with Bullock's brutality is more of a moral compromise than I'm personally comfortable with, because there is never the slightest excuse for torture. But it's a compromise he's had to make just to stay alive, and it's killing him. I don't know how you can say he's not conflicted. A character can have clearly formed ideals and still have to struggle. He shouldn't have to start out as some amoral scumbag like Bullock.
     
  2. Servo

    Servo Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This. Exactly this. :techman:
     
  3. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Well there would be relief (shuts down the claims by Montoya and her partner that Gordon put on in Penguin's head) and at the same time concern because now the mobsters know that Jim didn't shoot Oswald as he was supposed to.

    Won't help things between Barbara and Rene though with the former probably thinking it's more payback/trying to spit them up.
     
  4. Servo

    Servo Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think think he's going to reappear to anyone else just yet. Cobblepot is smart enough to know that if Mooney gets wind of him being alive, it would put him in just as much danger as it would Gordon. Especially after the reaction of that goon he knifed near the sandwich vendor.

    I'm thinking he's going to try and gain leverage over Gordon somehow (possibly by threatening to reveal he's alive), or maybe pretend to be a friend to Gordon so he can try and manipulate him to further his own agenda.
     
  5. LaxScrutiny

    LaxScrutiny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm glad you're sorry. It doesn't mean that. It means they are two different people, addressing a situation in different ways, just the way Gordon and Bullock are doing right now in front of your eyes. Show, not tell.
     
  6. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    If someone dies because Jim trusts Oswald or makes an "unholy" or "lesser of two evils" type alliance with him, there's your inner conflict for Jim.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sure someone here also said that the producers said that Gotham is taking place in 2014.
     
  8. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    I've heard the same thing as Christopher that the show isn't meant to take place in any specific year just a "general now" or "before now" we see they have cell-phones and other modern technologies, but we've also seen older TV sets and the phones they've used have been lame flip-phones. (;)) So I doubt it's meant to take place in 2014.
     
  9. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    I've never heard anything to suggest that it's the past, just that it's a timeless Gotham. They deliberately used 70s cars but it's for their nondescript look reminiscent of gritty police shows rather than to suggest that it's at any point in time. I'm sure it's the same with every other prop. Loved seeing those old TVs by the way.
     
  10. Lapis Exilis

    Lapis Exilis Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Of course he could - and if I saw any evidence of that being the direction they were headed, I'd be much more interested. But I don't see that evidence. I'm willing to be convinced though, if anyone wants to demonstrate how the writers are setting that up.

    And beating people up and torturing human beings is different from what Batman does... how, exactly?

    Which would be my point.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Most of 2014 is already the past.
     
  12. Servo

    Servo Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We're three episodes into the first season of a new show. Give it a chance.
     
  13. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A bit more on this:

    http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/oct/06/designing-gotham-production-designer-doug-kraner
     
  14. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Saw Jada Pinkett on The Tonight Show and it's amazing how different she looks when made up as Fish Mooney. Though now I'm not sure if either or neither is her real hair.
     
  15. eyeresist

    eyeresist Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The first two eps of Gotham were broadcast here last night. Although the trailer showed potential, my hopes were not high, as Arrow did not impress me at all, and there are so many possible ways to screw up this show (or any show). Also, the SFX review was rather snide.

    But actually I enjoyed what I saw a lot. The writing seemed consistent, without those peaks and valleys most shows suffer from in early episodes, and I thought the cast was great. I also liked the gritty 70s feel, as for me that was Batman at his peak.

    I have two worries:
    1. Gordon's girlfriend. First off, she's called Barbara, which lays out some big plot twists pretty clearly - she'll die giving birth (or shortly after), and Jim will name his new daughter after her. I don't like her apartment; something more grounded would fit the show better. Finally, the actress is wrong - I find her neither likable nor interesting.
    2. With such a big cast, there is a danger of the show devolving into a soap opera where we are expected to care about half a dozen unrelated plotlines.

    I'm not yet sure how they're going to handle Bruce. I think I'd prefer it if he never became a central character, but instead we only observed his growth by inference. A rather dark, increasingly obsessed kid who learns to put up a bland front.
     
  16. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    I think Jim Gordon's wife was Barbara in The Dark Knight as well. I have no idea about the comics. But they seemed to name their kids after their parents.
     
  17. Corran Horn

    Corran Horn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The confusion has been a constant, really - is Batgirl Barbara his niece, daughter, etc...and it doesn't help that his (first?) wife is/was named Barbara too.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Barbara Kean was introduced in 1981's "To Kill a Legend" by Alan Brennert and Dick Giordano. She was Gordon's fiancee in an alternate world where events were 20 years behind and the Wayne murders hadn't happened yet. Frank Miller introduced her as Gordon's main-universe wife in Batman: Year One in 1987. He intended her to be Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon's mother, but he reworked the chronology so that her child wasn't born yet when Batman began his career, so it was later decided that Babs/Batgirl was Jim's niece whom he adopted as a daughter (although later retconned that she was actually his biological daughter from an affair when he was much younger). Barbara Kean Gordon would later divorce Jim due to his infidelity, taking their son James Jr. with her, and Gordon would marry his colleague Sarah Essen (whom Gotham has reinterpreted as Gordon and Bullock's captain).

    So I don't think there's any reason to expect Barbara to die in childbirth.
     
  19. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Besides, mothers who pass their names onto their daughters are kind of a thing now.
     
  20. Mach5

    Mach5 Admiral Admiral

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    GOTHAM Is The Worst Thing To Happen To Batman Since Joel Schumacher

    "There’s a fine line between campy goodness and cartoonish badness, and Gotham clearly has no idea where that line is drawn. What’s doubly troubling about the show’s tone is that it’s only going to get cartoonier - this is the third episode and we have assassination by weather balloon, so where is the series going to go as it hits multiple seasons? By the time Batman shows up the show will be a full-on Schumacherian gigglefest."

    God damn, I'd love to disagree with this article, but I can't. Gotham is an unholy mess.

    I still haven't lost all hope, but so far, this show has been a 180 degree opposite to what I was expecting.