Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[Guy Gardener]

You've been drinking coolaide.

There were 6 Vidiian stories. Only 5 in the first 2 seasons.

The Phage. Resolutions. Faces. Life Signs. Fury. Deadlock.

The Hirogen had three full stories and 2 more that barely counted.

Flesh and Blood, the Killing Game, Tsunkatse (barely), Prey, Hunters, Message in a Bottle (barely)

Other than Neelix in Every Episode, was there really a story about he Talaxians as a species?

Jetrel was about the war on Tallax, Mortal Coil was about Tallaxian death Rites, Tom ran away with a Tallaxian Convoy in Basics, and Neelix sold drugs with Wixiban in Fair Trade.

I wouldn't say that any of them counted as a talaxian episode more than another story where Neelix had the spotlight, but Homestead had a lot of Tallaxians in it, I suppose even if they were the scardy cat runaway dregs.

 

[MacLeod]

^That's actually six stories BTW for the Vidians. Besides I found the Vidians to be one of the more interesting Alien races created for VOY.

 

[Anwar]

Farscape is an unfair comparison, as it is a different premise for a show, lost person rather than lost ship. And that premise carried forward in to a war premise, and a whole variety of different story arcs and character arcs.

Exactly, they dropped most of Crichton's "Lost in Space" plot after S1 and replaced it with him becoming more intertwined with the Wormhole tech and Peacekeeper/Scarran War stories. They had other plots the audience accepted.

Whenever VOY did something similar (The Borg/8472 War) all they got was panning.

Also, VOY kept running in to the Borg over and over again, and the Vidiians, the Hirogen and Talaxians.

And the audience complained that they showed up more than once. But for whatever reason they never complained that Farscape's aliens kept showing up.

And, VOY had support from time to time, and the ship never showed damage, a point I'm sure has been made before.

Like I've been saying, the audience got upset anytime they managed to do any repairs at all. Otherwise they wouldn't be so upset over the ship not being wrecked all the time.

If the point is, other shows were dealing with the same premise, but VOY was handicapped by "X" because VOY had the advantage of being Star Trek.

All those other shows DROPPED the "Lost in Space" premise after a season or two, because they all realized it wasn't sustainable. Yet VOY gets trashed for similarly not sticking with it.

Star Trek had a prebuilt fan base and world to deal with. The Delta Quadrant may have been new, but Starfleet was not.

That same prebuilt audience was also ready to tear into VOY from Day One, and less accepting of anything new VOY had to add to Trek.

If the Luxans had been VOY creations, they'd just get slammed as Klingon clones. If the Sebaceans were VOY aliens, they'd get slammed as Cardassian knock-offs, etc.

VOY's situation was much more "No Win" than the other shows.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^That's actually six stories BTW for the Vidians. Besides I found the Vidians to be one of the more interesting Alien races created for VOY.

Thank you.

 

[fireproof78]

Farscape is an unfair comparison, as it is a different premise for a show, lost person rather than lost ship. And that premise carried forward in to a war premise, and a whole variety of different story arcs and character arcs.

Exactly, they dropped most of Crichton's "Lost in Space" plot after S1 and replaced it with him becoming more intertwined with the Wormhole tech and Peacekeeper/Scarran War stories. They had other plots the audience accepted.

Whenever VOY did something similar (The Borg/8472 War) all they got was panning.

Also, VOY kept running in to the Borg over and over again, and the Vidiians, the Hirogen and Talaxians.

And the audience complained that they showed up more than once. But for whatever reason they never complained that Farscape's aliens kept showing up.



Like I've been saying, the audience got upset anytime they managed to do any repairs at all. Otherwise they wouldn't be so upset over the ship not being wrecked all the time.

If the point is, other shows were dealing with the same premise, but VOY was handicapped by "X" because VOY had the advantage of being Star Trek.

All those other shows DROPPED the "Lost in Space" premise after a season or two, because they all realized it wasn't sustainable. Yet VOY gets trashed for similarly not sticking with it.

Star Trek had a prebuilt fan base and world to deal with. The Delta Quadrant may have been new, but Starfleet was not.

That same prebuilt audience was also ready to tear into VOY from Day One, and less accepting of anything new VOY had to add to Trek.

If the Luxans had been VOY creations, they'd just get slammed as Klingon clones. If the Sebaceans were VOY aliens, they'd get slammed as Cardassian knock-offs, etc.

VOY's situation was much more "No Win" than the other shows.

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one. In fact, it won awards, and still has several fan positive reviews, even now, when it is more vogue to trash Berman's run of Trek.

VOY didn't add anything new to Trek beyond aliens of the week. The "Lost Ship" premise didn't work out, because it was never done, save for a handful of episodes (Year of Hell, Scorpion, among others). VOY abandoned the "Lost Ship" motif by episode 2, going for the "anomaly of the week" theme, with little more than lip serviced to being stranded.

The idea that aliens shouldn't recur, seems to be little more than an artificial box of why people don't like VOY, but I think it is just an expression of a larger problem, that VOY never fully addressed the concept of being lost, but promised it would be different.

So, my dissatisfaction comes largely from an unfulfilled premise that never addressed. and a formulaic premise that was inconsistent with the established theme. Anger towards fans may be understandable, but the fans expectations were not unreasonable given the presentation of VOY as something new. When it wasn't new, and bought in to the TNG formula, then people would be frustrated because it wasn't what they were told, and then frustrated because the show was inconsistent.

Looks like the fans can't win either

 

[Tosk]

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one.

It all depends on the people who were in the room when you watched it, apparently. "The fans" have hated every step of the way, and would have hated any alternate approaches that might have been taken too. Case closed.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one.

It all depends on the peiople who were in the room when you watched it, apparently. "The fans" have hated every step of the way, and would have hated any alternate approaches that might have been taken too. Case closed.

You, sir, win this thread

 

[Anwar]

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one.

Sure they do. The general attitude the show gets suggests that.

VOY abandoned the "Lost Ship" motif by episode 2, going for the "anomaly of the week" theme, with little more than lip serviced to being stranded.

There wasn't that much the "Lost Ship" plot could've added in the first place, especially since "Lost Ship" was already done a couple of times in TOS and TNG. The concept had already been explored.

The idea that aliens shouldn't recur, seems to be little more than an artificial box of why people don't like VOY, but I think it is just an expression of a larger problem, that VOY never fully addressed the concept of being lost, but promised it would be different.

Again, unsustainable concept. Bigger problem was that they didn't think of a different plot to replace it with.

Anger towards fans may be understandable

Perfectly understandable.

but the fans expectations were not unreasonable given the presentation of VOY as something new. When it wasn't new, and bought in to the TNG formula, then people would be frustrated because it wasn't what they were told, and then frustrated because the show was inconsistent.

They were unreasonable if they thought they could get 7 years worth of stories about the "Lost Ship" while sticking 100% to the "Lost Ship with no friends or allies ever" thing.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one.

Sure they do. The general attitude the show gets suggests that.

VOY abandoned the "Lost Ship" motif by episode 2, going for the "anomaly of the week" theme, with little more than lip serviced to being stranded.

There wasn't that much the "Lost Ship" plot could've added in the first place, especially since "Lost Ship" was already done a couple of times in TOS and TNG. The concept had already been explored.



Again, unsustainable concept. Bigger problem was that they didn't think of a different plot to replace it with.

Anger towards fans may be understandable

Perfectly understandable.

but the fans expectations were not unreasonable given the presentation of VOY as something new. When it wasn't new, and bought in to the TNG formula, then people would be frustrated because it wasn't what they were told, and then frustrated because the show was inconsistent.

They were unreasonable if they thought they could get 7 years worth of stories about the "Lost Ship" while sticking 100% to the "Lost Ship with no friends or allies ever" thing.

Lost ship, as this thread has discussed, is not sustainable, but that doesn't mean you can't add to it, anymore than Lost didn't add to the idea, or Farscape, or Stargate: Universe, etc.

The fact is, VOY had the opportunity to create drama, real drama, with the interaction of the Maquis crew, the discovery of the mysteries of the Delta Quadrant, much in the way the Gamma Quadrant was treated in early DS9. You have conflict built in, that doesn't have to last, but shouldn't it matter, at some point?

If the production staff did not have something to replace the plot with, that is not the fault of the audience. At all. Anger towards the audience is understandable, but it is not rational to heap all of the blame on them. The audience was presented with a different product than was produced. If the production team was not prepared to fulfill the plot, or replace it, then they cannot toss that on the audience, any more than a student who fails an exam can blame someone else when they did not study.

The general attitude towards VOY is disappointment, not hatred. The show could have been a lot more, as could have been ENT, but suffered from formulaic repetition. It suffered because the character chemistry didn't work for some viewers. If it seems more negative than most it is because some of the shorts were cheap rip-offs of TNG or poorly thought through villains with no motivation. Or it focused on on the wrong aspects, with character arcs that were trivial, or holonovels that were diversionary in a show trying to find its footing.

As I have said from the beginning, I don't hate VOY. It had potential and it did not live up to it.

 

[MacLeod]

You know I seem to remember that before DSN even aired there were lots of fans saying Star Trek on a space station that'll never work, but they found a way to work and sure some of the audiance didn't like it, parts of it or the direction it took which is fine we all like different things.

But the simple fact is that at the end of the day VOY playe it safe and stuck largely to what had worked before, at a time when audiance tastes were shifting towards a slightly different approach, simply put ST didn't move with the times. As others have said non of this is the fault of the audiance, it's the fault of network/studio.

Sure doing something different is risky as it can backfire, but it can also earn points for trying.

But when we watch a show any show or hear about a new show we might like, we have certain expectations going into it. If we have high expectations we can be more easily dissapointed conversely low expectations mean we aare more likely to be pleased.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, these points keep getting raised, yet the facts do not support the idea that VOY was "hated or panned" from day one.

It all depends on the peiople who were in the room when you watched it, apparently. "The fans" have hated every step of the way, and would have hated any alternate approaches that might have been taken too. Case closed.

You, sir, win this thread

Perhaps a more general thread, "why do Star Trek fans hate Star Trek?"

Every new incarnation of the franchise gets the same treatment. Voyager's scorn is almost forgotten in the wake of Enterprise and the reboot movies. It's kind of hard to imagine that the classic movies were once shunned by some as untrue continuations of the original series which ruined the characters and setting...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

This idea that Trek fans are automatically negative to anything Trek is nonsense. People have been generally positive toward the Abrams movies. The fact that they have a list of legitimate criticisms which they talk about on message boards doesn't mean that it was 'Panned'.

I can only refer to my own experience. When Voyager was first coming out, I was defending it and nearly all my Trekkie friends hated it. And every single person I've talked to who discovered DS9 long after it came out liked it, whereas almost every single person I've met who discovered Voyager long after it come out hated it (Outside TrekBBS of course).

DS9 may have gotten criticisms when it came out because well, if all you have to go on is the first season it doesn't come off as that great. But the fact is most people didn't like Voyager, and it's dickish to dismiss their legitimate criticisms by some claim that Trek fans love to hate everything Trek indescriminantly.

 

[Anwar]

Lost ship, as this thread has discussed, is not sustainable, but that doesn't mean you can't add to it, anymore than Lost didn't add to the idea, or Farscape, or Stargate: Universe, etc.

Like I said, anytime they tried to do anything new (Scorpion, The Void) they just got panned and critiqued for not sticking to the "Lost Ship" premise even though that premise was unsustainable. So they got panned no matter what.

You have conflict built in, that doesn't have to last, but shouldn't it matter, at some point?

Yes, but it's still not sustainable for more than 1 season or so.

If the production staff did not have something to replace the plot with, that is not the fault of the audience.

It is if they hated every attempt at adding to the premise. Especially compared to the easy time shows like Farscape had doing the same thing.

If it seems more negative than most it is because some of the shorts were cheap rip-offs of TNG or poorly thought through villains with no motivation. Or it focused on on the wrong aspects, with character arcs that were trivial, or holonovels that were diversionary in a show trying to find its footing.

Even though other shows got away with the same stuff.

I was defending it and nearly all my Trekkie friends hated it. And every single person I've talked to who discovered DS9 long after it came out liked it, whereas almost every single person I've met who discovered Voyager long after it come out hated it (Outside TrekBBS of course).

Exactly, they hated VOY for existing at all.

But the fact is most people didn't like Voyager

Because it existed. Like I've been saying.

 

[Tosk]

Now we are all sons of bitches.

 

[Melakon]

For all the complaining fans did about there not being any women captains, when we finally got Voyager, they complained that the captain wasn't a man. I must be one of the few people who actually liked the show, so it's surprising it lasted 7 years.

 

[fireproof78]

Lost ship, as this thread has discussed, is not sustainable, but that doesn't mean you can't add to it, anymore than Lost didn't add to the idea, or Farscape, or Stargate: Universe, etc.

Like I said, anytime they tried to do anything new (Scorpion, The Void) they just got panned and critiqued for not sticking to the "Lost Ship" premise even though that premise was unsustainable. So they got panned no matter what.

You have conflict built in, that doesn't have to last, but shouldn't it matter, at some point?

Yes, but it's still not sustainable for more than 1 season or so.

It is if they hated every attempt at adding to the premise. Especially compared to the easy time shows like Farscape had doing the same thing.

Even though other shows got away with the same stuff.

I was defending it and nearly all my Trekkie friends hated it. And every single person I've talked to who discovered DS9 long after it came out liked it, whereas almost every single person I've met who discovered Voyager long after it come out hated it (Outside TrekBBS of course).

Exactly, they hated VOY for existing at all.

But the fact is most people didn't like Voyager

Because it existed. Like I've been saying.

I will reiterate that Scorpion received some of the best reviews and ratings in the show's run. The "panning or hatred" is not in evidence. VOY doesn't get a poor review everywhere: in the process of researching this for posting in this discussion, I have discovered many fans who love and enjoy VOY, and state it as a favorite among Trek series. There is a great deal of interest in VOY for some of its different takes in a variety of episodes, so this universal hatred is far from universal.

VOY didn't attempt the lost ship scenario, except in lip service and the rare episodes, so I do not know what would have been if they had done so. It might have lasted 1 season or 4, given the different taste of the audience. The problem is that it did a "Lost Ship" premise, and the inherent weakness in that premise failed the show. It's that it never attempted the premise.

Drama is built upon conflict, which is something that TNG struggled with in the beginning, but was able to move past, but VOY never really learned that lesson. Instead, all the crewmembers toed the line, and Janeway expected all members to give unyielding loyalty and fall in line. Well, that really isn't that interesting of characters to have everyone respecting the Starfleet regs and rarely stepping out of line for fear of retribution.

Now, as for other shows, I am confused that Farscape had an easy time and yet was canceled for its premise. While these two concepts are not inherently contradictory, it is an odd conclusion to make that a show had it easy, and yet still failed. Farscape took its premise and character arcs and let them grow and mature, sometimes good and sometimes bad. The first reason really struggled to find its footing but did so with some more fantastic aliens and designs. It was unique, but not flawless.

VOY did not utilize its unique premise, and universe, to form any advantage in a changing market. You cannot fault the audience for that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Scorpion had four months of expensive advertising about a hot blonde Borg that was going to fuck and/or kill everyone to prep the world for it's arrival.

There was a bump, before the decline to wards zero viewers continued.

 

[dub]

For all the complaining fans did about there not being any women captains, when we finally got Voyager, they complained that the captain wasn't a man.

Wait - did that really happen? Did a lot of people complain specifically because the captain wasn't a man? I can certainly see a few goofy loud-mouth trolls saying that, but I can't imagine any more than that. I wasn't in the loop with the fans back then though.

 

[dub]

There was a bump, before the decline to wards zero viewers continued.

If memory serves, it was actually two rather large bumps.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I must be one of the few people who actually liked the show, so it's surprising it lasted 7 years.

You know, I've come to the conclusion that VOY is a case of "Germans love David Hasselhoff" - "where interest in a character (or an entire work) is sparked by an audience well-divorced from the production source, particularly if the show is released in other countries."

Ever since I moved to Germany, I found out that a lot of people don't like ST in general, but they do like VOY...and even among ST fans, VOY seems to be the most popular ST show in the country. No idea why.

Oh, and yes, it's flawed, sure, but I like it.