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The Savage Curtain Heroes and Villains

Spock's Barber

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
I just watched The Savage Curtain again. It's not one of my favorite episodes, but it is an interesting story of good versus evil. That being said, Kirk is a fighter and Spock is pretty formidable also. I always thought that GR should have chosen another historical figure other than Lincoln to join forces with Kirk, Spock and Surak.
 
Captain Garth? He was one of Kirk's heroes, sort of, before he lost his mind. Or how about Teddy Roosevelt or Admiral Nelson of Royal Navy fame?
 
Captain Garth? He was one of Kirk's heroes, sort of, before he lost his mind. Or how about Teddy Roosevelt or Admiral Nelson of Royal Navy fame?

Great idea! I never thought of Captain Garth, before his accident that committed him to Elba II. That would have been a great show with Garth, Roosevelt and/or Nelson it it.
 
They were probably going for a least common denominator, someone everyone in their audience would know something about.

As a kid watching the episode, I found it way cool to see Lincoln as an action hero! :lol:
 
I'm kind of surprised that GR didn't consider using Hitler or Stalin as one of the evil villains, but that was probably pushing the envelope way too much. I thought Ghengis Khan was a marginal choice for the bad guys. Kahless the Klingon was "cool" though.
 
Kahless was reduced to just one of Colonel Green's goons rather than the builder of the Klingon empire! This proves that the people that Kirk and Spock met upon the planet were just Excalbians in human form rather than creatures that truly believed they were who they said they were! I could never see Kahless being so easy to order about!
JB
 
It's sort of consistent that Kirk would "choose" somebody from the 19th century United States, because "Spectre of the Gun" establishes that he knows a lot about that time period. How likely would it be for him to be knowledgeable in more than one past century? I mean, scholars can claim to be, but Kirk is no scholar, and knows basically nothing about the 20th century United States.

Clearly, Kahless wasn't true to historical form, but I could buy Kirk thinking Kahless would be a generic goon, albeit a devious one; the Klingons he had met so far hadn't exactly convinced him with their leadership skills, just with their brutality.

Timo Saloniemi
 
This is one of those so-bad-it's-good episodes. :)

Lincoln is a curious choice, considering the fascination with him currently in film and books. He and Surak don't fit the bill, really, considering the contest. I'm not sure who to replace them with, though. Maybe somebody like General Patton?

Napoleon should have been in there somewhere - maybe with the villains as a sort of a tactician.
 
Lincoln is a curious choice, considering the fascination with him currently in film and books. He and Surak don't fit the bill, really, considering the contest. I'm not sure who to replace them with, though. Maybe somebody like General Patton?

Napoleon should have been in there somewhere - maybe with the villains as a sort of a tactician.

But the Excalbians weren't just testing fighting skills, though that was what their method boiled down to. Their stated goal was to test the relative strengths of the philosophies of good and evil, based on archetypes taken from Kirk and Spock's minds. And Kirk and Spock defined Lincoln and Surak as their archetypes of goodness, because they value freedom and peace.

The problem is that the Excalbians chose the test poorly. It isn't brute force that defines the superiority of good over evil, it's all the things that good accomplishes in other aspects of life -- the way it provides alternatives to violence, heals its victims, and so forth. Good is that which builds and heals, while evil is that which destroys for the sake of destruction. So reducing it to just "Who wins in a fight" was missing the whole point. (Pet theory: The Excalbians were actually Internet fanboys acting out a "Could Superman beat the Hulk" kind of debate.)

The other problem is with the choice of villains. The handling of Genghis Khan was deeply racist. For one thing, it's only Westerners who see him as a monster; he's a national hero in Mongolia, and the empire he built brought peace, prosperity, and free cultural exchange to much of Central Asia for generations after the violence of the conquests had ended. Basically the East sees Genghis the same way the West has historically seen Alexander the Great -- another conqueror who was extremely ruthless and brutal in building his empire but relatively benevolent toward those who accepted his rule. The main difference, of course, being that Genghis was far more successful than Alexander, building a much bigger and more enduring empire. So calling Genghis simply "evil" is an oversimplification owing more to racism than historical truth. If he was evil, then so was Alexander.

Which is the other problem: Genghis was no mere mute henchman. He would've been the most brilliant and accomplished military strategist and leader in the group. He, not Col. Green, should've been the leader. After all, Green was just some petty bigot who wanted to exterminate the impure -- not the sort who's good at working well with others who aren't like him. Genghis was the unifier of his people, as much by charisma as by force, and he welcomed religious and cultural diversity in his empire, since nomadic peoples tend to interact with a lot of different cultures and have a flexible view of the universe. So Genghis should've easily taken charge of the whole group and led them far more effectively than Green. (I'm discounting Kahless because the modern conception of the character didn't exist when the episode was written, whereas Genghis was a real historical figure.) But Green was the white guy, so he was put in charge and given all the lines.

I wonder why they didn't just make Hitler one of the bad guys. Pretty much all Americans (except the Nazi sympathizers) had seen him as the ultimate embodiment of evil ever since WWII. And there were plenty of movies and shows in the '50s and '60s that portrayed Hitler as a character. But instead they decided to go for Col. Green as a sort of Hitler surrogate, only much less menacing.
 
So calling Genghis simply "evil" is an oversimplification owing more to racism than historical truth. If he was evil, then so was Alexander.

Racist--or the Excalbians took their cues based on whatever they used as a source for their research.

Perceptions of alleged national figures can be split even in a native country. For example, Lincoln may be considered a hero / great president to certain parts of the United States, but in several southern states, he's still vilified, while the Civil War is described as the "war of northern aggression."

One could argue the Excalbians took their idea of Genghis Khan from a source leaning in one direction, just as many in today's American south take their view of Lincoln from a hostile collection of voices.

So Genghis should've easily taken charge of the whole group and led them far more effectively than Green. (I'm discounting Kahless because the modern conception of the character didn't exist when the episode was written, whereas Genghis was a real historical figure.) But Green was the white guy, so he was put in charge and given all the lines.

I took the creation of Green to be more "world building" than anything else, just as the launching of a orbital nuclear warhead platformfrom "Assignment: Earth" or Khan Noonien Singh were significant, though fictional events / characters building the world of ST.
 
I dont take the good guys / bad guys in this episode as supposed to be accurate at all. They are creations of what Kirk and Spock expected. Naturally Khaless is a cartoon bad guy and not a respected leader. That is how they envision him. Naturally Colonel Green is the leader of the group as likely there is likely ample video of him that Kirk would be familiar with and none of Genghis Khan who is just a name from history known as a "bad guy". It is the same as Spectre of the Gun. This is not time travel, not reality, it is a recreation so anything goes.
 
I dont take the good guys / bad guys in this episode as supposed to be accurate at all. They are creations of what Kirk and Spock expected. Naturally Khaless is a cartoon bad guy and not a respected leader. That is how they envision him. Naturally Colonel Green is the leader of the group as likely there is likely ample video of him that Kirk would be familiar with and none of Genghis Khan who is just a name from history known as a "bad guy". It is the same as Spectre of the Gun. This is not time travel, not reality, it is a recreation so anything goes.

Interesting view.
 
I agree with the 'shards of memory' view. Just imagine if you were in a similar scenario, and individuals from your own past were re-created, let alone historical figures. The school bully would no doubt be meaner than he actually was, and that intimidating teacher would be even more fear-inspiring.

Did Ghengis Khan or Zora actually do anything in the story?
 
I dont take the good guys / bad guys in this episode as supposed to be accurate at all. They are creations of what Kirk and Spock expected. Naturally Khaless is a cartoon bad guy and not a respected leader. That is how they envision him. Naturally Colonel Green is the leader of the group as likely there is likely ample video of him that Kirk would be familiar with and none of Genghis Khan who is just a name from history known as a "bad guy".

That's exactly my problem. Kirk has been established as a history buff. He's interested in Earth's past. And yet his image of one of the most important figures in the history of Asia is this trivializing stereotype of a virtually mute henchman? I refuse to believe that Federation history education in the 23rd century would perpetuate the ethnocentric biases of American history education in the 20th. After all, there are a lot more Asians on this planet than there are Europeans and North Americans. So a United Earth should have a less Western-biased view of its own history. (But then, Trek's "United Earth" has always been deeply Eurocentric.)

The other thing about Kirk's historical knowledge that doesn't make sense in retrospect is, how come he's never heard of Surak? The single most important figure in the history of a major Federation world, not to mention in his best friend's belief system, and Kirk doesn't know who he is?


Did Ghengis Khan or Zora actually do anything in the story?

Genghis throws a couple of rocks. Zora acts vaguely menacing a couple of times and then runs off at the end. Otherwise, they're pretty much literally spear-carriers. I guess the episode didn't have the budget to give lines to anyone but Green and Kahless (who basically acts as Green's lieutenant).

Come to think of it, even aside from what TNG built Kahless into, it would've made more sense for Kahless to be the archvillain and Green the subordinate. I mean, the Klingons had been long since established as the big bads in the Trek universe, and Kirk saw them as his worst enemies. And Kahless was explicitly described as "the Klingon who set the pattern for his planet's tyrannies." Green just led one war in Earth history, while Kahless set the stage for a whole interstellar empire. By the internal logic of the series and even the episode itself, Kahless should've been the one that Kirk envisioned as the greater threat, and thus should've been the leading member of the "evil" quartet.
 
Come to think of it, even aside from what TNG built Kahless into, it would've made more sense for Kahless to be the archvillain and Green the subordinate. I mean, the Klingons had been long since established as the big bads in the Trek universe, and Kirk saw them as his worst enemies. And Kahless was explicitly described as "the Klingon who set the pattern for his planet's tyrannies." Green just led one war in Earth history, while Kahless set the stage for a whole interstellar empire. By the internal logic of the series and even the episode itself, Kahless should've been the one that Kirk envisioned as the greater threat, and thus should've been the leading member of the "evil" quartet.

This is true, Christopher, but it brings to mind something I've long wondered about this episode: to what extent did these characters "know" who they were?

When amongst themselves, they spoke as though they actually were Kahless, Green, etc. Spock surmised that the Excalbians used their fellow creatures as "source matter". If true, did 'Yarnek' just re-arrange his fellows' atoms to create characters, or did they have any choice in the matter? There could be a big-time ruling class/subordinate situation going on, to the extent that those lower on the ladder had lives to be used according to the whims of their 'superiors'. After the contest, were their lives expunged?

If you and I were transformed into likenesses of, say, Hitler and Pol Pot, we'd no doubt have to continue to remind ourselves "Oh, wait a minute..we're supposed to be bad guys!". I doubt we'd actually take on their characteristics...unless our brains were transformed as well, in which case we'd no longer be me and you. We'd be lost in the change. We'd be little more than roosters in a cock fight.

Anyhow, my guess is that the Excalbians gave them their personalities for the purpose of the contest, and chose a leader based on which character they could obtain the greatest knowledge of.

This is funny, by the way: about fifteen years or so ago, Senator Kennedy was giving some speech or other, and quoted Lincoln. The problem was, it seems one of his staffers had inadvertently supplied him a Lincoln quote from this episode. :lol:
 
So calling Genghis simply "evil" is an oversimplification owing more to racism than historical truth. If he was evil, then so was Alexander.

Well, all conquerors (and politicians), Alexander and Chinghis included, are evil. It takes a special kind of psycho to want to rule over anyone else.

That said, I don't think that Chinghis was any worse than the others. He just happened to win. I've read a couple of bios about him, from the great Harold Lamb. He was an interesting person, and I'd love to have met him. Intelligent, cunning and with anecdotal evidence that he regretted the slaughter later in life.
 
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